Regarding the recent Saloon issues

#1

Geel9

marketplace.tf

0 Frags – +

Hey guys,

Figured I'd make this thread to clear up some recent issues regarding saloon.

Regarding the 20b vs froyo match:

This never should have been verified. I'm not sure who did verify it, but we're actively trying to find out. Regardless, many people unfairly lost (and won) their bets. We've taken steps to rectify this:

All items that were given to "winners" that were not withdrawn yet were given back to their betters. This represents about 50% of the items that were lost. The remainder are being paid out of our own pockets; all items that were lost are being exchanged with items of equivalent value. This process takes a little bit of time so please do be patient. In total, ~80 keys are yet to be paid back.

Regarding not winning items for bets you placed:

Essentially, what this boils down to is the fact that not enough items are being bet on matches to ensure fair distribution of items. Because some items are rather valuable, and most bets are not, what this means is that sometimes it's impossible to fairly pay out a bet. Usually this means you're underpaid, but it can also mean you're not paid at all or overpaid.

We have had a system in place since Saloon began to solve this wherein if we need to, we can exchange some of those higher-value items for some lower-value items that we own. The problem is, actually acquiring these low-value items to perform the automated exchanges is difficult. We're working on a system to automatically exchange low-value items from sweetstakes to saloon to remedy this.

That said, I understand the lack of communication regarding this issue has been disappointing and I don't blame you for being upset. Simply put, saloon has not been performing up to the par the TF2 community deserves and for that we apologize.

Hey guys,

Figured I'd make this thread to clear up some recent issues regarding saloon.

[b]Regarding the 20b vs froyo match:[/b]

This never should have been verified. I'm not sure who did verify it, but we're actively trying to find out. Regardless, many people unfairly lost (and won) their bets. We've taken steps to rectify this:

All items that were given to "winners" that were not withdrawn yet were given back to their betters. This represents about 50% of the items that were lost. The remainder are being paid out of our own pockets; all items that were lost are being exchanged with items of equivalent value. This process takes a little bit of time so please do be patient. In total, [b]~80 keys are yet to be paid back.[/b]

[b]Regarding not winning items for bets you placed:[/b]

Essentially, what this boils down to is the fact that not enough items are being bet on matches to ensure fair distribution of items. Because some items are rather valuable, and most bets are [b]not[/b], what this means is that sometimes it's impossible to fairly pay out a bet. Usually this means you're underpaid, but it can also mean you're not paid at all or overpaid.

We have had a system in place since Saloon began to solve this wherein if we need to, we can exchange some of those higher-value items for some lower-value items that we own. The problem is, actually [b]acquiring[/b] these low-value items to perform the automated exchanges is difficult. We're working on a system to automatically exchange low-value items from sweetstakes to saloon to remedy this.

That said, I understand the lack of communication regarding this issue has been disappointing and I don't blame you for being upset. Simply put, saloon has not been performing up to the par the TF2 community deserves and for that we apologize.

#2

3680962134679021

31 Frags – +

i want cherry back

#3

Sideshow

52 Frags – +

cherry's solution was to not allow high-value items to be bet, as he had no way of 'melting them down'. Are you planning to return to that option while you solve the issue?

#4

dishsoap

-5 Frags – +

i hate this loot withdraw and loot deposit system.

#5

Dylan

1 Frags – +

No worries Geel, just get some good admins that can work the site and bring it back <3

#6

crossfire

8 Frags – +

would allowing lower priced items to be bet on the site help fix this issue? (csgolounge lets you bet 3 cent items)

i'm sure saloon don't have enough resources to implement this currently, but is saloon looking to eventually do this?

would allowing lower priced items to be bet on the site help fix this issue? (csgolounge lets you bet 3 cent items)

i'm sure saloon don't have enough resources to implement this currently, but is saloon looking to eventually do this?

#7

dollarlayer

4 Frags – +

crossfirewould allowing lower priced items to be bet on the site help fix this issue? (csgolounge lets you bet 3 cent items)

i'm sure saloon don't have enough resources to implement this currently, but is saloon looking to eventually do this?

