What if the map just simply open the 4th routes to the 2nd point after time out?
Balance the extra middle area (2.5) gonna be nightmare cause both team start from different point (mid to 2.5, 2nd to 2.5). Also the whole map has to be built around it
Mr Slin - Potential Fixes for 5cp in Comp TF2
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What if the map just simply open the 4th routes to the 2nd point after time out?
Balance the extra middle area (2.5) gonna be nightmare cause both team start from different point (mid to 2.5, 2nd to 2.5). Also the whole map has to be built around it
Balance the extra middle area (2.5) gonna be nightmare cause both team start from different point (mid to 2.5, 2nd to 2.5). Also the whole map has to be built around it
i mean even just adding a small point off to the side between two adjacent points that, when captured by a team, gives you a banner effect or something might work.
i mean even just adding a small point off to the side between two adjacent points that, when captured by a team, gives you a banner effect or something might work.
GentlemanJonChanges have to stop moving in a defensive direction. Air stickies are worse so demomen are worse going forward. There are more healing and defensive options because we've unbanned the unlocks. These incremental changes all add up, large or bizarre changes aren't needed.
Even when unlocks were banned, stalemates were a big problem in TF2. You can't blame 5cp stalemates on unlocks alone because it's quite obvious that the format itself promotes stalemates.
The best way to currently play 5cp is to get a round ahead of the enemy team and then comfortably hold a forward point until the timer runs out, then go for a push last-minute so the enemy team doesn't even have time to reset if they successfully defend. The fact that this is the best way to play 5cp makes it fundamentally broken.
Weapons need to be made better in attacking situations to encourage and reward players for getting into attacking situations.
And how do you suppose we can do this? Most weapons can be used both offensively and defensively. I don't see what stats we could change on weapons to make them more strictly offensive.
Maps could do with making entry into points easier so ubers don't get popped so early for the attackers and low risk holds on points could be made riskier.
I agree with this. This is why I personally despise granary for its chokepoints that will force you to uber early so often.
Methods of disrupting the uber cycle could be made easier as uber asymmetry helps aggression.
Yes, but this doesn't change the fact that pushing out of last is very risky on top of being difficult.
Make Kritz viable.
Kritz is viable already, just situational. Teams have learned to play against Kritz so it only really works as a surprise now.
5cp isn't broken, it's like Soccer was 30 years ago before changes were made to encourage more attacking play.
Changes can be made to 5cp to encourage attacking play, which is exactly what Slin talked about. It would still be 5cp but the rules would change, or something would be added to 5cp to increase aggression.
[quote=GentlemanJon]Changes have to stop moving in a defensive direction. Air stickies are worse so demomen are worse going forward. There are more healing and defensive options because we've unbanned the unlocks. These incremental changes all add up, large or bizarre changes aren't needed.[/quote]
Even when unlocks were banned, stalemates were a big problem in TF2. You can't blame 5cp stalemates on unlocks alone because it's quite obvious that the format itself promotes stalemates.
The best way to currently play 5cp is to get a round ahead of the enemy team and then comfortably hold a forward point until the timer runs out, then go for a push last-minute so the enemy team doesn't even have time to reset if they successfully defend. The fact that this is the best way to play 5cp makes it fundamentally broken.
[quote]Weapons need to be made better in attacking situations to encourage and reward players for getting into attacking situations.[/quote]
And how do you suppose we can do this? Most weapons can be used both offensively and defensively. I don't see what stats we could change on weapons to make them more strictly offensive.
[quote]Maps could do with making entry into points easier so ubers don't get popped so early for the attackers and low risk holds on points could be made riskier.[/quote]
I agree with this. This is why I personally despise granary for its chokepoints that will force you to uber early so often.
[quote]Methods of disrupting the uber cycle could be made easier as uber asymmetry helps aggression.[/quote]
Yes, but this doesn't change the fact that pushing out of last is very risky on top of being difficult.
[quote]Make Kritz viable.[/quote]
Kritz is viable already, just situational. Teams have learned to play against Kritz so it only really works as a surprise now.
[quote]5cp isn't broken, it's like Soccer was 30 years ago before changes were made to encourage more attacking play.[/quote]
Changes can be made to 5cp to encourage attacking play, which is exactly what Slin talked about. It would still be 5cp but the rules would change, or something would be added to 5cp to increase aggression.
Even when unlocks were banned, stalemates were a big problem in TF2. You can't blame 5cp stalemates on unlocks alone because it's quite obvious that the format itself promotes stalemates.
The best way to currently play 5cp is to get a round ahead of the enemy team and then comfortably hold a forward point until the timer runs out, then go for a push last-minute so the enemy team doesn't even have time to reset if they successfully defend. The fact that this is the best way to play 5cp makes it fundamentally broken.
[quote]Weapons need to be made better in attacking situations to encourage and reward players for getting into attacking situations.[/quote]
And how do you suppose we can do this? Most weapons can be used both offensively and defensively. I don't see what stats we could change on weapons to make them more strictly offensive.
[quote]Maps could do with making entry into points easier so ubers don't get popped so early for the attackers and low risk holds on points could be made riskier.[/quote]
I agree with this. This is why I personally despise granary for its chokepoints that will force you to uber early so often.
[quote]Methods of disrupting the uber cycle could be made easier as uber asymmetry helps aggression.[/quote]
Yes, but this doesn't change the fact that pushing out of last is very risky on top of being difficult.
