http://i.imgur.com/KrujdgH.jpg

forgot that existed. last time i saw it was in a star video lmao

It's all preference. I personally use the skull cutter, but I know a lot of demo men who alternate between pain train and stock depending on map

Stock is generally the best option since there is no downside.

Pain Train isn't used that much in higher levels because of how good scouts are but I used to run it a lot when I was playing in Open or against lower level players.

I don't like the skull cutter at all because you move slow when you have it out

http://puu.sh/sPI4A/da8d8dc775.png

If you are in a situation where 10% more damage from scouts make a difference you're out of position.
If you are in a situation where 2x cap time makes a difference you are capping a point (most likely last) which means you are winning the game.

Pain train is the only reasonable choice.
Or is someone going to argue that there's such a thing as too much backcaps on last?

the half zatoichi (or however tf you spell it) is a pretty good meme as well
for roamers as well that argument holds setsul but taking more damage from scouts often isn't worth it if you are just playing passive on flank (also for demo you take 165 on a headshot with the pain train)
it's definitely situational imo
if you win mid and have advantage to push into the enemies last ofc it's nice but running it full time isn't always worth taking extra damage

now this is a fair shout

the biggest problem with the skullcutter isn't the movement speed, it's the fucking awful switch speed nerf that killed every demo melee except stock and pain train

the reach on the skullcutter is amazing but it doesn't matter if they have 5 minutes to back away before they can hit you

Nothing is scarier than a demo with pain train out because you know he just doesn't give a fuck.

I can get away with it because I've learned to spazz around so much that even in HL snipers can't headshot me.
Also medic dodging on demo confuses scouts.

No memes beyond this point:
Just go with the kaidus rule: If you're playing against cookye (substitute with any scout you know will be in your face and you'll be lucky to get out with 10hp) then switch to stock but otherwise pain train all the way.

Or on defense on A/D maps unless you're really going for the intimidation factor.

tbh I don't see it as much as a meme really since if you're having to use your melee weapon you're probably going to be out of loaded ammo and possibly at low health. Plus the extra distance and health back on kill are pretty cool upsides if you happen to get a kill with it

You made an excellent point about the positioning thing with scouts, but I would personally argue that if a team is doing a good enough job of checking hiding spots for potential backcappers, there's less of a chance that you'll actually get a backcap. Obviously if the other team isn't checking spots then kudos to you for securing another round. But I feel that if you do end up getting spotted and die while the other team is capping 2nd, it's unlikely that you'll be up in time to be in position to stop a push into mid, dependent on if the other team has uber or not. Even an off uber push can be dangerous if you get caught out because that can end up snowballing into a chance for the other team to secure another round.

It's not that the pain train is completely worthless, but being the last one left alive and having a trap up to potentially pick off the medic is a safer option imo than hiding and going for a backcap, not that it isn't a good thing to have happen during a match

the other downside to the pain train is you can get killed from full hp with a fully charged machina body shot

if you think that you can somehow avoid being killed by scouts just by having "better positioning" then you haven't played against scouts with that lethal combination of dm and >2 brain cells

no one said you can avoid dying to scouts

they said the chances of 10% more damage from a scout being the decider between living and dying are pretty low

#14
Solution is simple, get buffed or ban machina.

#15
I didn't say that. I said if 10% more damage makes a difference.
If the scout gets 4 shots on you you're dead either way.

Also all the scouts in EU outside of prem share a total of 3 brain cells and the same fucking russian internet connection.

Pain train cap bonus is not so much about last caps / backcaps, but more on quick transitions.

Say you are pushing spire and chasing the med/frags at the same time. Having the demo capping allows better classes to go for the chase. The same can work after a midfight win.

Sometimes scouts can't reach the cap fast enough (for exemple pushing out of blands last).

In these common cases pain train gives an advantage, and yes this 10% damage makes a difference (don't ever run it to granary mid).

You actually only take 155 because the crit damage ignores the weakness. You do however take 165 from a charged body shot.

I love the paintrain but with the machina allowed it probably isn't worth it with the 190 damage body shots. If your scouts are awful about capping points you might run it but really the answer here is for your scouts to get better at doing their job.

Swords and ax are bad because of draw time. The caber is bad for this reason as well plus it does shit damage now.

difference is soldier has escape plan which is so much better than every other melee that anyone not using it is at a disadvantage which is why no roamer uses pain train
demo doesn't have a melee like that and 2x capping is useful enough to offset the minimal extra damage

This is one of those things where the game would be better if people were willing to switch their unlocks around more instead of thinking of only running one the whole duration. I remember Jarrett would change his melee weapons depending on what side he was in HL stop watch maps, you guys should be creative in those regards and you can move forward the complexity that is the demoman melee meta.

not running pain train on stopwatch defense isn't exactly revolutionary tbh

Zatoichi is good because you can build with it but its not very good as a melee weapon for attacking people due to the switch speed.

you can't build with zatoichi, it's too slow