lol mvm

if u dont have 5 friends to play mvm thats prolly a bigger problem than someone teaching a less optimal way to shoot robots

I do play with 5 friends regulary, also i pub. You are just seeing it one sided, but think about all the other angles.

Sounds like you just wanted you or your buddies from the MVM forum you linked to be the teachers. I'm having a hard time finding a different point from your posts, one which you didn't contradict. "It's not about hours.. it's not about the meta, just do it right."

Why would you assume i want to be a teacher? I never suggested one, i never suggest one of my "buddies". All i want is that there isn't false information, which unfortunately happened a lot.

And i want to really know where i contradict myself. Quote me on that.

I wondered myself why noone else did a complain. Now i know why.

Going with randoms is always going to be a risk. There's nothing there that can be taught.

...Yes it is. That's why it's called the Meta. It doesn't always revolve around the Medic, either. Example: 5 Pyros + Engineer at the end of Hamlet Hostility. The easiest way to achieve the goal.

So you're jealous you weren't reached out to because you're nobody. And yes, by your demeanor, you're the plague on the community, not the community.

Great, that's what I'm getting at. You were making a point of saying that Ceejaey and the others follow the meta or "offer bad advice". There is no bad advice if it shows results.

Also, if I wanted to impress you, you'd have to be worth it first.

There is no "right" way to play MvM. As long as you produce results; fine. The meta is the easiest way to produce results. Once new players understand that meta and understand the maps, waves and how to play more, they can break off and play MvM in whatever way they want.

I see what kind of MvM player you are now after this entire post though. You're the "if they're not playing it my way, they're wrong". Shut the fuck up lmao.

EDIT: If you'd like to quote some "false information", I will happily tell you to shut the fuck up lmao again. I got all night.

Why am I even talking about MvM this hard fuck me

As someone one who attended the course and whose MvM experience before that was just "SHOOT THE BOTS", I learned quite a lot. I also think mainly teaching the meta wasn't a big deal at all, since it was mentioned often enough that you can pretty much run anything you want as long as you can make it work. My perception of the meta now, is that it's a solid strategy that you can just reliably fall back on whenever you don't feel like getting creative.

Here's the thing about the MvM Subforum...yeah most of them are pretentious a**holes and what not, but its mainly because they know what they're doing and get annoyed when day after day, week after week, there are idiots flooding in about meta and "i got kicked for no reason" and what not.

I'm not saying the class was all bad, dont get me wrong, but there were just a few things that threw me off a bit, mainly about Pyro.

If they had done their research, they would have known that airblast was "fixed" when the scorch shot bug got fixed as well, but they went on and said that pyro can airblast giants back. Uh no they cant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v_uGxfMnzE (as you can see here, he has max airblast on...yeah its definitely pushing the giant back. you can see that the giant has to be in a certain running animation to have some semblance of airblast, but that's with max force)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_r1wfAqv8w (this is a giant heavy. you remember airblasting these back? Yeah look at it now)

Now of course, steel gauntlets and normal bots are fine, but now instead of having to airblast giants, the pyro can be more of a damage class than "Pyro is only good for airblast durr"

I could go on through the video of the class and see what else is wrong, but i dont feel like it.

The class is mainly designed for those new to MvM, that's it. Those who are more knowledgeable in the game mode see it for what it is. If there's an advanced MvM course, i rather take it from the MvM subforum than here...that's all i'm going to say about it.

As one of the Teachers in the MvM event I'm disappointed you (Eye) didn't just sign up for the course and possibly start a discussion by asking intelligent questions during the Q&A section of the class..

Also the lesson plan I wrote for the class can be read back here: http://pastebin.com/zbrhb8zv
If this information I posted is wrong I'd like to hear it, but I don't think there is much (if at all anything) wrong with what was used.

This is exactly the reason NOT to play this gamemode, it is buggy as fuck, everyone and even Valve knows. Hunting down bugs won't complete missions, that's what bootcamp is for, dick around and see what you can find broken with the game.

Before Two Cities, the basic class setup was: Scout, Pyro, Soldier, Engineer, Heavy and Demoman. The community back then was quite loose back then if it comes to variety, because it worked all the same, and it was for fun.

After Two Cities got released, and with it the Australium hype and grinding quirk started, the more famous and comp players started with MvM. Since they weren't that experienced in the gamemode, and didnt played much before it, the Meta was invented. It replaced the Pyro.
The Medic became a massive failsafe for the whole team. Bad game play and upgrade paths began sprouting, individuality and adaptivity vanished nearly completely. Some teams are hopeless without a Medic.
But even with all that above, many teams would be better off with something that isn't the Meta. People get forced into classes and roles they are not familiar with. It creates a boring gameplay.