[quote]Make Kritz viable.[/quote]
Kritz is viable already, just situational. Teams have learned to play against Kritz so it only really works as a surprise now.
[quote]5cp isn't broken, it's like Soccer was 30 years ago before changes were made to encourage more attacking play.[/quote]
Changes can be made to 5cp to encourage attacking play, which is exactly what Slin talked about. It would still be 5cp but the rules would change, or something would be added to 5cp to increase aggression.
I really like basketball as a sport for it's dynamic back and forth play and how quickly plays happen. In basketball the offensive "push" of a team is limited to a certain amount of time.
At this point in time in 5cp tf2, there's a gentleman's agreement that the team that controls more points is held to make a play if numbers are equal (since the roundtimer running out potentially will put them in a worse spot than before).
I think there should be an incentive for the team with more points to push, beyond the current gentleman's agreement.
Example: If a team caps a point they have a certain amount of time to push the next one (for example 2-3 minutes), after that time the team on the defense gets an advantage (for example a global banner effect). Thereby teams that have a lead and prefer to trickle down the timer even though it's theoretically their turn to push will be punished.
I'm not trying to belittle a playstyle that controls the game and relies on making your enemies push and making mistakes, especially at the higher levels. I'll even give credit to the teams that have the discipline to pull it off. The only problem with it is that, how Gentleman John has mentioned before, unlocks and certain classes are stronger in a defensive postion, thereby making this playstyle the strongest one and others unfeasable. And i don't expect any reasonable weapon balancing from valve to change this anytime soon.
My proposal would turn the gentleman's agreement into a rule of sorts and punish teams for parking the bus. Obviously there are flawless where it works counterintuitivel (for example leapfrogging on mid, where the team losing the point would already have an advantage to retake, on the other hand, if the timer is long enough and they wait for it, they'll lose their original (uber-)advantage.
Sorry for the wall of text!
I really like basketball as a sport for it's dynamic back and forth play and how quickly plays happen. In basketball the offensive "push" of a team is limited to a certain amount of time.
At this point in time in 5cp tf2, there's a gentleman's agreement that the team that controls more points is held to make a play if numbers are equal (since the roundtimer running out potentially will put them in a worse spot than before).
I think there should be an incentive for the team with more points to push, beyond the current gentleman's agreement.
Example: If a team caps a point they have a certain amount of time to push the next one (for example 2-3 minutes), after that time the team on the defense gets an advantage (for example a global banner effect). Thereby teams that have a lead and prefer to trickle down the timer even though it's theoretically their turn to push will be punished.
I'm not trying to belittle a playstyle that controls the game and relies on making your enemies push and making mistakes, especially at the higher levels. I'll even give credit to the teams that have the discipline to pull it off. The only problem with it is that, how Gentleman John has mentioned before, unlocks and certain classes are stronger in a defensive postion, thereby making this playstyle the strongest one and others unfeasable. And i don't expect any reasonable weapon balancing from valve to change this anytime soon.
My proposal would turn the gentleman's agreement into a rule of sorts and punish teams for parking the bus. Obviously there are flawless where it works counterintuitivel (for example leapfrogging on mid, where the team losing the point would already have an advantage to retake, on the other hand, if the timer is long enough and they wait for it, they'll lose their original (uber-)advantage.
Sorry for the wall of text!
At this point in time in 5cp tf2, there's a gentleman's agreement that the team that controls more points is held to make a play if numbers are equal (since the roundtimer running out potentially will put them in a worse spot than before).
I think there should be an incentive for the team with more points to push, beyond the current gentleman's agreement.
Example: If a team caps a point they have a certain amount of time to push the next one (for example 2-3 minutes), after that time the team on the defense gets an advantage (for example a global banner effect). Thereby teams that have a lead and prefer to trickle down the timer even though it's theoretically their turn to push will be punished.
I'm not trying to belittle a playstyle that controls the game and relies on making your enemies push and making mistakes, especially at the higher levels. I'll even give credit to the teams that have the discipline to pull it off. The only problem with it is that, how Gentleman John has mentioned before, unlocks and certain classes are stronger in a defensive postion, thereby making this playstyle the strongest one and others unfeasable. And i don't expect any reasonable weapon balancing from valve to change this anytime soon.
My proposal would turn the gentleman's agreement into a rule of sorts and punish teams for parking the bus. Obviously there are flawless where it works counterintuitivel (for example leapfrogging on mid, where the team losing the point would already have an advantage to retake, on the other hand, if the timer is long enough and they wait for it, they'll lose their original (uber-)advantage.
Sorry for the wall of text!
5cp is completely fine
you dont mess with the mona lisa
5cp is completely fine
you dont mess with the mona lisa
you dont mess with the mona lisa
5cp is meant to play smart ( slow ) against good teams. No room for mistakes.
Having shorter timer will result in more dumb pushes.
Solutions: 1) like good old pubs, after round timer hits 0, sudden death begins.
2) add more koth maps ( where better dm team will win not necessary strategically better team )
cheers!
5cp is meant to play smart ( slow ) against good teams. No room for mistakes.
Having shorter timer will result in more dumb pushes.
Solutions: 1) like good old pubs, after round timer hits 0, sudden death begins.
