While we're discussing weapon balancing, I had a though earlier about the DDS, since the big problem with it is resisting a headshot/ fully charged bodyshot why not change it so instead of increased bullet resistance and decreased explosive resistance, it has increased explosive resistance and decreased bullet resistance? Basically, opposite stats.

Here is the infamous match that got the battalions backup banned from ESEA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-fpRC7RrpQ

Wasn't that also the game that got Sydney Sleeper banned?
If I recall, it was the x6 team that got both of them banned.

http://whitelist.tf/6129

Thoughts?
(Buff running buff banner is essentially the same thing as jarate-ing the whole enemy team, mini crits without falloff seems a bit much)

atomizer my man?

buff banners not even remotely comparable to jarate lol. Its much less consistent, you lose gunboats, and you spend five seconds announcing it to the other team whenever you plan to use it.

I wouldnt even call it poorly designed unlike pretty much every other source of minicrits. If it was stronger/built faster then it could be a viable choice for breaking stalemates which is something tf2 could probably use more of if the whitelist were to get looser.

With banners it's like a cop-out when you can't push a last or other hold. Just build that shit up and you're ready to go. The argument that it takes a secondary slot is dumb considering the main use is just building in a stalemate, a place where you dont need your secondary or even your primary most of the time.

Watching lunacide build that shit up before a gully last push was the most gimmicky and boring shit I've ever witnessed. I do think it'd result in more stalemates to be broken, but when you gotta wait for uber to build, sack, then build a banner it can get pretty cheesy and boring. Not surprised the main proponent of the unlock is a russki.

There's the possibility of it being counterable only to itself. IE if you see the roamer sack he might go a banner then, assuming you countersacked, you should also be building a banner of your own to be ready for the push. I personally think it'd degrade the game, but then again I'm definitely one of those people that thinks almost every new weapon that can be utilized will degrade 6s.

Honestly I feel the conch is the only non disruptive banner, it just heals, while having the backup can nullify a kritzkreig/sniper.
All the conch really does is heal, I don't see it being that disruptive. I can see it be annoying if the soldier runs the Conch'Box, builds it, and walks into the opposing team, to take a lof of damage and hit some nice directs that give him all the health back he could need.

True there, as a soldier main I know the pain of scouts just surfing rockets, hitting jump once and having you low, no need to give them the extra jump for even deadlier force.

I still don't understand why we don't just use the etf2l whitelist. It allows everything that isn't completely broken/retarded except possibly the Batallions Backup.

Perhaps, but if that much time passes without anyone getting any other sort of advantage to capitalize on then the match is probably incredibly boring already.

I mean sure its kinda gay in how its built by spam, but its not like its on par with an uber/pick advantage and side from the conch they take a while to build.

Why ban something that we haven't seen enough of in 6s to really know whether or not it's OP?

Unban:

Battalions Backup: You need ~600 damage to charge it. Even good pockets aren't really doing more than 300 DPM consistently on viaduct so you're looking at something that takes about 1.5 ubers to charge for a relatively meh ability. Its not terrible but honestly the 330 HP soldier is more annoying than team kritz immunity, especially now that kritz is less common than it used to be. I doubt anyone would use it

Machina: No one seems to be mentioning its biggest upside, penetration. There's a ton of spots in this game where it actually becomes a fairly big deal. Hitting 173 on 2-4 people pushing a choke is strong af, and you can do it pretty consistently on Badlands, viaduct, granary, and a few others. The 173 fucking scouts isn't a super big deal. I can't think of many situations where I've survived or tagged a scout with a full charge bodyshot that didn't die but also had <170. Its such a bland weapon that you really just have to weigh if slightly weaker scouts (yay) is worth the excitement/annoyance of penetration shots.