MvM is about roles, not classes.
Money collection (Mostly Spy and Scout)
Area control (Sniper, Demoman, Soldier, partway Pyro and Engineer)
Medic killing (Sniper, Demoman)
Ammo Supply (Engineer)
Single target (Heavy, Spy, Engineer, Pyro)
Optional Tank Duty (Soldier, Engineer, Pyro)

If you have the roles set, its a easy win.

God forbid having me a editing Error because english isn't my native language. Fixed it in the quote.
Why would you assume i would be jealous? I once again said i don't care being a teacher.

Never assumed nor implied he is following the Meta. He simply used the meta as base of his stream.
Bad advice in bad/inferior playstyles, that can hinder a team easily if wrongly used.

Is there any reason to be a complete jerk? If i come over as one, sorry, i didn't mean it. Am i not allowed to complain anymore? I have to bend to everyone others superiors will and be silent?

Neither did i mentioned that there is a right way to play MvM. I want a right way to teach players. Orientating on the Meta isn't the right way. People shouldn't be teached to a specific playstyle. Once again as explained above, Meta isnt the easiest way. And MvM is more about grinding tours and getting loot. Its about fun, but as it looks like, some have a different fun than me, i have to excuse myself.

And you ESPECIALLY strike me as a Two Citie players that doesn't know anything else than Two Cities. A Player, that would kick a Spy Sniper or Pyro on sight, and bitching about anything that differs to the Meta loadout.
Once F*CKING again, i do want them to be teached right.
I also do not force any kind of player on my playstyle. They can do whatever they wan't they simply require to carry theyre own weight in a game.
You also do not need to throw insults. I didn't do it either, and id hoped i would find mature people to discuss with, which you just completely ruined.

Some i will list out of my brain. Wont watch the stream again.

- Airblast is currently glitched. You cannot airblast Giants anymore. Even with full airblast force, you lift them barely up in the air, to a point where its simply not noticable.
- Beggars Bazooka should be used as tap firing. Its the most efficient way to play the weapon.
Loading up barrages and firing them is VERY money intensive and brings actually a lower sustained damage.
This may sound opinionated, but its a fact.
- Spy is a most powerful class in the game. Using him to sap robots and backstabbing small medics is a waste of class spot. Use a Sniper or Demoman for it. Much more effective and hell of a lot more reliable than a spy.
He can destroy Giants in seconds and take out high priority and tanky robots. (Gauntlet heavys, big huntsman sniper)
- Scout can use his gun excellent, and can be upgraded too. You can contribute much to the team if you actually shoot and deal damage as scout.
- Rocket specialist lets you deal Base damage, and that only to the target you directly hit. He said maximum damage, which isnt. You still have a 25% ramp up. Didnt even knew about that the splash damage is still suffering from fall off.
- Tanks Minigun damage is barely and bad explained. Easiest way is to say: "He deals 75% less damage on a tank with his Minigun"

I got vote kicked off a server for upgrading pipes once.

The Timezones are sometimes counterproductive, and i am not everywhere in the vast community TF2 has to offer.
Furthermore, after i got just bashed, i didnt regret doing it.

I can skim through if you want. Should i comment here, or do we do it over steam in a chat? So it we can discuss it a little better without spamming here to much.

Um.. we do not hinder anyone in completing tours.
- Either, we are 6 people pre made and join a Mann Up/Boot Camp, so there is no random that can be bothered
- We have actually some servers that run MvM Vanilla, and MvM fixed. (http://sigpipe.info is a player that hosts a mvm server with tweaks and fixes)

Testing will be done in enclosed servers.

Eye, read the post above you, read the lesson plan I wrote and then feel free to delete your entire post again. Going into specifics about certain upgrades/class roles is not the best way to teach people who are new to the gamemode.

Airblast still resets the bomb if carried by smaller bots, Beggar's was explained you need to tap and buy reload/firing speed, if you're a newbie scout it is more important to focus on resistances and getting the money than dealing damage, damage falloff on splash with rocket specialist is less important than actually buying the damn upgrade to negate the falloff on the actual rocket you shoot (+stun).

Mentioning heavy is shit against tank is also very counterproductive, you better have a heavy shooting the tank than soloing front, dying and making you lose money because you're playing with random people and an inexperienced scout.