2) add more koth maps ( where better dm team will win not necessary strategically better team )
cheers!
Having shorter timer will result in more dumb pushes.
Solutions: 1) like good old pubs, after round timer hits 0, sudden death begins.
2) add more koth maps ( where better dm team will win not necessary strategically better team )
cheers!
Ok so it's quite obvious that the reason 5cp is so stalematey is because teams don't have an incentive to push, my idea is so that you get rewarded for winning in the game faster. So lets say you would get 3 points if you win the round in less than 5 min, but if the round takes 15min+ then you'll only get 1 point.
Of course there would need to be some testing done to get the proper numbers, but I think this could work
Ok so it's quite obvious that the reason 5cp is so stalematey is because teams don't have an incentive to push, my idea is so that you get rewarded for winning in the game faster. So lets say you would get 3 points if you win the round in less than 5 min, but if the round takes 15min+ then you'll only get 1 point.
Of course there would need to be some testing done to get the proper numbers, but I think this could work
Of course there would need to be some testing done to get the proper numbers, but I think this could work
qkye5cp is meant to play smart ( slow ) against good teams. No room for mistakes.
tf2 was designed for competitive play?
[quote=qkye]5cp is meant to play smart ( slow ) against good teams. No room for mistakes.[/quote]
tf2 was designed for competitive play?
tf2 was designed for competitive play?
PheaaBuilding on the idea of a neutral objective at the end of the timer and more control points you could play a 5/7cp hybrid.
This idea is very interesting. I think it could work, so long as the fight is stacked towards defense. It gives a sense of urgency for the attacking team. If the neutral CP fight is stacked towards offense, then the offense team will simply not push until they can take the neutral objective to get an advantage.
So there would need to be some kind of weird door openy-closey thing going on when 2nd/mid is capped to ensure that no matter if it's a mid-2nd stalemate or a 2nd-last stalemate, the fight is always stacked towards defense.
The buff gained from capturing the neutral objective would also need to be very carefully tailored to benefit the team that gets it significantly, but not so significantly that capturing the neutral objective near-guarantees winning the next fight. Maybe something akin to the highest base health player who captures the objective getting a permanent Concheror-like speed buff (including radius for allies) until a point is capped OR a time period so you can't easily delay the mid cap and steamroll 2nd.
I don't think 5CP needs fixing or that stalemates are bad for the game. They're boring to watch, but if we are optimizing for minimal stalemates we would just play KOTH and A/D (which, by the way, we should totally do (bring back coalplant and gpit)). But this idea is very interesting.
[quote=Pheaa]Building on the idea of a neutral objective at the end of the timer and more control points you could play a 5/7cp hybrid.[/quote]
This idea is very interesting. I think it could work, so long as the fight is stacked towards defense. It gives a sense of urgency for the attacking team. If the neutral CP fight is stacked towards offense, then the offense team will simply not push until they can take the neutral objective to get an advantage.
So there would need to be some kind of weird door openy-closey thing going on when 2nd/mid is capped to ensure that no matter if it's a mid-2nd stalemate or a 2nd-last stalemate, the fight is always stacked towards defense.
The buff gained from capturing the neutral objective would also need to be very carefully tailored to benefit the team that gets it significantly, but not so significantly that capturing the neutral objective near-guarantees winning the next fight. Maybe something akin to the highest base health player who captures the objective getting a permanent Concheror-like speed buff (including radius for allies) until a point is capped OR a time period so you can't easily delay the mid cap and steamroll 2nd.
I don't think 5CP needs fixing or that stalemates are bad for the game. They're boring to watch, but if we are optimizing for minimal stalemates we would just play KOTH and A/D (which, by the way, we should totally do (bring back coalplant and gpit)). But this idea is very interesting.
This idea is very interesting. I think it could work, so long as the fight is stacked towards defense. It gives a sense of urgency for the attacking team. If the neutral CP fight is stacked towards offense, then the offense team will simply not push until they can take the neutral objective to get an advantage.
So there would need to be some kind of weird door openy-closey thing going on when 2nd/mid is capped to ensure that no matter if it's a mid-2nd stalemate or a 2nd-last stalemate, the fight is always stacked towards defense.
The buff gained from capturing the neutral objective would also need to be very carefully tailored to benefit the team that gets it significantly, but not so significantly that capturing the neutral objective near-guarantees winning the next fight. Maybe something akin to the highest base health player who captures the objective getting a permanent Concheror-like speed buff (including radius for allies) until a point is capped OR a time period so you can't easily delay the mid cap and steamroll 2nd.
I don't think 5CP needs fixing or that stalemates are bad for the game. They're boring to watch, but if we are optimizing for minimal stalemates we would just play KOTH and A/D (which, by the way, we should totally do (bring back coalplant and gpit)). But this idea is very interesting.
flawed gamemode
0 people playing competitive matchmaking
200 viewers in online tourneys/matches
150 people signed up in leagues per continent
300$ prizepools
0 sponsors
0 real esports orgs
uncommitted top level players
no developer support
LOL
flawed gamemode
0 people playing competitive matchmaking
200 viewers in online tourneys/matches
150 people signed up in leagues per continent
300$ prizepools
0 sponsors
0 real esports orgs
uncommitted top level players
no developer support
LOL
0 people playing competitive matchmaking
200 viewers in online tourneys/matches
150 people signed up in leagues per continent
300$ prizepools
0 sponsors
0 real esports orgs
uncommitted top level players
no developer support
LOL
4000 hour open player trying to be edgy
http://cdnjs.cloudflare.com/ajax/libs/twemoji/2.2.5/2/svg/1f914.svg
4000 hour open player trying to be edgy
http://cdnjs.cloudflare.com/ajax/libs/twemoji/2.2.5/2/svg/1f914.svg
http://cdnjs.cloudflare.com/ajax/libs/twemoji/2.2.5/2/svg/1f914.svg
Why do people go through the process of signing up to TFTV just to shittalk the game?
