how the fuck is opening a case or crate not fucking gambling? I understand being against gambling websites that rig odds but how the fuck u gonna tell them not to allow gambling if all you ever do is let people gamble.

Opening a crate is not gambling. You pay for a key so you are essentially paying for merchandise. I see a clear difference.

couldn't a website like lounge just cut out the skin betting and keep their site up for trading?

I think it's interesting to note that Fanobet, a skins-betting website similar to CSGOLounge, was not listed on there. I've heard that theory that Valve is basically only shutting down US based/focused sites due to their lawsuit, and Fanobet requires ID for registration and doesn't allow any Americans to register.

people spend loads trying to unbox a knife. vids on youtube of knife unboxings are pretty much the same as le epic jackpot win!!! vids.

someone on reddit said that they're only sending these notices to companies that affect the US, which is where their current lawsuit is based, so it seems like they're only doing this for lawsuit purposes and that their hand was forced.

edit: smh ninja'd

yeah, seems like the grounds they're shutting them down with is the usage of steam accounts for commercial uses. the trading thing doesn't use that but won't rake in nearly as much cash

I think you answered your own question. If someone is spending money to buy something, then it is not gambling.
Buying keys means you are purchasing whatever items you unbox. That is a clear difference than gambling your items for money or other items.

will be interesting to see viewership after csgl is shutdown, won't be getting the same figures as before

so you'd be OK with spending steam money on a raffle ticket that has a chance to pay out with a big return?

sounds like most of the gambling sites to me..

Stop with the Valve fanboyism please. The crate opening system, especially in CSGO is as much gambling as using tokens in casino is gambling. Just because you are not directly using money and instead using an intermediary system (skins/casino tokens) does not change that crate opening is by definition gambling.

Using keys, which have monetary value, to open crates, whose content also has monetary value, with a small chance of turning the initial investment to profit, is per definition, gambling. The crates work pretty much exactly as slot machines do, and this way of gambling poses the same threath to children's mental health as conventional gambling does.

I'm not even saying that gambling is inherently bad or anything, in fact gambling is fun to do and should be allowed for adults, but Valve is definitely promoting gambling to their audience with their crate opening system, and this audience has a lot of kids in it. It's pretty much a legal loophole which allows kids to gamble because Valve claims that skins do not have an inherent value, even though this statement is blatantly wrong.

opening a pack of pokemon cards is not gambling.
opening a case is not gambling.

It's not. Buying and opening a packet of football stickers or ccg cards or a kinder egg (all of which have after markets of varying degrees) all contain a random element and are all clearly not considered gambling in any legal sense. Buying a crate is much more like this. It takes more than a random element to amount to gambling.

Betting on sporting outcomes or in casino games is clearly gambling. To extend your own comparison, buying a random number of casino chips (or an in-game item of random value, or a football sticker, kinder toy or ccg card) is not gambling. Using your chips in games of chance is gambling.

You may not like the distinction and find it hypocritical but it exists in law. Nothing about this will change.

gam·ble
ˈɡambəl/
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling
1.
play games of chance for money; bet.
"she was fond of gambling on cards and horses"
synonyms: bet, place/lay a bet on something, stake money on something, back the horses, game; informalplay the ponies
"he started to gamble more often"
2.
take risky action in the hope of a desired result.
"the British could only gamble that something would turn up"
synonyms: take a chance, take a risk; informalstick one's neck out, go out on a limb
"investors are gambling that the British pound will fall"

Youre buying keys, so youre spending money, playing a game of chance to win more money then you spent, and yes, opening a pack of pokemon cards is gambling if youre assuming youre going to make your money back off the booster. Its a mindset thing.

This has everything to do with the letter of the law and nothing to do with mindset

No, playing a raffle is obviously gambling. You pay money and gamble your chances to win. I am just pointing out the difference in buying a key to open a crate/box and how that is not always gambling in my opinion.

For example, I personally buy keys to open crates for the items. I have no intention of selling or gambling those items so I am buying keys to purchanse merchandise.

Yeah but surely it's different because at a base level a skin is a skin, as a card is a card, nothing more. The trading community set the prices. It has nothing to do with valve. You buy a key to get a random skin. If you couldn't trade them, therefore not make money, does it suddenly become not gambling?

