The problem is that engy dies and at worst the lose 10% uber if that, Just rebuff and push on player and uber add

yeah he dies but the path from badlands last to lobby isnt exactly the longest one + its narrow as fuck so its easy to spam

also please don't make me / other scouts abuse the soda popper to show that it's incredibly overpowered AND stupid. it's a weapon that actually takes a little bit to get used to in order to make it viable, btw, so you might not notice players being insanely good at it right away. none of you who want it in invite have ever played against it, except, afaik, me. it is without a doubt the most ridiculous weapon i've ever played against in this game. almost as OP as the RR + wrangler combo. you can jump 5 times. in case you don't know what that implies, you can make a ton of room for your team and you will never die if you know how to airstrafe. unless you have used this weapon or have played against it for multiple seasons, i would recommend not giving your opinion on this weapon.

I like how most of the people that are here bitching about the quick-fix and soda popper being unbanned weren't even at the meeting. If you don't like it being unbanned, you should have said something about it then.

I think that the quick-fix is theoretically still a broken medi-gun, but I don't think there is anything wrong in playtesting it and seeing if this holds up in practice. If in practice it is still OP and unfun to play against then just ban it straight away, just like with the Atomizer.

lol like anyone without voice permissions got taken into account sure

yeah shame that i didnt speak up when i was there

good thing the person who was hosting the whitelist discussion isn't massively biased towards unbanning weapons and more than a few select invite/prem players were allowed voice permission.

Don't assume everyone was just lazy, I'm in the same boat as rando personally.

nursey, b4nny, corsa, habib, and saam all had a lot of input. Of course, not everything that each of them argued for/against ended up going the way they wanted, but that's how a group decision works

idk what you're trying to say, but suiciding an engy defending last for 10% AT MOST is not worth it. it's essentially high risk, low reward.

ex 1 (large disad):
it only takes 4 seconds to build 10% at max building rate, but it honestly will rarely ever do 10% because it's impossible to get that close to a medic unless he deserves it. in the case it does 10%, however, the other team has large enough advantage to the point where 4 seconds AND 5v6 is beneficial for the attacking team.

ex 2 (small disad):
you should almost never suicide a player defending last if you have small disad, as you can just get your uber anyway and force them early with another offclass (for example, sniper). by that time, you should have uber.

Why do people even think that unbanning dumb weapons will magically break down stalemates
We had stalemates before and the key to break them was totally NOT from allowing different unlocks
Edit: Even thinking about changing our whitelist just for the sake that Valve will actually coop with us doesn't make any sense at all. They don't care at all, it's been proven before and all of us probably know about it. Changing the whitelist won't make them say "Oh they did it, here, have our support and take our money to organize lans!" because they didn't and never will.
Edit2: About stalemates again. We had them previously before demo changes and noone gave a shit about them, it was just how teams played? Careful playstyle leading to low risk situations.
If you wonder how it's possible to have faster paced games, all that has to be done is to revert demo changed that were made before. You probably won't even have to nerf med/scout combo.

http://whitelist.tf/6781

I'd personally ban xBow, but that's pretty controversial, so I've left it out. I personally think that it makes uber be built to quickly which causes stalemates and rewards bad positioning as you can easily get 100+ health from super long range.

The entire point of tf2 is to play for fun while showing the most skill possible. I've kept the weapons nobody uses while getting rid of the crutches that are any degree of aids to play against.

With the current whitelist, we're keeping things that are annoying just because some people in the invite illuminati said that it's better to unban as many weapons as possible for the sake of it.

lol

You say you want to show the most skill possible but you want to ban the xbow? Not enough teams do arrow building to make it a worthy ban and if you know a team is arrow building it's not that hard to abuse/pressure them.

I think the xBow is the least of our problems when they just unbanned the quick fix, solemn vow, and soda popper

Just a question, why are taunts like Conga and Flippin' Awesome banned?

Is it because they allow you to go into third person while also being able to untaunt instantly?

Because I'm guilty of occasionally using those taunts for that.

answered your own question

Oh, I was right.

...dammit, no more exploiting my Conga.

so who voted for this shit? just so we know who to never trust again

playing against a soda popper scout as a non-hitscan class is literally the most retarded thing in this game

also does nobody fucking remember season 14

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kJie5tG_t4&ab_channel=teamfortress.tv

EDIT: on that note, who voted for the atomizer and jarate to be allowed because they are also idiots

My idea for balancing jarate is to divide the soaked time by the amount of players hit. For example, if I hit 4 players with 1 jarate jar, they would each have jarate on them for 2.5 seconds. Please tell me if I'm dumb, but i think this is alright.

same concept with mad milk

Also for the machina, if valve made the rate of fire and/or reload time slower, then I think it would be more ideal and fit the playstyle that most 6s sniper use, which is to just charge up and and go for one pick. At the same time, its downsides may make another player not use it, making it kinda balanced.

Ofc these are going to have to be made by valve. :(

just my two cents

A little step towards balancing the jarate

Make it disappear from players when the sniper dies

No stupid sac plays anymore

season 14 was also different af tho

scout was a lot weaker, demo was stronger, and the game was slower. Since then the QF has been nerfed multiple times and one of its biggest advantages has been removed. its probably still shit but that's a pretty bad reason to imply its still shit

machina nerf should be chipshots make it unscope (or reset the charge or smth)
you get better charged shots but you gotta work for them

what's changed since s14

stickies have been nerfed - kritz is much harder to pull off because of it, but the spam reduction makes it easier to push through chokes i guess, also demos are able to put out much less damage to dps megaheal with stickies outside of chokes

medics can run fast with scouts - okay whatever

no axtinguisher, also degreaser does slightly more dps

heavy has lower immediate dps unless constantly firing, also brass beast and tomislav exist but that's not a huge deal because stock is the best at dealing with quick-fix

loose cannon wasn't in its present state (did it exist?)

in short - kritz demo lost a lot of effectiveness (which makes qf better), qf lost its ability to cap while ubered and other mediguns run with stock speed (which are both significant losses but relatively minor),

and the five main problems (that you can jump away from bad fights, that it awful vs offclassing, that is awful at pushing through chokes, that it outheals the medigun significantly in normal not-instantly-over team fights, and that it builds faster than and stalemates with medigun ubercharge) are still fucking stupid and bullshit

Although I agree that chat should have been taken into consideration more some prem/invite player or league admin could have spoken up against it, but didn't.

Slin actually barely had any influence in the discussion. It was mostly the people that spoke up.

Why didn't this meeting happen at the *beginning* of the off season? I'm pretty sure y'all remember that people were kind of annoyed when you did the exact same thing throwing changes at people at the last minute before S23. If you really want to give people time to experiment, can you plan a little further in advance next time?

Don't get me wrong--I've been a little out of the loop, and I'm grateful to the people who care enough about TF2's future to organize and attend these meetings. But S23 ended early in December. Why wait?

There were several factors, we wanted to wait till after the christmas update incase there were any balance changes in that, then combined with Christmas, new years and just finding an agreeable time for most parties is why it happens now.

quick fix being relatively better would mean its less shitty at pushing through chokes, meaning it wouldn't stalemate as much

thank you mr slin i almost started playing 6s again you are really just the angel on my shoulder

stop overexaggerating

the op weapons are going to get rebanned the next time teams scrim with this whitelist.

That's understandable, but you're talking about inevitable post-meeting adjustments anyway, so it's not like this was ever going to be accomplished in one go. It's easy to criticize as someone who wasn't involved, but I think giving the community more time would have been a positive thing even with an impending update.