I work with a ton of newbies, almost certainly more than anyone else who has posted in this thread. I talk to ~75-100 newbies per week in newbie mixes and have a lot of outreach in the form of mentee/demo review teams that range from low/mid open all the way to a steel team. I can honestly say that it is not more common for the new players to tell me they started with HL, and many of them ask for advice on which gamemode to choose and whether they should start in UGC. That isn't to say that none of them tried HL first or spent some time there before moving over to 6s, but to call that a large feeder into the 6s scene is at least disingenuous and at worst intentionally misleading. In fact, many of the people I talk to who did move on from HL say they wish they had switched to 6s faster.

My sample group is skewed towards people who aim to improve and play better (which is why they show up to Newbie Mixes every week), but I think it is at least semi-representative of the actual situation.

But the reason I think HL has been most detrimental to TF2, especially in North America, is that its acceptance as a format really solidified and legitimized UGC as a free league for TF2, as THE league to start out in if you were new to TF2. I don't want to get into whether or not it is better for a new team to play UGC for a while vs starting in ESEA, it is not relevant to my point. Instead, by driving teams to start and stay in UGC, it has deprived ESEA from newer talent/teams and the potentially huge amount of revenue that could bring into the game.

There are what, 80 teams total this season in ESEA? Not awful numbers but we've done better. I just looked around at UGC and there are at least 500 rosters, a really huge chunk of those either ready to go or close to it in terms of having the proper amount of players ready. That extra order of magnitude must contain at least a sizeable chunk of teams that could be playing in ESEA if only they knew that opportunity was out there and didn't become sucked into the implicit idea that teams should play in UGC at first. Many people develop a certain amount of inertia there, staying where they are because they view not getting to the top of gold as not being sufficiently skilled to take on a season of Open.

I am not naive enough to think that every one of those 500 teams would be playing in ESEA if UGC weren't there, but perhaps enough of them that we could have Main back, perhaps enough that we wouldn't have lost LAN support, certainly enough to make there be some more money for Invite to produce, entice and retain good talent.

Argue about hl all you want, but this is seriously not the thread to do it. These people worked very hard to run and promote this tournament, and whether or not you agree or like hl, i personally believe one more player that has experienced some form of competitive tf2 is a good thing.

To be fair UGC has been "solidified and legitimized as a free league for TF2" because it is free. While the ESEA paywall isn't that high, it still is there and makes a difference to new players thinking about starting up in comp. People are unlikely to put money on something they're hesitant to commit to, even if it's not a lot of money.

I think highlander has very little to do with this point, although it is a good one.

I'm confused by the idea of starting an HL introductory tournament when 6v6 is literally going to be in the game client at the next major update. People know about 6v6, Valve are putting it in the game and calling it competitive, /r/tf2 is being covered in 6v6 twitch clips and a league wants to introduce people to structured competitive play in HL.

I just don't follow the logic.

Mainly because we wanted to do something for HL over the summer. Otherwise you wouldn't have any HL related event until next Autumn. The reason why it is a introductory tournament is because when we were discussing ideas this is the one most of the admins were interested in hosting.

If there is demand and we have admins who are available we can always also look into a hosting a 6s event to run over the same/similar period as the 6s Nations cup. This shouldn't really be an issue due to the nations cup only catering to a small part of the people. We would most likely not dub this as a introductory tournament but rather one for people from all kinds of experience. But this could be a short cup for people who would potentially be interested in Season 25. And for new players who are uncertain without having them committing to a full out 7 week season this would be a great opportunity.

I won't make any promises though seeing that I'll probably be busy with the HLO #2 myself and I doubt overseeing 2 cups at the same would run smoothly.

The argument that HL is a stepping stone to 6s is ludicrous.

The amount of prerequisite knowledge of how to play a map that's required to compete in HL in comparison to 6s makes it much harder for new players.

The way that each class has a different value in highlander makes it much harder for newer players to understand whether they have an advantage in a fight or not.

I agree with enigma's point, because I feel that there will be people who tried to get into "competitive" by playing highlander and will have lost and not understood why, which can be frustrating. I have first hand experience of this with one of the first teams I joined doing a lobby stack and getting destroyed by Tseini, the team disbanded after.

In 6v6 new players will get killed purely from being alone or losing fights. It's very easy for new players to understand that they had to take a 1v3 or that they lost a 1v1. It's not very easy for a new player to understand why the enemy sniper is able to get into positions to peak your medic, or why you should push from certain places depending on what picks you have.

That being said I prefer highlander for the strategy and teamplay, and if you want a properly accessible gamemode for new players you should probably do ultiduo tournaments.

Didn't the fact that 6v6 matchmaking is going to be released soon enter into the discussion? Wasn't anybody concerned with exploiting the biggest opportunity for competitive growth in TF2 history?

How will you asses this demand? The competitive steam group has 180,000 members, isn't that enough of an indication of interest? Obviously it's not format specific but they've only been playing 6v6 so far.