I'm not arguing the legal definition of gambling, because crate opening is not a form of gambling that has been regulated, which is why Valve lets kids gamble. I'm using this definition of gambling:

Which in my opinion crate opening clearly is. If you cut out the intermediary, you are basically paying a few dollars for a game of chance were you can turn your inital investment into profit. In a conventional casino it is regulated so you need to be an adult to gamble. In CSGO, you pay $2.50 for a key, which you can use to open one crate, and the output is an item, which has a monetary value that can be above or under the value of your initial investment. This is their intermediary system to get around the regulation.

Obviously not all forms of crate opening is gambling, because people don't necessarily open crates to make a profit, they may as well just enjoy getting the items and using them in-game. But there are people who buys a ton of keys and use them to try to get a knife so they can sell it for a profit. Some of these people are unfortunately kids and the addiction potential with kids is much higher than it is in adults. A gambling addiction is not a fun thing to deal with, which is why Valve has a responsibility of not letting kids gamble.

I think the bigger difference between gambling and crate opening is you ALWAYS get something back from crates, even if its of lesser value, where as you dont always get something back when you gamble.

Betting skins on games is either a win/loss, you dont always get something back, its all or nothing, therefore gambling.

If you believe this to be true then stop fucking labeling all forms of crate opening as gambling. You just said it yourself that not all crate/box opening is gambling. This is exactly what I do with my crate opening so I don't gamble.

Gambling is taking the items you get from opening a box/crate and using the "items" to make profit.

The point is that you don't get to choose your definition. The whole issue is clearly legally motivated so the only definition that matters for any practical purpose is the legal one.

Valve weren't the first and won't be the last to use random rewards to lure in kids. Panini have been flogging sticker albums + packs for decades, to say it isn't new is putting it mildly.

It doesn't matter whether crate opening is legally defined as gambling or not. It encompasses the same social and mental health problems as conventional gambling does. The only difference is that Valve's business strategy around crates is unresponsible, unethical and shady, just not illegal. You might only be interested in the legal standpoint and that's fine, but you can't ignore that there are other aspects of this problem present in the debate.

So then we are in agreement. There just isn't a good term for crate opening with the intention of making a profit.

But that debate is even wider, there are all kinds of manipulations used to sell children products they don't need which are equally pernicious and to which they are particularly susceptible. How far do you want to take it?

feel like sites such a csgolounge shouldnt have been targeted when shady retards operating lottery/roulette type websites were the culprits

luckily we still have the best one

https://youtu.be/zxg7OP7ZH4A

is buying a kinder surprise egg gambling

There are nuances to what can be allowed and what shouldn't be allowed depending on the social consequences of the mechanism they are using to advertise to children. For example, card collections marketed towards kids are less likely to cause social and mental problems than crate openings. The reason why crate openings are especially sinister is because they work on the same principle as slot machines. They are specifically designed to provide instant strong postive stimuli whenever the player wins, which reinforces the behaviour of spending more money to keep winning and getting the positive stimuli, regardless of the long term results. This is especially problematic when it's kids that are playing because they are generally more receptive to stimuli, they are less likely to understand the long term consequences of gambling (losing money, addiction etc.), they are less likely to understand the mechanisms of gambling (odds, investment and return, etc.), and consequently they are less likely to be responsible gamblers. Valve definitely crossed the line of what's accetable, even if other companies are resposible for questionable advertising as well. Gambling addiction is not a fun problem to deal with.

f2p mmos have had gacha systems for years before valve decided 2 put it in their games

don't think it's going anywhere because it isn't legally gambling and you do get something out of it

really interesting stuff but I definitely think as time passes, the law will catch up with this shit because it's been going on forever. companies have been exploiting this shit and it just encourages bad game design in a lot of cases

Sounds like a problem the parents of these kids need to address and watch out for.

Saying crate opening is gambling is like saying these are gambling.

Thank god I cashed out the majority of my stuff before this all happened. The trading scene has really turned into a shit show.

The reason why crates are legal is because you're guaranteed to win/get something. Same reason carnival games are legal, just because you don't "win" you do always get a small/crap prize if you want it.