Get a life lmao
Why do people go through the process of signing up to TFTV just to shittalk the game?
Get a life lmao
Get a life lmao
diamond0wnerwhy do people still play this game
yeah exactly why do people play something for fun, why ever do anything that you couldn't be making money from
[quote=diamond0wner]why do people still play this game[/quote]
yeah exactly why do people play something for fun, why ever do anything that you couldn't be making money from
yeah exactly why do people play something for fun, why ever do anything that you couldn't be making money from
rocketslay4000 hour open player trying to be edgy
http://cdnjs.cloudflare.com/ajax/libs/twemoji/2.2.5/2/svg/1f914.svg
Its not me being edgy, those figures are a testament to just how shit this game is
[quote=rocketslay]4000 hour open player trying to be edgy
http://cdnjs.cloudflare.com/ajax/libs/twemoji/2.2.5/2/svg/1f914.svg[/quote]
Its not me being edgy, those figures are a testament to just how shit this game is
http://cdnjs.cloudflare.com/ajax/libs/twemoji/2.2.5/2/svg/1f914.svg[/quote]
Its not me being edgy, those figures are a testament to just how shit this game is
diamond0wnerflawed gamemode
0 people playing competitive matchmaking
200 viewers in online tourneys/matches
150 people signed up in leagues per continent
300$ prizepools
0 sponsors
0 real esports orgs
uncommitted top level players
no developer support
LOL
diamond0wnerrocketslay4000 hour open player trying to be edgyIts not me being edgy, those figures are a testament to just how shit this game is
http://cdnjs.cloudflare.com/ajax/libs/twemoji/2.2.5/2/svg/1f914.svg
[quote=diamond0wner]flawed gamemode
0 people playing competitive matchmaking
200 viewers in online tourneys/matches
150 people signed up in leagues per continent
300$ prizepools
0 sponsors
0 real esports orgs
uncommitted top level players
no developer support
LOL[/quote]
[quote=diamond0wner][quote=rocketslay]4000 hour open player trying to be edgy
http://cdnjs.cloudflare.com/ajax/libs/twemoji/2.2.5/2/svg/1f914.svg[/quote]
Its not me being edgy, those figures are a testament to just how shit this game is[/quote]
0 people playing competitive matchmaking
200 viewers in online tourneys/matches
150 people signed up in leagues per continent
300$ prizepools
0 sponsors
0 real esports orgs
uncommitted top level players
no developer support
LOL[/quote]
[quote=diamond0wner][quote=rocketslay]4000 hour open player trying to be edgy
http://cdnjs.cloudflare.com/ajax/libs/twemoji/2.2.5/2/svg/1f914.svg[/quote]
Its not me being edgy, those figures are a testament to just how shit this game is[/quote]
Can someone ban this edgy shitlord from derailing an actually helpful conversation?
Can someone ban this edgy shitlord from derailing an actually helpful conversation?
Pheaa idea
this actually sounds really cool, so i stole it
thought about it for a bit and then this: http://imgur.com/x2BNTnn
stuff like offclassing on last is not as strong since you need the generalist classes to get to the new point fast when it opens up.
as long as the round timer is short it should force fights often instead of having resets
thoughts?
[quote=Pheaa] idea [/quote]
this actually sounds really cool, so i stole it
thought about it for a bit and then this: http://imgur.com/x2BNTnn
stuff like offclassing on last is not as strong since you need the generalist classes to get to the new point fast when it opens up.
as long as the round timer is short it should force fights often instead of having resets
thoughts?
this actually sounds really cool, so i stole it
thought about it for a bit and then this: http://imgur.com/x2BNTnn
stuff like offclassing on last is not as strong since you need the generalist classes to get to the new point fast when it opens up.
as long as the round timer is short it should force fights often instead of having resets
thoughts?
Just posting what i posted in the other 5cp thread cause this is exactly the same.
the 5cp meta is fine and everyone who thinks that stalemates are a result of the game mode you're just wrong. Trying to force stalemates out of the meta is a lost cause considering it is a strategy that was developed by players, not by the design of he gamemode (this is why 10 minute stalemate timer is included in the gamemode). It is simply the safest and easiest way to play at high levels as top level players can turn any pick into a winning push. Its not the greatest to watch or the funnest way to play, but is effective at what it does and teams shouldn't be forced to turn away from that just because people find it boring to look at.
If you change the rules, or change the gamemode, players will develop another strategy equally as "unfun" to play against and people will complain about that too, like they always do.
Some teams stalemate more than others, that is true. But the way I see it if you can't get creative enough or have enough strats in mind to try and break a solid defense by an opposing team, do you really deserve to win anyways? Why would a team ever push against an offense they know won't win. In terms of actually winning games, there is no point.
its been said in here before, change the maps and the 5cp ruleset as much as you like, the things that are creating the problems are the mechanics of the games and mentality of the players, not the design of the gamemode.