I wont delete/rewrite my post, because the stream also explained advanced and experienced playstyles.
Also, you look to much into my post.
- I only explained that Airblast isnt working against giants, (which they said in the stream it would)
- I did not said he should buy weapon upgrades before resistance. The stream disregarded his damage capability. After upgrading the most important resistances and mobility upgrades, you can easily put something in the gun to deal damage. Many missions offer a good amount of money. That automatically indicates torwards late game, were money becomes less and less important.
- Maybe i did overboard with the splash damage, but still. Rocket specialist should be mainly used to have that base damage on every range bonus. That is already the most important part about it. Slowing Giants and stunning robots is a nice side effect.
- I did not say Heavy is shit. I said he just deals 75% less damage on a tank. Thats all about it. He can still dish out quite some damage, but can probably not keep up with other classes. In some cases, its even smart to have a Heavy following the tank. Hamlet Hostility and Bavarian Botbash can be a good example.

I am just amazed that people feel this strongly about mvm

I know you're a teacher and all that but i looked through the pastebin myself and considering i'm not as experienced as Eye or most others here, this is my perspective.

Its too general. That's right. the bloody lesson plan is too bloody general. I'm gonna go through this class by class.

Scout: Ok this i can somewhat agree with since i'm still considered a meta scout. The loadout i go with is soda popper, milk, and fan, for obvious reasons. With the soda popper, i can have multiple jumps which helps me skip jump height for a wave or two (before i realize mannhattan's a butt with the walls), and we know what the other two do. The problem is that i've seen so many scouts forgo resistances, maxing out their milk early (even if no super scouts), that its counterproductive.

Soldier: General info would have been more useful in this situation. Usually the most primaries they go for is Black Box (Heal Per Hit, though nerf or fixed, idk), Stock, or Beggars. Beggars is usually more DPS on tap fire rather than barrage due to trying to aim per rocket verses taking a crap shoot on 3 rockets with the deviation. Also with the hidden game stat of firing speed for Beggar's, that's what most will go for. The banners would have been more precise in explaining.

Conch: Healing and Speed Boost (35% health gained based on damage)

Buff Banner: Mini-Crits within a given radius

Backup: 35% resistances on all fronts, 50% sentry resistance, negates mini-crits and crit hits.

And only ONE rocket specialist on ANY rocket launcher. One is all you need, and those who get more than that are just wasting it. Also please dont clip size on beggars..seriously.

Demoman: Only thing i have here is that crit stickies are overrated.

Heavy: I'm actually an advocate Natascha user cause i dont trust my team with super scouts, plus with the 20% bonus resistance, its a good tanker. As long as you're up close, damage is damage.

Demo/Heavy Tank note: Contrary to popular belief, Demo/Heavy/Engineer basically have around the same DPS on tanks (based on full firing speed, etc) though the Engi gets an one up if Wrangler is involved. I've seen so many times of "Demo and Soldier on tank" that its ridiculous.

Pyro: Phlog for tanks, Backburner for mainly mannhattan. Resistances are nice, but one of Pyro's main attributes revolves around aggro: if the bots cant see you, you cant get hit. Its an amazing thing.

Engineer: i dont really have much to say, its about spot on.

Medic: Dont play the class that much, i just know people have gotten used to it.

Sniper: Jarate is nice, but Cozy Camper makes me steady.

Spy: I dont play the class either but i know its power potential, lord knows i've seen it from Eye.

(Its more of a how we want to play and what works for us rather than trying to make the other see our views. I'm honestly being as nice as i possibly can right now cause i dont want to seem like a douche. I tried to read everything i could on this game mode to be informed and i dont finish as many tours as i should because i'm tired of dealing with randoms with crappy upgrades and even crappier attitudes all because they want shiny pixels)

eye you come off as really egotistical here, especially when you say that you can skim through the lesson plan if wiethoofd wants as if he is asking you for approval when in reality he is giving you the lesson plan so you can learn what the point of the course was...

helix the point of the lesson plan is to be general, it is a basics course. i am sure that if you asked for an advanced course from the same people they could school you hard. youre trying to demonstrate superior knowledge over a lesson plan for newbies - like if you walked into a third grade math class and said "oh yeah? well i know algebra! get at me teacher!"

You guys remembered that it is for the absolute newbies and there's no point in telling them too much because it'll overload them right

All i said was that it was too general and that a little more clarity would have been nice.

Did i say i'm perfect? Hell no. There are times i do everything right and there's that one guy killing everything.

There's also a difference between those who want to learn how it works and those who have their head shoved far up their ass that they THINK they know everything and dont listen to other people trying to help them.