The admins were discussing amongst themselves if they could host a summer event for 9v9, as the last event was Season 10 that ended a while back. Last year we had a 9v9 nations cup, which is being alternated with 6v6 each year. (hence hosting a 6v6 cup back then).

There was/is little indication that matchmaking is going to be released soon (before the end of the year at least), and if it is, it will probably include 9v9 as the dropdown shows. Plenty of reason to push the either gamemode (we give both the same amount of attention). As for the numbers, the carrot is the word competitive, it's not like the group would be empty if it was any format apart or instead of 6v6.

Admins are players within the community, talk to other players and read forums. It's not hard to get noticed if you have a good idea for an ETF2L event.

I'm happy the HLO gets this much attention from tftv but sad to see so much hostility from a format that's established over the years. Hopefully new players won't be discouraged from trying competitive (in either format) after reading comments on an echo chamber like this.

Spectacular optimism. 9v9 will be held back for player numbers that could support such a queue hostile format, and they would have to be very high.

where are you getting this information from? we have good reason to believe the update is extremely soon if not this week. (most likely, unless something goes wrong internally)

completely setting aside the fact that valve has said to enigma and others directly that highlander is not their vision of the game and that they disagree with the "all classes are equal, class limit 1" reasoning that highlander gives, how do you honestly expect a 9v9 queue to go? having to find two of each class, at a somewhat similar skill level, in the same region? the queue time would be ridiculous at non-peak hours for the playerbase tf2 has, and good luck getting all those players to stay throughout the whole match. valve could remove all the class limits from a 9v9 queue but what's the point in playing it over 6v6 at that point? this is completely ignoring the fact that highlander is an undesirable format for spectators and is impossible to properly spectate. (from personal experience)

i appreciate that you're passionate about highlander and i can definitely appreciate people who want to play their favorite classes in a way that they are competitively viable, but pushing this format over a better one like 6v6 that's being actively promoted and supported by the developer is an absolute waste of time and will divide the community even further. this is not me being "elitist" about any format; i'm just trying to support what's best for the side of the game that we all enjoy playing.

sorry for this long post but i wanted to get some of these thoughts out here.

Should probably point out that with matchmaking being released shortly new players will find 6v6 very accessible, so I don't see how an initiative to allow players to try highlander at the same time can be seen as splitting the community, I see it as broadening the horizons.

Also all these dev intentions arguments are bullshit. There is a format with a meta around it, it works, deal with it.

Highlander has around the same number of players as 6s, there is an existing community who obviously like playing highlander and want it to grow (even if you do not). They have every right to host and promote events for HL.

If you guys want a 6s tournament, literally nobody is stopping you from stepping up and hosting one yourself.

I think you're missing the point of these posts. Since this is one of the most critical times to support tf2's growth, putting resources towards the competitive scene that valve supports is significantly more beneficial than using those resources for a game mode that valve has stated they don't particularly like. Nevertheless, if there were already a bunch of 6s tournaments, this would be a different discussion.

HL admins and players don't owe 6s players new tournaments. If somebody thinks it would be useful for 6s to have a newbie cup this summer, then host one rather than telling people who are volunteering their own time that they should cater to your interests and not their own.

Is it really that hard to believe? I can name tons of well-known players who started out or played in UGC Highlander or 6v6 before making ESEA IM/Invite.

Paragon
Deadbolt
Ash
Corsa
Muma
Blues
highfive
train
Scizor
Jarrett
Slemnish
Nursey
Connor
fuzion
Linkuser
Spamfest
phorofor
duwatna
xalox
to name some at the top of my head

I don't agree with enigma or clockwork. People are severely underestimating the impact UGC or Highlander has had in bringing new talent to the scene. If it weren't for a Highlander cast I personally wouldn't have been introduced to this scene. Is it true that only 1 format would've been healthier for the competitive scene? Absolutely. However having 6's as the only competitive format wouldn't have accounted for having zero development support from Valve or being completely unappealing to most of the pub audience for their own uneducated reasons.

If the players pioneering 6v6 removed class limits and were more lenient on weapon bans from the beginning it would've thrived a lot more with the rest of the 'casual' player base. Highlander is the symptom of the 6's community being too narrow-minded, not the cause of 6's having a relatively smaller scene. If you want more people to play your game and watch your competitive format you have to appeal to casual players to some degree.

The same issue is happening right now with the Overwatch competitive scene. Is one hero limit a more competitive and enjoyable format to play for most pros? Sure. But if you want the hundreds of thousands of pubbers to continue playing the game and watch your pro casts which incentivizes Blizzard and other sponsors to keep giving you money, then no hero limit will have to do like the new 100k ESL tournament.

TL;DR you have to compromise between competitive and casual appeal if you want your game to grow. 6v6 didn't and Highlander did it badly. Overwatch is a step up from TF2 in this regard but it's also facing the same issue in the form of hero limits.

I assume that you never played with double nat heavy on yukon last or double gunslinger engy on gpit or grans but fuuuuck that noise. Try and play that shit then we can talk about not needing class limits or weapon bans.