I would say people would be better served in here trying to suggest mechanical changes as opposed to map or gamemode changes, but obviously those things are hard to implement/impossible because valve wouldn't do it. I always thought the best thing ever to make the game more fast paced would be to make uber half the duration (5 seconds) but increase the speed of the charge time by like 50% or something. Changes to the uber mechanic would be huge when it comes to this discussion as stalemating almost solely revolves around even uber situations and a huge percentage of the time breaking stalemates is about popping the other medic (obviously there are other routes, but they are far less frequently used.)
Just posting what i posted in the other 5cp thread cause this is exactly the same.
[quote]the 5cp meta is fine and everyone who thinks that stalemates are a result of the game mode you're just wrong. Trying to force stalemates out of the meta is a lost cause considering it is a strategy that was developed by players, not by the design of he gamemode (this is why 10 minute stalemate timer is included in the gamemode). It is simply the safest and easiest way to play at high levels as top level players can turn any pick into a winning push. Its not the greatest to watch or the funnest way to play, but is effective at what it does and teams shouldn't be forced to turn away from that just because people find it boring to look at.
If you change the rules, or change the gamemode, players will develop another strategy equally as "unfun" to play against and people will complain about that too, like they always do.
Some teams stalemate more than others, that is true. But the way I see it if you can't get creative enough or have enough strats in mind to try and break a solid defense by an opposing team, do you really deserve to win anyways? Why would a team ever push against an offense they know won't win. In terms of actually winning games, there is no point.[/quote]
its been said in here before, change the maps and the 5cp ruleset as much as you like, the things that are creating the problems are the mechanics of the games and mentality of the players, not the design of the gamemode.
I would say people would be better served in here trying to suggest mechanical changes as opposed to map or gamemode changes, but obviously those things are hard to implement/impossible because valve wouldn't do it. I always thought the best thing ever to make the game more fast paced would be to make uber half the duration (5 seconds) but increase the speed of the charge time by like 50% or something. Changes to the uber mechanic would be huge when it comes to this discussion as stalemating almost solely revolves around even uber situations and a huge percentage of the time breaking stalemates is about popping the other medic (obviously there are other routes, but they are far less frequently used.)
[quote]the 5cp meta is fine and everyone who thinks that stalemates are a result of the game mode you're just wrong. Trying to force stalemates out of the meta is a lost cause considering it is a strategy that was developed by players, not by the design of he gamemode (this is why 10 minute stalemate timer is included in the gamemode). It is simply the safest and easiest way to play at high levels as top level players can turn any pick into a winning push. Its not the greatest to watch or the funnest way to play, but is effective at what it does and teams shouldn't be forced to turn away from that just because people find it boring to look at.
If you change the rules, or change the gamemode, players will develop another strategy equally as "unfun" to play against and people will complain about that too, like they always do.
Some teams stalemate more than others, that is true. But the way I see it if you can't get creative enough or have enough strats in mind to try and break a solid defense by an opposing team, do you really deserve to win anyways? Why would a team ever push against an offense they know won't win. In terms of actually winning games, there is no point.[/quote]
its been said in here before, change the maps and the 5cp ruleset as much as you like, the things that are creating the problems are the mechanics of the games and mentality of the players, not the design of the gamemode.
I would say people would be better served in here trying to suggest mechanical changes as opposed to map or gamemode changes, but obviously those things are hard to implement/impossible because valve wouldn't do it. I always thought the best thing ever to make the game more fast paced would be to make uber half the duration (5 seconds) but increase the speed of the charge time by like 50% or something. Changes to the uber mechanic would be huge when it comes to this discussion as stalemating almost solely revolves around even uber situations and a huge percentage of the time breaking stalemates is about popping the other medic (obviously there are other routes, but they are far less frequently used.)
#26, there are unlocks that allow for offensive situations but people aren't making enough use of them.
Soldier has the use of banners primarily the conch and battalions, there isn't situations where enough damage isn't done so buff banner isn't really necessary.
Sniper has jarate which doesn't take too much trouble to sync with a team. Throw it in a choke, hit one player then go for a fast uber exchange with the damage bonus or even send your roamer in after the jarate goes in.
Those above are the main ones for the current meta.
These below are ideas of what can be done or experimented with.
Demo has the quickie bomb which can destroy stickies for pushes, make space for bombs and just make pushes easier.
Pyro also has a scorch shot (I know this sounds dumb) however it destroys stickies as well and can help protect a team from bombs if the push is executed once the stickies are down. (I know this also needs a lot of experimentation as to who goes this class for this kind of scenario).
Medic has kritz which can always be a good go to option and vaccinator if the team is fast enough to work it with the bubbles.
This isn't really an unlock one but double spy is always a potential strat people can make use off.
All this brainstorming is good but making a 7cp map will just end in disaster. A major restriction on pushes right now is really closed chokes. Why would you want to push through a choke like gully to go for an uber exchange when you'll either die to spam or get forced really early into a horrible uber. Other chokes that suffer from this are reckoner, process, granary and snakewater sawmill.
Grass on snakewater allows the attackers to actually take ground and make plays so there's one advantage to that.
