anytime

coming heavily from fighting games, "I don't like it" isn't even remotely a good argument, and sounds more like the moans of someone who can't be bothered to adapt. up until the game's pace breaks as hard as quick fix on gullywash, this is irrelevant to any real design, as there's a lot of balanced things in competitive games that perhaps you don't want to deal with

phlog is a good example of this; yeah, it's a pretty terribly designed weapon, but that's against pyro's favor because it completely guts the one reason anyone would ever use him, the airblast

You know tide turner is worse then chargin' targe right? Chargin' targe give more resistant, and people dont actually use the shield to demoknight they use it for the resistant and use pipes

well as of the last update, you're wrong :)

I think I'd still use pistol/winger over the guillotine. Either a scout uses the pistol for guaranteed clean-up kills and high damage output, or he uses the winger for a movement increase. I think the guillotine would be more comparable to the stock pistol, as it serves no purpose other than to output damage. Following that line of thought, I'd much rather have my secondary be a hitscan weapon and not a projectile for assured damage (even if the pistol has a really RNG spread).

I think the main reason something like the guillotine would be banned is it's comparable to just about every projectile in Overwatch - it's a projectile, but not really. You predict movement like you would with any other projectile, but it moves so quickly and it's barely visible, so dodging it as you would against rockets or pipes isn't nearly as possible. The guillotine is that kind of weapon that isn't fun to play against, because you can be a soldier spamming a choke to gain control, and a second later be bleeding and confused. Or you could be running away as a medic, trying to save your charge or escape a push, and then a second later you're bleeding from a scout that threw an invisible blade across the entire map.

I think this falls in line with the whitelist problem that's plagued competitive since the addition of weapons like this. A lot of these weapons - guillotine, sandman, quickfix, the bat that gives you extra jumps, the bonk - are just not fun to play against. And they reward styles of play that aren't necessarily the most skillful. Imagine sandman in competitive? That would be a legitimate way to push a map during a stalemate. Can't get through the granary door? Keep lobbing baseballs through the small window until you catch a demo or soldier. The donk uses this same strategy on cp_granary, and you really can't use the argument the other team should push, because the map is a deathtrap for anyone who pushes out of that position. So either you hope you get lucky and don't take a donk or baseball while spamming, or you fall back and give the pushing team a free means of taking ground. Valve has to do a lot of work with these blacklisted weapons to make them fun to play against and give them a place in a competitive shooter.

What was in the update?

fire and explosion resistance got decreased for targe

it was an accidental nerf that slightly took away explosive/fire resistance, and it's already fixed

So we can agree that chargin targe is better ?

It made Viaduct week hell against anyone with a decent sniper.
Remove Viaduct or remove the camper.

they nerfed the reduced damage while taunting from 90% to 75% since then

Panic Attack - In the right hands a Roamer could drop in on a medic and blast them full of buckshot. Technically making it a cheese weapon.
Flying Guillotine - Bleed
Wrap Assassin - Bleed
Phlogistinator - A Self-kritzing Pyro coupled with an uber medic is a surefire way of pushing last, make your own dance floor
Tide Turner - Again, cheese weapon.
Brass Beast - Pushing last this could be used to deny a location
Gunslinger - Under no circumstances should an engineer be allowed to go on offense
Cleaner's Carbine - Again, cheese weapon.

I use the pistol a lot but I think it is uncommon that I wouldn't have been able to get the same kill with scatter, though it does happen (perhaps more often than I think). the pistol is more consistent but it is pretty easy to hit a random cleaver in a team fight and make that person useless, and the charge is pretty fast. and then there are times when I have been able to instantly kill a demo on mid by lobbing a cleaver at him as soon as I get there. you can occasionally do the same with pistol but at long range the pistol spread is pretty RNG too.

just the ability to easily hit someone exiting a choke for ~70dmg when they are too far for me to chase down, is the main reason I would run it. I will agree that whether it is op or not, it is not very fun to play again and probably should never be unbanned.

You have to be so low hp or jump so far for you to be able to load the shots required to frag a medic in time that the jumping at a medic and fragging him situation is pretty irrelevant imo

In most cases, I'd say that these unlocks are worse than the default loadouts. But, for when they aren't, it's just not fun to play against. The whole idea of "not fun to play against" is a legitimate way to consider balance. Even though it's subjective, it's pretty consistent. When the Sandman was created, everyone knew the weapon was stupid. Stuns in FPS games are not enjoyable in any sense, especially games with a lot of movement capabilities.

The direct hit is the same way. It's just worse than the regular rocket launcher, but it kills scouts in one hit. That's so stupid. In a competitive game, it's whatever. You die to a direct hit as a scout and your team rolls over the rest of the players because there's no consistent spam. But in pugs, it's just lame as fuck. And that's the direct hit. That weapon is bad and you wouldn't use it to win a game. But with the possible inclusion of different weapons that could be actual sidegrades, this problem becomes more and more apparent. There shouldn't be any projectile in this game that one-shots anything. But still we have a primary pipe launcher that nearly one-shots Medics, of all classes.

I could use the same example for the guillotine, if you think I'm biased. A medic escaping Badlands choke shouldn't be able to successfully dodge 3 pipes, 2 stickies, and a mess of rocket spam just to get clipped by this fucking invisible blade flying toward him for 70 damage.

I just tested the Flying Guillotine and it literally makes no sound when you throw it, the projectile while in the air also makes no noise. I noticed that the projectiles of the Sandman and the Wrap Assassin also make no noise while in the air, but both have decent sound effects when they are used.

I think it would be a nice start to add in-air sound effects to these items and possibly give the Flying Guillotine a sound effect when the item is initially thrown. The projectile itself might need a more apparent visual effect as well.

Don't stickies have a bit of a trail while they're in the air? adding something like that to these projectiles could make them more visible and thus a little fairer to play against since you'd give players the ability to see them coming and dodge them.

considering all the heavy does in 6v6 is stand on last brass beast would be pretty good

btw the real reason to use the carbine is to 1shot scouts with huntsman bodyshots and do 195 bushwhacka hits, it's pretty worthless with the stock rifle besides 2shotting scouts with noscopes

if you get a pick as sniper what you actually should be doing is getting off sniper, there is no real reason to use the carbine

Im going to request that you make a review video of this

well I dont want to play against any of these in pugs but ozfortress would probably never unban them anyway

Matchmaking is going to be hilarious to watch go down. Can't wait.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiYzXXjm8A8

if the LOOSE CANNON is allowed in 6s then why should all these weapons be banned the impact they have is very minimal and there is a trade off for most of the eg brass beast movement, guillotine lack of consistent damage.

to call the gunslinger minimal betrays a very shallow understanding of the flank and its impact on tf2

that's just the heavy and medic both not having eyeballs or ears

You're implying that anybody in the world be retarded enough to place a mini when it won't be full health by the time people get there.

http://i.imgur.com/67UicDM.jpg

I'm just afraid of minisentry spam on badlands mid on the windows. Very hard to shoot down and denies a lot of area from the scout.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoXodZtsjvM

I really don't want to have to play against this in 6v6, too.

It lets you come in at awkward angles that unless you're positioned to defend against are incredibly difficult to stop. And that's with a heavy, mini-sentry and a pyro present. Even if you immediately draw the aggression of both scouts, you're making room for the rest of your team to do something, but in a much safer fashion than a quick bomb that costs your life. It is not fun at all to try to play against.