You're probably right in saying that hl/ugc helped tf2, but that is only because valve didn't support competitive. At this point in time--with valve's support--it's in the best interest to aid what valve is focusing on.

Yeah I agree 100%. It's worth mentioning that Valve is likely going to be supporting 6v6 with no class limits or weapon bans. I'm not asking people to keep supporting Highlander in spite of Valve; I just think it's stupid to blame 6's shortcomings on Highlander.

The problem with saying "im playing because of hl" is you're using the real world 6s community in your hypothetical argument. To consider the growrh we lost or gained because of UGC, we need to consider if having only had ESEA wouldve made tf2 a more popular and reputable esport. If tf2 didnt take off because a ton of ppl werent playing 6s and sponsors didnt like the split scene, you cant say that HL was a net positive since the end result is tf2 being a smaller game and therefore not attracting as many players. Theres also the question of how many ppl wouldve just gone into 6s if hl wasnt around.

Too many variables and too complex a question imo. Youre discussing the fallout of a decision thats shaped the entire history of tf2, itd be difficult to say what wouldve happened in another reality

x

As a more abstract way of putting what im saying: if we started back in 2009 with 1000 players, and every year half of all players managed to convince someone new to join, we'd have ~25000 players. If ugc had never existed and the 500 or so people who had never played esea because of ugc joined the community here instead, we'd have 40000 players.

The problem with supporting ugc AND esea is that we limit the growth of either, because populations like these tend to grow exppnentially. This means the longer we support both gamemodes, the weaker we are in the long run.

There isn't supposed to be a difference in ETF2L any more is there? Not appearing to act in the best interests of the league is the surprising thing, I don't really care about game modes except that Valve is probably not going to be putting one of them into MM for a while. Presenting players with a different mode is another barrier.

You are right, we used to have different functions but they have been consolidated to league admin. This means the admins work on 6v6 and 9v9.

British scientist have found that players froms 6s have cancer in balls and a gay gen, Thats why players like enigma and b4nny are making each other a blowjob after a good game in 6s. The only way that can cure there disease would be good hl therapy.

With such a huge update coming out for matchmaking focusing on 6s ETF2L should be acting around that, not making a highlander cup so that "highlander players aren't left out". The next few months are the most crucial in ETF2L's history and there isn't room to accomodate a small highlander player base to sacrifice a HUGE opportunity.

Run a small highlander cup in the summer if you really want to but there's no doubt this cup aimed at new players should be 6v6. Potentially one of the problems of having the majority of your staff as highlander players.

Should probably point out that this is an argument over a hypothetical concept with very little proof.

What's stopping ETF2L from doing a 6s Open in a few weeks and announcing it after matchmaking is released to draw in in players?

Nothing besides splitting resources between both.
If ETF2L had more admins then the HL focused ones wouldnt be forced to help with 6s and you'd probably have a 6s cup as well.

It's a fair point to say the timing for a Highlander event is awkward when you want to be ready to play into the 6v6 matchmaking official release. I can definitely see the reason in that, and I would say it's an entirely legitimate criticism.

That said, I don't see the reason in people saying that Highlander players in general should stop playing and/or supporting highlander and play 6v6 instead, for the good of TF2 as a whole. Quite possibly it would increase TF2's popularity or 'power' as a whole. But it would also involve players who prefer Highlander to stop playing that, and to instead play something they don't enjoy or enjoy less. Even if you could manage to get people to artificially boost the interest in 6v6 that way, it would be founded on people who don't, truly, enjoy the gamemode that much. People will support the gamemode they like, and if X amount of people prefer Highlander over 6v6, then that's what they should be supporting.
The comparison has been made before, but the same argument could be made for TF2 players to stop playing TF2 and instead support CSGO with all their hearts, so that FPS games can finally get the same amount of publicity as MOBA's. Or everyone should go support MOBA's in order to further solidify e-sports in the entertainment industry. At all levels it would be possible to say 'if group xyz were to join the largest and most influential group, then this would benefit the scene as a whole'. It's entirely possible you're right that that unity would lend the scene more power, but that isn't going to change the players' preferences. I don't think people should support something they don't like, simply for the sake of artificially boosting numbers that ultimately only benefit the thing they support, and not the thing they like themselves.

tl;dr: Bad timing when 6v6 is about to get a lot of promotion from the release of matchmaking, fair point. Guilt tripping highlander players into completely dropping a gamemode they truly enjoy, and instead artificially supporting something they don't genuinely enjoy, not a fair point at all.

I knew posting a highlander event on a 6s forum wouldnt go down well but I didnt expect this much hate. Play video games have fun, the point of these cups is to introduce people to the fun that can be had with comp tf2. if people check this thread and see a bunch of salty arguments i dont think they will feel inspired to sign up to any form of tf2. Let alone which kind you think is "better". This event is happening, 6s events will happen in the future, please dont try destroy one gamemode because you support the other.

So what it boils down to is 6s players are expecting highlander players to put in the effort that they themselves aren't putting in?