Or another idea would be any items that are not easy to liquidate (non keys, metal, craft hats, TOD tickets etc) are valued at 20-30% less than standard trading prices (like backpack.tf). Then trusted traders or sites like scrap.tf liquidate these items at a sale price in order to convert them into keys/metal which can more easily be dispersed to the winners.

[quote=crossfire]would allowing lower priced items to be bet on the site help fix this issue? (csgolounge lets you bet 3 cent items)

i'm sure saloon don't have enough resources to implement this currently, but is saloon looking to eventually do this?[/quote]

Or another idea would be any items that are not easy to liquidate (non keys, metal, craft hats, TOD tickets etc) are valued at 20-30% less than standard trading prices (like backpack.tf). Then trusted traders or sites like scrap.tf liquidate these items at a sale price in order to convert them into keys/metal which can more easily be dispersed to the winners.

#8

saf

4 Frags – +

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjQ2jGUNSck

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjQ2jGUNSck[/youtube]

#9

venger47

2 Frags – +

Thanks for doing this. But PLEASE be more careful in the future.

#10

brody

6 Frags – +

safrixhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjQ2jGUNSck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW8VmSfYLAU

[quote=safrix][youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjQ2jGUNSck[/youtube][/quote]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW8VmSfYLAU[/youtube]

#11

m

10 Frags – +

there should really be some type of 'processing' status that makes it very clear when you have a pending won bet that is just waiting to be filled rather than it saying 'you won 0 keys of items on ur 20 key bet'

or some kind of option to be underpaid with currently available items

it feels super deceiving to have the site show a notice that you have won a bet and then have nothing to show for it

there should really be some type of 'processing' status that makes it very clear when you have a pending won bet that is just waiting to be filled rather than it saying 'you won 0 keys of items on ur 20 key bet'

or some kind of option to be underpaid with currently available items

it feels super deceiving to have the site show a notice that you have won a bet and then have nothing to show for it

#12

Geel9

marketplace.tf

-10 Frags – +

mthere should really be some type of 'processing' status that makes it very clear when you have a pending won bet that is just waiting to be filled rather than it saying 'you won 0 keys of items on ur 20 key bet'

or some kind of option to be underpaid with currently available items

it feels super deceiving to have the site show a notice that you have won a bet and then have nothing to show for it

There shouldn't because this isn't what is actually happening.

[quote=m]there should really be some type of 'processing' status that makes it very clear when you have a pending won bet that is just waiting to be filled rather than it saying 'you won 0 keys of items on ur 20 key bet'

or some kind of option to be underpaid with currently available items

it feels super deceiving to have the site show a notice that you have won a bet and then have nothing to show for it[/quote]

There shouldn't because this isn't what is actually happening.

#13

GentlemanJon

14 Frags – +

Sideshowcherry's solution was to not allow high-value items to be bet, as he had no way of 'melting them down'. Are you planning to return to that option while you solve the issue?

He also used to keep a large reserve of small items to fill in where bets couldn't be covered by the items available. With scrap.tf resources available I imagine any betting disparity could be covered in this way.

[quote=Sideshow]cherry's solution was to not allow high-value items to be bet, as he had no way of 'melting them down'. Are you planning to return to that option while you solve the issue?[/quote]
He also used to keep a large reserve of small items to fill in where bets couldn't be covered by the items available. With scrap.tf resources available I imagine any betting disparity could be covered in this way.

