RIP Jarate 2k16-2k17 u will always be remembered in comp D:

Let's make our own whitelist for next season while leaving LAN with the previous global whitelist. This way we can show the admins what a majority of their playerbase supports as most of us don't agree to the ground rule of the global whitelist that as many unlocks should be allowed as possible.

The whitelist that just got made was just some advice made by a small percentage of the player base. If the admins see that most players support banning the quick fix, many of whom might quit if it gets unbanned, they'll listen to the larger constituency, especially if it gets some top level support

If revising the whitelist is going to be a semi regular thing it's probably worth formalising the test procedure, call it a provisional test whitelist and have a set period of a week for revisions which are then applied.

It's silly to have the process end with "well an admin might want to use it", etc, when it's obvious some of the decisions will be controversial.

We have often struggled to get good testing from preseason cups because top teams rarely play them, they dont seem to want to test anything in a formal format. As for a poll it may be hard to prevent people from making alts to influence a vote, which while it may seem like people wouldnt go to that effort for a tf2 comp poll, people have put more effort in for less reward before.

i feel like i'm watching the death of a nation

We could use a strawpoll where you can only submit once per computer. I doubt there would be that much malicious intent

All strawpoll can do is ip verification or put a cookie on your browser, both of which can be easily avoided. There is no easy way to do secure online voting when you dont know the list of people who are going to vote.

I think a good way to nerf the crossbow is to give a medic less charge when hitting an arrow. In my opinion arrow building is dumb mechanic that wasn't supposed to be in the game. This way medics will only use the crossbow when it's really needed (someone is about to die or take fall damage).

It will be better to build with the medigun, because every time you arrow you will lose some charge. I'm not saying you should get nothing from hitting an arrow, but I think you should get less charge so building an uber with a scout is faster.

Can't you just do a poll the same way as the season awards? Just have everyone added from prem and ask them

I'm curious; Quick-Fix was banned season 14 of ESEA. Was it ever allowed in ETF2L?

Nah, it never was

Prem/Invite != Every player who will be playing this season

Thanks.

i cant wait to roam in pcws tonight haha

True, but honestly do you want to listen to every player that just joined comp and only played pubs?

Maybe a better way would be to add every team leader and ask them to give one general answer from the team.

Sandman needs a rework. Stun mechanics have no place in any game imo.

Crossbow builds uber faster than the normal medigun and it has an insane heal rate.

?

I was thoroughly disappointed by this meeting. Lack of structure, unproportional representation, little meaningful discussion and most importantly a lack of formality. This meeting has so many flaws that it should be viewed as illegitimate and the results should be ignored. Do it correctly next time.

Well, its easy to be "smart" afterwards, but still. Like Ondkaja said above, this whole "thing" didnt have any structure.

Atleast there could have been "timelines" about discussions, or something. Now listening to it if you werent there for the whole time, pretty much couldn't catch up to what was the discussion currently going on. About a specific weapon, situation or just rambling. Well, luckily the bans/unbans were stated clearly on a post afterwards, so we didn't have to look for them ourselves or something.

But yeah, for next time, at least I would like this to be more formal and actually get a good amount of top level players to discuss about things. When this thing was presented like that, I don't feel like it achieved anything positive, which is sad...

After reading this thread in its entirety I am compelled to make a few points:

1) "You didn't show up at the meeting so it's your own fault that you weren't able to add any of your input" - You can't just arbitrarily set a meeting time and only take into consideration the opinions of those who showed up and consider it an accurate representation of what the community wants. Many people have other things going on in their lives may not want, understandably, to sit through a 1+ hour "discussion" about something they have no desire to debate *as long as their vote is taken into consideration.

2) To address the pink elephant in the room, not everyone's opinion matters. If you've never played top-level TF2 then we simply cannot trust that your opinion is based on any merit simply because of your, likely, shallow understanding of the game mechanics. The game needs to be designed around top-level play and the only input that should be taken into consideration during the decision making process should be those that have proven to understand the game mechanics on a deep level aka top invite/prem or somewhere close. We need input from many of these people as we can even if that means tallying votes throughout multiple weeks but it shouldn't take so long as we are organized.

tldr - Debate all you want but whatever you do, only take those who have proven to be good at the game into consideration and get as many votes out of them as you can even if they didn't show up to the meeting.

LMFAO team fights with four soda popper scouts would be a fucking aerial dogfight
Welcome to ace combat 2 + hats

So did everyone that played and experienced Season 14 lose all memory of it?

If sadly that is the case, here is big gig's video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OalWDhYfdeg

I can't even begin to fathom how anyone thinking unbanning the Quick Fix is a smart idea. It's broken in so many aspects.

The person playing Medic could be a complete fucking moron and still be okay using because it covers more or less every basic skill that any Medic would need to be remotely competent. Thanks to the attribute of being able to explosive jump with Soldiers and Demos you don't need to be smart with positioning which makes the game all the more fun for the roamers in the game, losing out on a Medic kill where you did everything right but it doesn't matter. because his pocket can just rocket jump him away from you. In addition to this sticky traps become way less of an issue since well you can just bring a medic through any choke with you. I'm aware that doesn't apply to all chokes but the fact that you can just waltz by an area in such a fashion and have to force nothing for it is already beyond stupid.