Lunchbox heavy items: Heavy only gets ran on last anyway, so the slight utility increase of a medium health pack doesn't seem too big. If he eats on last, he'll get fucked so idk why its still banned. The fast one should stay banned tho

Air Strike: Its not a super great weapon. You're giving up a shit ton of reliable damage for the occasional burst, but any time you use that burst it'd be preceded by a 5k streak (obvious) and would result in you dying. I doubt anyone would use it

Quick Fix: Its really not all that great anymore. The uber and move speed are both gone. You're now weighing shitty buffs vs increased heal rate. not 100% sure it should be unbanned but it should be discussed now

Phlog: I want to kill people with it in lobbies. Its only banned because you can uber with it on point, but that's such a niche/specific thing that I really question if its worthy of a ban

Cow Mangler: Why is this still banned? The charge shot doesn't even do anything important and the reload + no kritz kinda makes it ass

Holiday Punch: Banned cause you can block ubers with it or some shit but if you get backstabbed by a heavy we're already laughing at you

Caber: Its shit, covered earlier in the thread

Persian Persuader: You get literally one back up magazine with it equipped. Its incredibly shit

Pocket Pistol: Its shit now, unban.

BASE Jumper: I think the bug with crashing was fixed, unban

Tide Turner: It shit now, unban

Iron Bomber: Why is this banned?

Neon Annihilator + Powerjack: Literally no reason for them to be banned. Pyro to mid is still useless even with the speed boosts

Candy Cane: its shit

Back Scatter, BFB: both shit

The Anime Minigun: Its shit

Warrior's Spirit: bad gun

Cleaner's Carbine: its shit

Enforcer: its shit

Spycicle: why is this banned?

Ban the Eviction notice: you can go fast with them as heavy

Everything else seems fine (sample)

The problem with the quick fix was if you didn't run it to mid then you would be at a big disadvantage and you would lose. I still think it's the same case as it gives your medic a lot more maneuverability through rocket jumps and the quick heals are extremely useful in a straight on fight and buffs are not going to make a huge difference, plus the advantage of building uber at the quickest rate all the time you will probably get uber on midfights on some maps. It at least needs testing again before we unban it.

http://whitelist.tf/6131

I would honestly play with this.

Fist of steel might be a bit op, but have to try it out.

Maybe even unban quickfix idk how it plays atm.
Also idk how op beggars is in 6's.

If you think the rest is OP, idk what to tell you :D

Feel free to call me biased due to being an ETF2L admin, but I don't think Battalion's is that good or broken to really deserve a ban when you look at how viable and better all the other banners are. Basically it's still trading off your gunboats for +20 hp which can change the outcome in a 1v1 situation, but generally should not really be denied of use just because of peoples assumptions of its usage against Kritzkrieg or snipers.

Assumptions like that are way too specific and boils down to similar brainstorming about whether should Sun-on-a-Stick ever be allowed or not because you can put people on fire with Cow Mangler as well, that's way too situational and specific and happens maybe once in a season only in open.

fists of steel are incredibly broken especially with how arrows work and how easy it is to arrow a heavy

personally i think beggars have the direct hit problem where yea it's not broken but on the other hand it's not fun to turn a corner and find a beggars soldier with 3 rockets already loaded and just get instantly shredded

u have the wrangler unbanned that shit is fucking retarded man

Why is the Frontier Justice banned? It doesn't seem that good and 99% of the time you're in spawn about to change back to scout or roamer when your sentry goes down.

The wrangler isnt that bad anymore since they nerfed the healing while its active, thats my opinion though

oh right i forgot the wrangler, ok -wrangler its good right?

Its not too terrible but it really just encourages playing with the expectation your sentry will go down, which is kind of a given in 6s but still something silly to reward people for

Bumping: With I58 done lets have an actual discussion about this and change some things. Jerking about it on tf.tv but not changing anything is useless.

who decides what the whitelist will be?

i think they just do an invite poll like they used to (i believe). i think that it would be better that way than a bunch of random tftv people you know.

In the past Invite captains would be given a form to vote on all the weapons. The current system is literally nothing ever changes unless a bunch of people complain about an individual weapon and then Tri may or may not take a vote on it.

Not a weapon but you should be able to pick up guns now that uber drains

Yeah, that's allowed in ETF2L now

No, it's being tested in the preseason cup