This is why the passive setup works so good cause the chokes are so hard to counter push that you can't make anything off just a roamer pick.
Badlands has good counterplays to this as the main choke is really open and also has an open valley which allows the attackers to make and take a lot of space.
I'm not saying all chokes need to be like this. However more maps need to offer the attackers some more room to breath when pushing from mid to second and vice versa when defenders can push mid with uber advantage.
Some solutions to these issues is to add in one more koth map which seems to be quite a popular opinion from what I read.
Personally, when Sideshow wanted gravelpit back for dreamhack, I liked it cause it will always mean teams have to push or just lose from the clock but I don't think that's a possibility. If it is, we would need 2/3 maps for a map cup to find any better contender than gravelpit.
The current maps just need to have some chokes reworked so teams can try pushing without having to worry about dying from spam instantly.
An example i'll give here is on badlands, a strat we use in Lego was to uber exchange from haunter, back out to choke, heal up six people on mid then go 6v4 on choke with both soldiers leading the charge focusing the demo so the demo cannot sticky off the choke while the team follows up. This strat only works here because off the openness of the choke. There isn't many, if any other map that allows this kind of play cause the spam you will receive will be too intense in a choke like granary choke.
TL:DR Summary.
There is enough unlocks to combat this no pushing style but teams need to actually try them and be creative with them.
The current maps are ok but the chokes can be reworked on a majority to allow for some offensive plays/strats/pushes.
An additional koth map could be good as a lot of people enjoy koth.
Teams actually need to sit down and create a few strats/ideas to play and improve. Only takes 15 minutes and can be very beneficial.
#26, there are unlocks that allow for offensive situations but people aren't making enough use of them.
Soldier has the use of banners primarily the conch and battalions, there isn't situations where enough damage isn't done so buff banner isn't really necessary.
Sniper has jarate which doesn't take too much trouble to sync with a team. Throw it in a choke, hit one player then go for a fast uber exchange with the damage bonus or even send your roamer in after the jarate goes in.
Those above are the main ones for the current meta.
These below are ideas of what can be done or experimented with.
Demo has the quickie bomb which can destroy stickies for pushes, make space for bombs and just make pushes easier.
Pyro also has a scorch shot (I know this sounds dumb) however it destroys stickies as well and can help protect a team from bombs if the push is executed once the stickies are down. (I know this also needs a lot of experimentation as to who goes this class for this kind of scenario).
Medic has kritz which can always be a good go to option and vaccinator if the team is fast enough to work it with the bubbles.
This isn't really an unlock one but double spy is always a potential strat people can make use off.
All this brainstorming is good but making a 7cp map will just end in disaster. A major restriction on pushes right now is really closed chokes. Why would you want to push through a choke like gully to go for an uber exchange when you'll either die to spam or get forced really early into a horrible uber. Other chokes that suffer from this are reckoner, process, granary and snakewater sawmill.
Grass on snakewater allows the attackers to actually take ground and make plays so there's one advantage to that.
This is why the passive setup works so good cause the chokes are so hard to counter push that you can't make anything off just a roamer pick.
Badlands has good counterplays to this as the main choke is really open and also has an open valley which allows the attackers to make and take a lot of space.
I'm not saying all chokes need to be like this. However more maps need to offer the attackers some more room to breath when pushing from mid to second and vice versa when defenders can push mid with uber advantage.
Some solutions to these issues is to add in one more koth map which seems to be quite a popular opinion from what I read.
Personally, when Sideshow wanted gravelpit back for dreamhack, I liked it cause it will always mean teams have to push or just lose from the clock but I don't think that's a possibility. If it is, we would need 2/3 maps for a map cup to find any better contender than gravelpit.
The current maps just need to have some chokes reworked so teams can try pushing without having to worry about dying from spam instantly.
An example i'll give here is on badlands, a strat we use in Lego was to uber exchange from haunter, back out to choke, heal up six people on mid then go 6v4 on choke with both soldiers leading the charge focusing the demo so the demo cannot sticky off the choke while the team follows up. This strat only works here because off the openness of the choke. There isn't many, if any other map that allows this kind of play cause the spam you will receive will be too intense in a choke like granary choke.
TL:DR Summary.
There is enough unlocks to combat this no pushing style but teams need to actually try them and be creative with them.
The current maps are ok but the chokes can be reworked on a majority to allow for some offensive plays/strats/pushes.
An additional koth map could be good as a lot of people enjoy koth.
Teams actually need to sit down and create a few strats/ideas to play and improve. Only takes 15 minutes and can be very beneficial.
Soldier has the use of banners primarily the conch and battalions, there isn't situations where enough damage isn't done so buff banner isn't really necessary.
Sniper has jarate which doesn't take too much trouble to sync with a team. Throw it in a choke, hit one player then go for a fast uber exchange with the damage bonus or even send your roamer in after the jarate goes in.
Those above are the main ones for the current meta.
These below are ideas of what can be done or experimented with.
Demo has the quickie bomb which can destroy stickies for pushes, make space for bombs and just make pushes easier.
Pyro also has a scorch shot (I know this sounds dumb) however it destroys stickies as well and can help protect a team from bombs if the push is executed once the stickies are down. (I know this also needs a lot of experimentation as to who goes this class for this kind of scenario).
Medic has kritz which can always be a good go to option and vaccinator if the team is fast enough to work it with the bubbles.