#14

m

19 Frags – +

Geel9mthere should really be some type of 'processing' status that makes it very clear when you have a pending won bet that is just waiting to be filled rather than it saying 'you won 0 keys of items on ur 20 key bet'

or some kind of option to be underpaid with currently available items

it feels super deceiving to have the site show a notice that you have won a bet and then have nothing to show for it
There shouldn't because this isn't what is actually happening.

ok whats actually happening then

here is what i see from my end

i bet x amount of items

team i bet on wins

match gets verified

modal pops up saying "grats on winning .3x worth of what you bet, click here to go to loot"

go to loot and i just see what i bet + literally no other winnings

i hoped i was misreading your original post when you said

Geel9Usually this means you're underpaid, but it can also mean you're not paid at all

but now it just sounds like you have no plans to actually pay out at all

how do u even type that as the guy running a betting site

'oh man its just crazy sometimes we decide not to pay out guess that happens lol'

i mean i understand what ur saying is a real problem but what kind of arbitrary bullshit is it that u just DONT pay out on harder/higher bets when they should probably be prioritized

im sure theres some kind of credit you could run for future bets or something but geez

[quote=Geel9][quote=m]there should really be some type of 'processing' status that makes it very clear when you have a pending won bet that is just waiting to be filled rather than it saying 'you won 0 keys of items on ur 20 key bet'

or some kind of option to be underpaid with currently available items

it feels super deceiving to have the site show a notice that you have won a bet and then have nothing to show for it[/quote]

There shouldn't because this isn't what is actually happening.[/quote]

ok whats actually happening then

here is what i see from my end

i bet x amount of items

team i bet on wins

match gets verified

modal pops up saying "grats on winning .3x worth of what you bet, click here to go to loot"

go to loot and i just see what i bet + literally no other winnings

i hoped i was misreading your original post when you said

[quote=Geel9]Usually this means you're underpaid, but it can also mean you're not paid at all[/quote]

but now it just sounds like you have no plans to actually pay out at all

how do u even type that as the guy running a betting site

'oh man its just crazy sometimes we decide not to pay out guess that happens lol'

i mean i understand what ur saying is a real problem but what kind of arbitrary bullshit is it that u just DONT pay out on harder/higher bets when they should probably be prioritized

im sure theres some kind of credit you could run for future bets or something but geez

#15

swagmachine

3 Frags – +

why even bet items, im not big into trading but wouldnt keys/metal/earbuds(?) be much better? i know it takes some of the fun away in just throwing shit out there but it would make things a lot easier when it comes to payout

#16

the301stspartan

21 Frags – +

I don't understand... you own scrap.tf?? How can there be any problems converting high-value items into low-value items or keys?

#17

Geel9

marketplace.tf

3 Frags – +

mGeel9mthere should really be some type of 'processing' status that makes it very clear when you have a pending won bet that is just waiting to be filled rather than it saying 'you won 0 keys of items on ur 20 key bet'

or some kind of option to be underpaid with currently available items

it feels super deceiving to have the site show a notice that you have won a bet and then have nothing to show for it
There shouldn't because this isn't what is actually happening.
ok whats actually happening then

here is what i see from my end

i bet x amount of items

team i bet on wins

match gets verified

modal pops up saying "grats on winning .3x worth of what you bet, click here to go to loot"

go to loot and i just see what i bet + literally no other winnings

i hoped i was misreading your original post when you said
Geel9Usually this means you're underpaid, but it can also mean you're not paid at all
but now it just sounds like you have no plans to actually pay out at all

how do u even type that as the guy running a betting site

'oh man its just crazy sometimes we decide not to pay out guess that happens lol'

i mean i understand what ur saying is a real problem but what kind of arbitrary bullshit is it that u just DONT pay out on harder/higher bets when they should probably be prioritized

im sure theres some kind of credit you could run for future bets or something but geez

It's not about deciding not to pay out, it's about the fact that sometimes from the available pool of items, it's logistically impossible to pay certain users out. Given that saloon doesn't actually make any money at all, it's unfeasible for it to just give users credit for items outside this pool. As I said earlier, we're working on a system to ensure we have a steady stock of low-value items to exchange for certain high-value items when the need arises. I don't really know what you expect us to do beyond what we already said we will do.

the301stspartanI don't understand... you own scrap.tf?? How can there be any problems converting high-value items into low-value items or keys?

I own 50% of scrap.tf. The other 50% of scrap.tf (Jessecar) is both not related to saloon in any way and has stated his desire to remain completely separated from it. The issue is a bit more complex than you might imagine.

