You have clearly misconstrued my point so I will try and make it more clear.

The amount of points or objectives the map or game mode has in it has zero to do with what I am talking about. It could be a single cap point or it could be a DOM game with 30 caps, the number does not matter. All I am talking about is how the base game flows, and in CS, much like KOTH it is have better aim then the other dudes. Now this is not an accurate statement because all of TF2 is just have better aim and you will win more fights, but the way KOTH presents itself makes it much more action oriented then 5cp is.

My point also was not that KOTH is a better game mode to play, my point was that KOTH gives a better spectator experience then 5cp does, and because of that it is objectively a better game mode to stream and produce for, nothing more than that.

The basic rules of 5cp are very hard for new people to understand, you don't see it because you have been playing them for a long time but understanding ammo management, buffs, uber management and positioning are all very complex game mechanics that people that do not play will not get. Now add the fact that there are two locations that you need to watch. KOTH on the other hand presents itself as shoot the other guys until they die and you get the point, no stalemates because of the round timer. The action keeps up and it is easier to follow because there are no flanks, but at the same time there is a large complexity as to the positioning of players and how to play around advantages. I am not going to argue about koth vs. 5cp for what is more complex because that is a waste of time. At low levels koth is a DM fest and at high levels KOTH is the most strat oriented map.

Because ur dumb and ragequits in scrims, it's not because of the map

Yeah, because it is really polite to leave mid scrim.

haha implying I was talking about me and my team.
Nobody wants to scrim on it = no team wants to play the map outside the official week when product is being played.
Feel free to ask team leaders or any member of any team in high if I've ever ragequited. I think it was mostly your fault for not being respectful to the teams you play against.

Not to mention your follow up attacking me personally, that was really impolite and I've never insulted you back.

this is getting a bit personal
take it off the forums lol nobody wants to read this

5cp is inherently stalematey, I will never understand why 6's players so vehemently defend it. I feel like 6's would be in a much better place, especially spectator wise, if the rotation was mostly koth maps.

5cp isn't stalematey by nature. Ubercharges make the game stalemate. The maps merely magnify the stalemates

also there are more people than you think that want more koth maps but other than bagel there aren't a ton that are actually good

I dont think the problem is 6s players not wanting to play koth, its that there just arent many good koth maps that have to potential to be played in 6s (with the exception of maybe bagel/ashville). Even if you think that koth is more fun, I'd much rather play a really good, well balanced 5cp map(snake,process,gully,badlands) than forcing shitty koth maps into the rotation. maybe start by adding one more koth map into the rotation before you look at making the rotation "mostly koth maps".

i really like granary :/

Ok first of all:

Those are not the basic rules of 5cp.
The basic rules are:
You stand on a point for a bit you get the point.
You get all 5 points you win the round.
You win more rounds than the enemy in 30 minutes you win the game.
It doesn't get much simpler than that.
The things you named are not basic and they're not rules either.
Plus they apply to koth aswell.

The other thing you said is how koth is more action oriented than 5cp (which is true)
and that that makes it more like CS (which I don't agree with at all).
In CS there's A LOT of times when no real action happens, nobody is shooting, maybe someone throws a flash or a smoke, takes a quick look onto a bomb site then goes back and sometimes teams (attacking) just flat out let the clock run down until there's barely enough time left for them to plant the bomb (I remember Na'Vi was known to play like this).
I'd argue that there's a lot more 'dead time' in CS than there is in 5cp.
I also think that that's also one of the big reasons CS is so popular.
Watching a bunch of guys shooting each other in the face non stop get's dull pretty quickly, because the viewer can't really put himself into the players mind and and try to figure out what he's thinking, why he's doing what he's doing.
It's just he sees a guy, he points at him, he shoots over and over again and that's just not intellectually challenging at all.
It's exciting as a player, because it's your hands doing it, but for a viewer it get's pretty boring.
So it's during those slower moments in a match where the viewer can really see and follow a players thought process, the stuff that goes beyond just pointing and clicking and isn't purely reactive and muscle memory.
Those slow moments emphasize the importance of the action that'll happen next and get's you invested in the outcome of the next gun fight and makes it more interesting than just seeing gun fight after gun fight and knowing each of them of them doesn't matter as much because the next one will happen right after.

Think of other popular eSports. Most of them have slower phases. In Dota2/Lol the teams don't just go at each other right away, they first level up or whatever they do (don't really know shit about those games, jsut know that players kill bots first to level their characters) or something like Starcraft where players first build their armies/bases for a while and it's not constant fighting, but theirs a built up.
Or Quake. It happens a bunch that players just leave each other alone for long-ish periods of time until they are both happy with their stacks or that one player flat out tries to hide from the other guy because he wan't to keep his lead and let the clock run out.
In none of those games people are crying about stalemates and complaining that there are some slower moments and not non stop action.

I think one big reason FPS games traditionally weren't as big in terms of eSports is that they often lack strategic dept that is visible to the viewer, because the rest of it really comes down to pointing and clicking, which is fun as a player, but doesn't really get you involved as much as a viewer.
And that's one thing that CSGO does right. Because it's a slow paced game as far as FPS go, where you have a build up to the action and can really see the thoughts that go into what players are doing.

Making a king of the hill map seems straightforward enough (at least compared to A/D).

What would you need to do to make a good A/D map? Make it linear? Or 3cp gpit style but make rotation between A&B very easy? Would it be best to favor attackers over defenders to try and minimize annoying off classes?

I would be interested in making a map in one of these styles after Logjam gets to a good spot. I've learned so much with logjam it would be a waste to not use the experience.

trying to bring a/d back into the rotation is a huge waste of time as its been so long now people will just flame it on top of the fact that it's actually just a bad game mode.

i've said for a while that we should have more than one koth map though, and i think it'd be a lot easier to make a good koth map than a good 5cp. only need to make sure 1 point is balanced and dont need to worry about map flow and shit.

koth_warmfront should be a thing we should work on imo. one of the best mids in the game...rest of the map was booty tho

i thought koth was harder to balance than 5cp. its naturally more steamrolly and the area needs to be really balanced between spawn and the point. 5cp i figured has more leeway with one side being biased because the gametype sort of guarantees you a chance to set up when youre starting to lose.

The good koth map that isn't product is bagel.

Warmfront and ashville/coalplant should be looked at again. I'd lean towards coalplant for the sole reason that ScorpioUprising is more active than mackey.

I'd drop repeating a map for bagel any day of the week, and either metalworks or sunshine for warmfront or ashville/coalplant if one of them gets community support.

5cp easily has more strategies than koth because it has 5 points instead of one. The only novel strategies on viaduct are stepping off a point and holding forward for like 5 seconds to spam people trying to walk though a doorway lol. Otherwise it's just the simple concept of shoot scouts and devour soldiers and stand on point idiot(unless you've been smoking sticky icky mr. slin "sometimes it's advantageous to drop uber"). Also no matter what this game will never really be a spectator thing.