This isn't really an unlock one but double spy is always a potential strat people can make use off.
All this brainstorming is good but making a 7cp map will just end in disaster. A major restriction on pushes right now is really closed chokes. Why would you want to push through a choke like gully to go for an uber exchange when you'll either die to spam or get forced really early into a horrible uber. Other chokes that suffer from this are reckoner, process, granary and snakewater sawmill.
Grass on snakewater allows the attackers to actually take ground and make plays so there's one advantage to that.
This is why the passive setup works so good cause the chokes are so hard to counter push that you can't make anything off just a roamer pick.
Badlands has good counterplays to this as the main choke is really open and also has an open valley which allows the attackers to make and take a lot of space.
I'm not saying all chokes need to be like this. However more maps need to offer the attackers some more room to breath when pushing from mid to second and vice versa when defenders can push mid with uber advantage.
Some solutions to these issues is to add in one more koth map which seems to be quite a popular opinion from what I read.
Personally, when Sideshow wanted gravelpit back for dreamhack, I liked it cause it will always mean teams have to push or just lose from the clock but I don't think that's a possibility. If it is, we would need 2/3 maps for a map cup to find any better contender than gravelpit.
The current maps just need to have some chokes reworked so teams can try pushing without having to worry about dying from spam instantly.
An example i'll give here is on badlands, a strat we use in Lego was to uber exchange from haunter, back out to choke, heal up six people on mid then go 6v4 on choke with both soldiers leading the charge focusing the demo so the demo cannot sticky off the choke while the team follows up. This strat only works here because off the openness of the choke. There isn't many, if any other map that allows this kind of play cause the spam you will receive will be too intense in a choke like granary choke.
TL:DR Summary.
There is enough unlocks to combat this no pushing style but teams need to actually try them and be creative with them.
The current maps are ok but the chokes can be reworked on a majority to allow for some offensive plays/strats/pushes.
An additional koth map could be good as a lot of people enjoy koth.
Teams actually need to sit down and create a few strats/ideas to play and improve. Only takes 15 minutes and can be very beneficial.
In my opinion a lot of these suggestions get crazy way too fast. Two simple changes that could be made to incentive pushing (which seems to be considered the key goal) would be:
1. After being capped a point takes less time to cap the next time (there is a limit on the reduction, maybe 50% after 3 caps or something). This makes it easier to push out of last or onto mid.
2. Respawns are faster based on cap time your team has on the point that you're trying to push.
Now I don't know how well these would work in practice and I only think one should be used, not both but I think that they are worth thinking about. They're easy changes that wouldn't need new maps or weird ramps from the heavens.
I think that they would incentive pushing and the first could lead to some very back and forth games.
In my opinion a lot of these suggestions get crazy way too fast. Two simple changes that could be made to incentive pushing (which seems to be considered the key goal) would be:
1. After being capped a point takes less time to cap the next time (there is a limit on the reduction, maybe 50% after 3 caps or something). This makes it easier to push out of last or onto mid.
2. Respawns are faster based on cap time your team has on the point that you're trying to push.
Now I don't know how well these would work in practice and I only think one should be used, not both but I think that they are worth thinking about. They're easy changes that wouldn't need new maps or weird ramps from the heavens.
I think that they would incentive pushing and the first could lead to some very back and forth games.
1. After being capped a point takes less time to cap the next time (there is a limit on the reduction, maybe 50% after 3 caps or something). This makes it easier to push out of last or onto mid.
2. Respawns are faster based on cap time your team has on the point that you're trying to push.
Now I don't know how well these would work in practice and I only think one should be used, not both but I think that they are worth thinking about. They're easy changes that wouldn't need new maps or weird ramps from the heavens.
I think that they would incentive pushing and the first could lead to some very back and forth games.
For some reason I had a (likely) very bad idea while I was either drunk or half asleep (or both idk) and failing to think about things logically, but what if after a certain time in a stalemate, random crits became enabled until either a certain number of players died or a point was capped or contested. In reality I know that there's a reason that random crits were turned off a long time ago but I figured I might as well put it out there
I do think that different map design can really help with stalemates, and obviously there have been great ideas that have been posted about designs that could require a bit of refining before testing, but I can see potential.
While I know this isn't exactly ideal either but I personally think it'd be pretty sweet to see demo sac plays become a thing again. I know it's not the smartest thing to do since as the sole defensive class in a general 6s a demo's job is to prevent the enemy team from just pushing whenever they feel like it but technically it's an option that can be explored
For some reason I had a (likely) very bad idea while I was either drunk or half asleep (or both idk) and failing to think about things logically, but what if after a certain time in a stalemate, random crits became enabled until either a certain number of players died or a point was capped or contested. In reality I know that there's a reason that random crits were turned off a long time ago but I figured I might as well put it out there
I do think that different map design can really help with stalemates, and obviously there have been great ideas that have been posted about designs that could require a bit of refining before testing, but I can see potential.
While I know this isn't exactly ideal either but I personally think it'd be pretty sweet to see demo sac plays become a thing again. I know it's not the smartest thing to do since as the sole defensive class in a general 6s a demo's job is to prevent the enemy team from just pushing whenever they feel like it but technically it's an option that can be explored
I do think that different map design can really help with stalemates, and obviously there have been great ideas that have been posted about designs that could require a bit of refining before testing, but I can see potential.