GentlemanJonSideshowcherry's solution was to not allow high-value items to be bet, as he had no way of 'melting them down'. Are you planning to return to that option while you solve the issue?He also used to keep a large reserve of small items to fill in where bets couldn't be covered by the items available. With scrap.tf resources available I imagine any betting disparity could be covered in this way.

This is the plan, yes, but scrap.tf cannot be used for this for reasons stated above.

[quote=m][quote=Geel9][quote=m]there should really be some type of 'processing' status that makes it very clear when you have a pending won bet that is just waiting to be filled rather than it saying 'you won 0 keys of items on ur 20 key bet'

or some kind of option to be underpaid with currently available items

it feels super deceiving to have the site show a notice that you have won a bet and then have nothing to show for it[/quote]

There shouldn't because this isn't what is actually happening.[/quote]

ok whats actually happening then

here is what i see from my end

i bet x amount of items

team i bet on wins

match gets verified

modal pops up saying "grats on winning .3x worth of what you bet, click here to go to loot"

go to loot and i just see what i bet + literally no other winnings

i hoped i was misreading your original post when you said

[quote=Geel9]Usually this means you're underpaid, but it can also mean you're not paid at all[/quote]

but now it just sounds like you have no plans to actually pay out at all

how do u even type that as the guy running a betting site

'oh man its just crazy sometimes we decide not to pay out guess that happens lol'

i mean i understand what ur saying is a real problem but what kind of arbitrary bullshit is it that u just DONT pay out on harder/higher bets when they should probably be prioritized

im sure theres some kind of credit you could run for future bets or something but geez[/quote]

It's not about deciding not to pay out, it's about the fact that sometimes from the available pool of items, it's logistically impossible to pay certain users out. Given that [b]saloon doesn't actually make any money at all[/b], it's unfeasible for it to just give users credit for items outside this pool. As I said earlier, we're working on a system to ensure we have a steady stock of low-value items to exchange for certain high-value items when the need arises. I don't really know what you expect us to do beyond what we already said we will do.

[quote=the301stspartan]I don't understand... you own scrap.tf?? How can there be any problems converting high-value items into low-value items or keys?[/quote]

I own 50% of scrap.tf. The other 50% of scrap.tf (Jessecar) is both not related to saloon in any way and has stated his desire to remain completely separated from it. The issue is a bit more complex than you might imagine.

[quote=GentlemanJon][quote=Sideshow]cherry's solution was to not allow high-value items to be bet, as he had no way of 'melting them down'. Are you planning to return to that option while you solve the issue?[/quote]
He also used to keep a large reserve of small items to fill in where bets couldn't be covered by the items available. With scrap.tf resources available I imagine any betting disparity could be covered in this way.[/quote]

This is the plan, yes, but scrap.tf cannot be used for this for reasons stated above.

#18

m

-4 Frags – +

Geel9Given that saloon doesn't actually make any money at all

then shut it down

it makes no money

it doesnt work

i see pages of people spamming the steamgroup about unanswered support tickets and admins being generally unreachable

people are unhappy with it because surprise winning RANDOMLY doesnt even result in u gaining anything

[quote=Geel9]Given that [b]saloon doesn't actually make any money at all[/b][/quote]

then shut it down

it makes no money

it doesnt work

i see pages of people spamming the steamgroup about unanswered support tickets and admins being generally unreachable

people are unhappy with it because surprise winning RANDOMLY doesnt even result in u gaining anything

#19

Geel9

marketplace.tf

7 Frags – +

mGeel9Given that saloon doesn't actually make any money at all
then shut it down

it makes no money

it doesnt work

i see pages of people spamming the steamgroup about unanswered support tickets and admins being generally unreachable

people are generally unhappy with it because surprise winning RANDOMLY doesnt even result in u gaining anything

It makes no money by choice, not because it doesn't work.