I have no issues willing to learn shit but some people go it their own way...if you read my earlier posts, i said the class is for what it is: a guide for new people to learn. Those who are more knowledgeable see it for what it is. Do i think its helpful for new people? Yes. Do i think there could have been more clarity on certain roles/weapons? Probably. Did i cringe when they got to spy? I dont even play it, but i couldnt watch it after that.

I spent time on my own looking up loadouts, class roles, and working on upgrade paths for myself so i could learn to improve and be able to possibly carry my team. Countless hours on my own looking this crap up, so maybe it does seem i have a superiority complex. I dont expect them to know everything, but to do their damn job. That's all i ask for. When you see two pyros on big rock unable to take on one tank, you're gonna get frustrated. When you see a team get stuck on the final wave of hamlet (that's right, the 3 tank wave) for 30 minutes, you're gonna get frustrated. You can learn everything and all that but it dont mean jack crap if the other 5 dont want to learn.

I'm getting into an argument on the internet, this is not how i wanted to spend my day.

If the biggest complaint about the event was that the MvM class with the subtitle "Learn the Current MvM Meta" taught the meta too much, then the event was a success in my book. There's always something to complain about, I guess.

Highlights/ VODs will be uploaded to TF2Stadium starting heavily in a couple weeks when school lets out. Class is currently all-consuming, though. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmTlIBjBtZRE1ObHSPmNN0g

I'm just going to say this finally and be done with it.

Yes, the class is helpful to those who are willing to learn. As close minded as it seemed to be, it had some relevant information for those who are new to the game mode.

Yes, the game mode isnt what it used to be, especially when Two Cities came around and people played for loot rather than for the fun and experience, and i can live with that.

I only have about 50-60 combined tours, but in those tours, i've seen so many things. I've seen scouts upgrade their fan o war, soldiers maxing out damage on rocket jumper, tomislav heavies, engies at spawn, and pyros that die in one hit cause they dont know what aggro is.

Could they be taught? No one knows. That's the beauty of the human condition: the power to learn and the power of stubbornness.

Am i stubborn? Of course i am, i'm from Texas. That state is full of stubborn people, but i'm willing to learn.

Its not a matter of who can learn, its a matter of if they're willing to learn. If you get at least 10 people that looked at this stream and go "hey this is some good stuff, i should try that and get better", then your job is done. Congratulations, you helped someone in MvM. But that's the deal...its a basic help. That's how i see it.

The class is a way to show the Meta and some deviations in the case of new people playing MvM...and that's great. I'm not doubting it for a second...it just seems barren. I mean, yeah MvM has a lot of info that you have to cram into an hour or so, and if that was the case, i understand.

I'm rambling again so i'll try to finish this off: I'm done arguing. I'm not gonna put myself into a position or corner trying to defend myself or justify my posts because it doesnt agree with someone. I'm not like the people who could watch the stream and learn. I had to learn basically on my own. I asked for help on forums, i looked up guides, i stared at the wiki for hours on end while i filled a notebook (or two) with notes on classes, weapons, upgrade paths, and bomb paths for the sake of myself.

It got so nuts that i even had a few of my friends irl ask me for suggestions on certain situations. It took me over a year to consider Mecha Engine in my arsenal and now i end up getting invited to Expert games or into servers for custom missions that actually make you think.

The class is a viable situation to learn, but there is so much out there to take in that you never know where people are gonna actually learn from....that's all i have to say, sorry for the rambling nonsense...i had to get it off my chest. Its why i'm frustrated over this stuff...

Lemme just leave this Reddit thread and head back to tftv.

owait.

Teamfortress.TV "Home of all the MvM sperg you can ever handle"

Are we being trolled right now because I am having an internal crisis as to whether I should plus frag or minus frag here.

man i wish i could get invited to expert games.

no one wants to MVM with dancenumber ;_;

When has the meaning of trolling turned into "having a different opinion"

what's mvm?

Guess I'll respond here.

Do you know the reason I am "known"? It's because I've streamed MvM (ie, 90%+ of my streams are MvM) for the past 2-3 years. I was solo-queing and showing people how to play each class on Expert. Please don't be derogatory when you clearly have no idea who I am or what my background is.

True, I've played with people with 100+ tours who don't understand the basics. But between the four of us, having over 1000 tours - most of those played 'outside of the meta' - I dunno. Seems like you'd say the same if I had low tours.

