This isn't a very complete response, but I wanted to make sure to give feedback.

Don't take the fickle, childish, complainy nature of the TF2 comp community with regards to maps or new things, or the disorganization of UGC or other leagues too much to heart. And don't take those things as actual judgements or negative feedback on the actual quality of your map.

One of the most pleasant 6v6 matchmaking games I've played was as Medic on Vanguard. I think it has merit. Don't toss it in the garbage because UGC had a "wave of hate" about the map, or for other equally silly reasons.

In the end it's your call what you do, obviously; it's your time. I think Product is fine as it is (minus me hating the name) but I would welcome a second look at Vanguard if it's what people want. Maybe the community has grown up a bit since Tough Break? I guess we'll see.

Vanguard always did feel a bit odd to me. My first exposure to it as a competitive map was when it was put into the HL map rotation, so having to basically play it a different way than what it was imagined to be by the creator (a 6v6 map) kind of had me dismiss it once I had my run playing it.

I'd certainly be willing to try it in a 6v6 setting, but I still do associate vanguard with 5cp HL, which isn't always the most fun at times to play. With enough playtesting and feedback it could certainly become a good 6v6 map, but 5cp HL at its core feels a bit too chaotic (although in saying that I only speak for my opinion) and depending on the map the level of chaos can fluxuate

Also thank you for all the work you've done on product and best of luck to you in the future if your career ends up having some roots in tf2 mapmaking. If not, still good luck in your job hunting!!

Thanks for the kind words
It's definitely a decent map in its own right but I always wonder what's the missing element to comp acclaim. I have this tendency to assume it's something inherently wrong with the map but I could never pinpoint what it is.

Vanguard is way, way too big. It's too big for 6s and too big for Highlander.

It's also quite possibly the best 12v12 5CP pub map in the game due to that size, large amount of health kits and flanks, and multiple angles to kill sentries and flank even in a 24 player clusterfuck.

But I am not sure the issues with Vanguard can be fixed because they are inherent to the map's design.

I'm not a mapper, but I've noticed that 6s maps follow certain patterns. The main 6s maps have a large focus on vertical geometry that promotes dynamic play. Vanguard tries to do this on its mid with the central wooden plank, but because the map is so wide, the side routes are safer and easier to get to, and the plank is so exposed, the center plank becomes literally useless. It also tries to do this on 2nd with the useless tower and on last, but all combat on last is a clusterfuck on the boring ground floor because the angles are awkward for shooting down and the cap time is so fast. Interesting 6s points like Viaduct mid and Process 2nd offer high ground that can be used tactically (double jumping onto rock, jumping onto the spire) rather than only being able to be used strategically (pushing Vanguard last from top right), which creates interesting options for fights, and good high ground is often in a risky position rather than a safe position, which forces teams and players to evaluate risk/reward rather than always walking up top left or right on Vanguard middle.

That's the second thing. Vanguard middle is a depression - the center cap point is low ground. This heavily promotes passive play and favors defenders. Pressuring the cap is a huge commitment so nobody bothers. Teams can respawn and take high ground and spam down very easily. Most 6s maps are hills - Badlands, Metalworks, Viaduct, Snakewater, and kind of Gullywash (it's not really a hill but the center is high ground) - once you force the defending team off the middle point, they're on disadvantageous ground and can't contest anymore, and must leave, Uber, or die. Granary and Product are the only two maps that allow Snipers easy access to prime real estate high ground, but Granary catwalk sightline is negated by the ability to splash the wall and kind of lessened by the sightine blockers of the crates (also Granary is a shit map) while Product is small enough that you can just jump the Sniper or force him back by spamming walls, and the sightlines are either vulnerable or only cover certain entrances.

The third thing is that there are only 2.5-3 entrances between 2nd and mid on most 5cp maps. Badlands has choke, forward spawn, and Haunter as its .5 entrance. Gullywash has choke, big door, and dropdown as its .5. Sunshine has whole entrances, but due to its smaller size, its easier for the defending team to cover them all. It's really hard for a team pushing into 2nd or mid to cover all the entrances of Vanguard, even in Highlander, and the size and number of entrances makes unavoidable, luck-based backcaps and flanks open up because checking everywhere is so time-inefficient that you just have to hope they're not backcapping, because if you do spend the time checking they'll get spawns and you can't push mid anymore (which isnt' helped by the fact that the center of Vanguard mid is a deathtrap and the edges of it are easily accessible and safe).

The fourth thing is holy fuck the Sniper sightlines on 2nd and mid are bullshit. Vanguard 2nd has the Sniper play so far back that nothing can touch him outside of Spies while being able to shut down every entrance of lobby that matters. Vanguard mid is smaller, but the Sniper can see everything and has high ground which limits how much you can punish him.

tl;dr it seems like succesful 6s maps are, compared to vanguard, smaller, more vertical, have the centers of 2nd/mid on high ground instead of low ground, have 2.5-3 entrances between 2nd and mid, and either make sniper sightlines vulnerable or use cover to limit how much they can see at any given position.

I hope this helps in some way. I admire and appreciate all mappers for the extreme amounts of effort, persevering through daunting amounts of hate. Thank you for your service!

Also, I liked it better when you could splash through the wall on the bridge of Product, because fuck Snipers.

One thing that doesn't help too much is the fact that it's a linear map. A lot of popular maps have some sort of S shape that allows you to use advantages to push through the short and cramped way to cut people off when normally it'd be difficult, compared to the large and safe way. The only map that has survived through the ESEA map pool cycle with a linear design is granary, and it's one of the least popular maps still around anyway, skating by since the choke points for the most part aren't crazy wide apart. When your map gets too wide it can become difficult to help your flank getting pushed if your most advantageous door to transition through was on the opposite side of the map. Having a linear map imo doesn't automatically make the map terrible, but it definitely doesn't help it become good.

I know the HL community complained about last being too hard to push but at first glance it kind of looks like it might be too hard to hold for 6s. The right door looks difficult to control, the capture point is pretty big, and the transitional "lobby" area that exists throughout lasts like process, snakewater, and gullywash now has to be either held by the defending team (which isolates your heals), or given away traditionally (with untraditional height disadvantage being the issue).

I also don't think the transitional lobby between 2nd and mid is that popular because with all of the doorways being so spacious it seems very easy to get behind and find a path to get to 2nd due to everything being intertwined, compared to every map in the pool we have now where people have defined chokepoints/hallways/doorways that it's their job to clear.

I don't think Vanguard becoming a good map for 6s is 100% out of the question personally, but it would definitely require a lot of reworking for that to happen.

The spawn in last is pretty clunky to get out fast

We're stubborn as fuck to change.

holy fuck i've never seen a thread with this level of quality discussion on tftv ever

I've played vanguard in highlander and pubs and have enjoyed the map.
Keep working on it.

I feel that if you cut down on the amount of flanks the map has, made mid a bit more exciting, and changed the spawn room on last to be more accessable for spawners to defend, it would be a good map.

great post fubar. i think in general the competitive community underestimates how difficult it is to put together a playable map by an enormous amount, much less a competitively viable, fun, and well made map. posts like this are definitely illuminating to the community at large.