[quote=m][quote=Geel9]Given that [b]saloon doesn't actually make any money at all[/b][/quote]

then shut it down

it makes no money

it doesnt work

i see pages of people spamming the steamgroup about unanswered support tickets and admins being generally unreachable

people are generally unhappy with it because surprise winning RANDOMLY doesnt even result in u gaining anything[/quote]

It makes no money by choice, not because it doesn't work.

#20

kKaltUu

2 Frags – +

mGeel9Given that saloon doesn't actually make any money at all
then shut it down

it makes no money

it doesnt work

i see pages of people spamming the steamgroup about unanswered support tickets and admins being generally unreachable

people are unhappy with it because surprise winning RANDOMLY doesnt even result in u gaining anything

It means that the site is non-profit. If those sites should close say good bye to TFTV, ETF2L, Essentials etc...
The point is that you always get your items back, but earnings have to be looked at.

The proposed solution for that is the system that Geel talks about in the opening post.

[quote=m][quote=Geel9]Given that [b]saloon doesn't actually make any money at all[/b][/quote]

then shut it down

it makes no money

it doesnt work

i see pages of people spamming the steamgroup about unanswered support tickets and admins being generally unreachable

people are unhappy with it because surprise winning RANDOMLY doesnt even result in u gaining anything[/quote]

It means that the site is non-profit. If those sites should close say good bye to TFTV, ETF2L, Essentials etc...
The point is that you always get your items back, but earnings have to be looked at.

The proposed solution for that is the system that Geel talks about in the opening post.

#21

Dagger

cp_granary_pro

2 Frags – +

thanks for getting most of my items back. Please find out who the admin was that verified and fire his ass.

#22

CHERRY

10 Frags – +

Daggerthanks for getting most of my items back. Please find out who the admin was that verified and fire his ass.

"Fire"

fatswimdudesafrixhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjQ2jGUNSckhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW8VmSfYLAU

Here's a classic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNvUS-6PTbs

[quote=Dagger]thanks for getting most of my items back. Please find out who the admin was that verified and fire his ass.[/quote]
"Fire"

[quote=fatswimdude][quote=safrix][youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjQ2jGUNSck[/youtube][/quote]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW8VmSfYLAU[/youtube][/quote]
Here's a classic:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNvUS-6PTbs[/youtube]

#23

the301stspartan

1 Frags – +

So then if there's no way to automatically melt items, maybe just add some rule that forces people to bet more small items? Like x% of your total bet value has to be keys/items below worth x. With the available data, it should be straightforward to find an algorithm that calculates what the ratio needs to be at any point based on ongoing game stakes and low-value items currently "in stock".

#24

Geel9

marketplace.tf

1 Frags – +

the301stspartanSo then if there's no way to automatically melt items, maybe just add some rule that forces people to bet more small items? Like x% of your total bet value has to be keys/items below worth x. With the available data, it should be straightforward to find an algorithm that calculates what the ratio needs to be at any point based on ongoing game stakes and low-value items currently "in stock".

As stated in the original post, we're working on a system to automatically exchange larger items for smaller items of equal value.

[quote=the301stspartan]So then if there's no way to automatically melt items, maybe just add some rule that forces people to bet more small items? Like x% of your total bet value has to be keys/items below worth x. With the available data, it should be straightforward to find an algorithm that calculates what the ratio needs to be at any point based on ongoing game stakes and low-value items currently "in stock".[/quote]

As stated in the original post, we're working on a system to automatically exchange larger items for smaller items of equal value.

#25

speedy

1 Frags – +

Still did not get my winnings from the froyo v ronin game a while back, do not know what is up with that.

#26

-fish-

-2 Frags – +

.

#27

Zetsu

2 Frags – +

i love memes http://imgur.com/Uk614mB 3 months doe..

#28

venger47

1 Frags – +

still waiting to get half my items back (atleast paid in other items)

#29

Manky

1 Frags – +

hi can we get our items back thank you

#30

Zetsu

2 Frags – +

i know its only 1ish key and im probably bitching too much but http://imgur.com/Uk614mB hi