Your race analogy doesn't really work either, considering we actually had to beat records (and others have attempted to beat ours since). Sure, there isn't a huge community doing it, but it exists. If you actually watch any of the runs, you'll see we have specific strats per map in order to beat them quickly. Double Engie, 5 Soldiers, whatever suits the layout of the mission.

Just seems you like you had a specific person or people in mind, or dislike me in particular, and because of this approached the whole class with negativity.

Of course we knew that. But if a Super Scout is running past with the bomb, what do you do? Yell "Oh well airblast is broken lads ¯\_(ツ)_/¯" or use the airblast to stun and hold in place? It's common sense at the end of the day, you advise the new people on what to do. We didn't have time to say "This is broken, etc". We just told them what they should do in the situation.

Isn't that was it was supposed to be? After Kresnik/Kevin asked me to do this, I asked them what they wanted. They said they wanted the basics, the bare-bones of MvM - all packed into an hour segment. And that's what we had in the class - hell we even had someone ask how to access MvM on the menu. Given an hour limit (which we ran over anyway) we felt it best to try and do what we could on each class. We talked about how the "meta" is, but emphasised that it isn't the be-all and end-all. We could have talked about Bison soldiers and upgrading Primary on Scout - but do you really want your next random MvM game with brand new players to be filled with Scouts who do nothing but run around shooting - missing money, not milking robots? The key aim was to talk about the basic points - from there, once you have those down, you are free to embellish as you please.

The basic class setup in Expert, before Two Cities, used two Heavies and no Soldier. Playing with friends sure, we would experiment, but in random/pub gameplay, two Heavies were used.

Pretty sure that's exactly what we covered? Sure, we went class-by-class, but the emphasis was on the roles - ie, we consistently mentioned that a Sniper can replace a demoman as they utilise the same 'role' within the team.

Like I said - that was it's purpose. The class was designed to help people who didn't know what to do MvM. People who are new to the mode. Someone in our class didn't know the mode existed, thought it was some custom mode; now he wants to try it because he is interested due to the class. These are the people who the lesson plan aimed at. Not the people who have played the mode a lot and want to nitpick at the basics.

Let's put it this way - there was a class for Highlander Medic. I play Medic on a Prem HL team. I did not watch that class, because it was not aimed at me. The same applies here - if you all are just so damn good at MvM, why are you watching a newbie class?

If there is one thing I wanted people to take from this class - it was this, so I'm really pleased with this feedback. We talked about each class, how even the less-used ones can be useful, but at the end of the day if you have the basic knowledge, you can adapt it to however you want to play.

At the end of the day I work 11 hours a day, lead and organise a Highlander and 6v6 team, and at short notice (and with massive help from my friends - Wiet, Seal & Asaaj) put together a lesson plan and put on this class. The people present enjoyed it, and if they feel comfortable playing MvM now with that knowledge, good for them, the class worked. Want me to go into more detail, talk about non-meta strats? Give me more than a 1-hour time slot and ask for that. Or, hell, watch my stream. I play enough of the fucking game mode on there.

Sorry to those expecting more in-depth analysis. Maybe the title of "MasterClass" was misleading to those expecting more. Myself and Wiet can (and have) talked for a hell of a long time about the different tidbits you can tweak in MvM. It's an ever-evolving game mode. I'm just disappointed most of the feedback on the class is "This was so basic, I know so much more about MvM than you". If that's the way you feel, good for you.

..I never said i knew more MvM than you...all i said was that it was too basic and maybe a bit of time (not even 5 minutes) of maybe explaining the virtues of some weapons and it would have been fine. The spy situation is debatable (its more of class potential vs skill level on that one) and that's fine.

I said numerous times that its designed for newer players, and it did its job...i just feel (opinion) that it just doesnt seem enough...and i tried to enter the class to see how it was in the beginning, but like most of the people who tried that i know, it wouldnt let us. If we had gotten in, we might have said something of a discussion topic. Since we were only able to watch it after the fact, our opinions might be seemed as bias.

There are some things we agree with and some things we dont agree with: i'm not disputing that and i dont feel like arguing with it. That's beside the point.

I honestly havent really heard of you, CeeJaey, or really watched your videos. I might have heard something about you with scorch shot pyro, and that's probably it. I watch others of course, so that could be an obvious reason as well.

I have no issue with high tours doing classes like this to teach newer and inexperienced ones...i have said that a few times...and i'm sorry most of the feedback is about how it was too basic.

Maybe if we could all have a nice discussion to where opinions wouldnt be dissected and bashed on both ends, we wouldnt seem like asshats all the damn time.