Not that forcing would matters anyway considering the weapon is always building at max rate thanks to how healing in the game works and right now it will out trade every medigun in the game with the exception of a REALLY good kritz that in most cases unless rockets/stickies are perfectly aimed won't do enough damage to deal with the 300% faster healing. Oh and the fact that having this weapon in the game assures we'll have Heavies on last because pushing past a heavy you can't kill sure as hell is fun.

Then outside of its specific uses the weapon just heals faster, its a medigun that allows for EVEN more mobility while at the same time offering no punishment for the fact since well your classes recover faster and those heals are coming with you anyway. But as long as we change up the meta that is okay right!!!!

Yeah lets make the meta less stale by making it so you have no option but to run the Quick Fix and every other thing that comes with that. Don't get me wrong I'm all for testing and experimenting but we tried it before with this weapon and banned it again because despite our community thinking it'll speed up the game it did nothing but make it more stale.

Not like anything will get done anyway as anyone with basic brain function could tell you Valve has done fuck all to make these weapons more suited for a competitive environment. Yet we still make actions like they are going to do something I guess? You know the same company that couldn't fix a Battalion's Backup bug without completely breaking explosive jumping. The same company that continues to buff weapons like the Sydney Sleeper and evidently doesn't give a fuck about the meta game that has been tried and tested over the years and sure we can argue that its arbitrary and that it doesn't incorporate all of the game. But I'd rather play a fair and enjoyable game with rules decided by those that clearly know what the fuck they are talking about, not a degenerate cheese fest designed by an all the people crying who are sad they can't full time pyro and play on fucking dom_canalzone.

And I'm not even gonna start and the Soda Popper, if you have any opinion other than it should be banned then I don't know what to tell you.

I actually have no problem with the notion that decisions should be made from the top down, I just think the method that slin and b4nny have devised here to do it is almost guaranteed to lead to unsatisfactory outcomes. I mean, 90% of the invite/prem players in this thread are complaining about unlocks as well.

I don't understand what was wrong with the old invite poll system, where 1 representative from each team was asked about the unlocks and then the votes were tallied once EVERYONE's was in. I realize that was just for esea, but why not just do the same thing but with people from etf2l/ozfortress/whatever getting a vote as well?

Benefits from that system:

1. no "first come, first serve" issue where people who couldn't make the meeting have no say whatsoever
2. certainly none of this voice permission shit where people are saying they couldn't even talk
3. no letting a few alpha males cuck the entire rest of the players into going along with their ideas/ballots are closed so no peer pressure (most invite players these days are 17 year old weebs so this is essential)
4. publish the results AFTER the fact so that, while the decision making itself is not affected by outside biases, the community does get to know which players were responsible for which opinion so the correct people get criticized if the whitelist sucks

I am fairly confident that, at the very least, the soda popper and quick fix would not have been allowed if all this happened

ALSO:

1 medic main, 3 scout mains, and habib

HASSASSIN HOW COULD YOU LET THIS HAPPEN

habib was spouting random shit the whole time like "give demo a shotgun" lmao

slin snuck angel dust into habibs chronic

confirmed

he did make a couple of jokes but just in case people who couldn't / didn't attend get the wrong idea, most of what he said was constructive and part of real discussion

pushing against a quick-fix heavy on last should be fun

Don't play stupid.

Can someone please tell me what has valve actually said about the future of comp tf2? because from what i've understood this is all happening based on some vague assumptions about what valve wants.

I think the biggest source of problems in this discussion is that not everyone wants the whitelist / blacklist to do the same thing.
People seem to either want:

1) only game breaking weapons banned
(and are fine with allowing things that aren't fun to play with / against or are overpowered or take no skill to use as long as they aren't going to ruin the game)

2) to ban all the weapons that takes no skill to use, decreases the skill potential, or requires minimal strategy

3) ban all the unlocks that aren't fun to play with / against

4) some combination of all of the above

At first I was super against allowing all the dumb weapons but at this point I think it would be fine to allow them for a short time to test them and then ban them later on if they slow down the game or make playing 6s complete aids.

For example we tried out jarate and although it wasn't "game breaking" it's pretty hard to say that it isn't overpowered and unfun to play against so now we can ban it for those reasons.

All that being said i think that unbanning the soda popper is completely autistic.
Even if it takes a while to charge the hype meter it's still giving scout fucking 6 jumps and it can still out dps the stock scatter in extended fights.

Does anybody not remember ibby out damaging and out fragging enigma in highlander with that thing?

also quickfix is aids

#203

it's pretty insane how the moment saam had to brb everybody wanted to unban almost everything.

Im fairly confident in that prediction as well.

If i remember correctly, the only people who didn't want the soda popper were, interestingly, the scout mains, me and saam. There was one other person I think but I'm not sure who it was.