While I know this isn't exactly ideal either but I personally think it'd be pretty sweet to see demo sac plays become a thing again. I know it's not the smartest thing to do since as the sole defensive class in a general 6s a demo's job is to prevent the enemy team from just pushing whenever they feel like it but technically it's an option that can be explored
Konceptwhat if after a certain time in a stalemate, random crits became enabled until either a certain number of players died or a point was capped or contested. In reality I know that there's a reason that random crits were turned off a long time ago but I figured I might as well put it out there
random crits aren't fun to play with or against. that's why
[quote=Koncept]what if after a certain time in a stalemate, random crits became enabled until either a certain number of players died or a point was capped or contested. In reality I know that there's a reason that random crits were turned off a long time ago but I figured I might as well put it out there[/quote]
random crits aren't fun to play with or against. that's why
random crits aren't fun to play with or against. that's why
Show Content
diamond0wnerwhy do people still play this game
diamond0wnerflawed gamemode
0 people playing competitive matchmaking
200 viewers in online tourneys/matches
150 people signed up in leagues per continent
300$ prizepools
0 sponsors
0 real esports orgs
uncommitted top level players
no developer support
LOL
It's not like there are any other choices if you're looking for a team based shooter with the utmost mechanical skill and strategy. You could move to Quake CPMA for something harder, but that has no team work and TF2 is a flourishing active game by contrast. Any "popular" game you'd like to mention tends to suffer by being simple in order to appease people who don't like to try, thus resulting in becoming precisely that: "popular".
On top of that, how exactly would the game become more enjoyable by having larger price pools and more active players; my and hopefully others enjoyment of the game will and should remain regardless. The question "why do people still play this game" is superfluous and useless as it's palpable: An enjoyable game is preferred over a shitty one with a high price pool.
[spoiler][quote=diamond0wner]why do people still play this game[/quote]
[quote=diamond0wner]flawed gamemode
0 people playing competitive matchmaking
200 viewers in online tourneys/matches
150 people signed up in leagues per continent
300$ prizepools
0 sponsors
0 real esports orgs
uncommitted top level players
no developer support
LOL[/quote] [/spoiler]
It's not like there are any other choices if you're looking for a team based shooter with the utmost mechanical skill and strategy. You could move to Quake CPMA for something harder, but that has no team work and TF2 is a flourishing active game by contrast. Any "popular" game you'd like to mention tends to suffer by being simple in order to appease people who don't like to try, thus resulting in becoming precisely that: "popular".
On top of that, how exactly would the game become more enjoyable by having larger price pools and more active players; my and hopefully others enjoyment of the game will and should remain regardless. The question "why do people still play this game" is superfluous and useless as it's palpable: An enjoyable game is preferred over a shitty one with a high price pool.
[quote=diamond0wner]flawed gamemode
0 people playing competitive matchmaking
200 viewers in online tourneys/matches
150 people signed up in leagues per continent
300$ prizepools
0 sponsors
0 real esports orgs
uncommitted top level players
no developer support
LOL[/quote] [/spoiler]
It's not like there are any other choices if you're looking for a team based shooter with the utmost mechanical skill and strategy. You could move to Quake CPMA for something harder, but that has no team work and TF2 is a flourishing active game by contrast. Any "popular" game you'd like to mention tends to suffer by being simple in order to appease people who don't like to try, thus resulting in becoming precisely that: "popular".
On top of that, how exactly would the game become more enjoyable by having larger price pools and more active players; my and hopefully others enjoyment of the game will and should remain regardless. The question "why do people still play this game" is superfluous and useless as it's palpable: An enjoyable game is preferred over a shitty one with a high price pool.
MerchantKonceptwhat if after a certain time in a stalemate, random crits became enabled until either a certain number of players died or a point was capped or contested. In reality I know that there's a reason that random crits were turned off a long time ago but I figured I might as well put it out there
random crits aren't fun to play with or against. that's why
KonceptIn reality I know that there's a reason that random crits were turned off a long time ago but I figured I might as well put it out there
Tbh i think map design is probably the only worthwhile alley that should be explored since a lot of other ideas do lead to just dead ends. That being said, stalemates are going to exist in some form. It's just the nature of 5cp. Maybe making general areas of a map smaller could help with this so that when pushing a team isn't at much of a risk of throwing an ubercharge away if the enemy team is slightly lowered.
Another possible change could be lowering the medi gun's heal distance. It can either force a medic to be positioned differently in relation to his/her team so that if the enemy team is just going for an exchange, simply running away isn't the easiest thing ever. The speed buff when healing scouts might have to be reverted for this to be more effective though
[quote=Merchant][quote=Koncept]what if after a certain time in a stalemate, random crits became enabled until either a certain number of players died or a point was capped or contested. In reality I know that there's a reason that random crits were turned off a long time ago but I figured I might as well put it out there[/quote]
random crits aren't fun to play with or against. that's why[/quote]
[quote=Koncept]In reality I know that there's a reason that random crits were turned off a long time ago but I figured I might as well put it out there[/quote]
Tbh i think map design is probably the only worthwhile alley that should be explored since a lot of other ideas do lead to just dead ends. That being said, stalemates are going to exist in some form. It's just the nature of 5cp. Maybe making general areas of a map smaller could help with this so that when pushing a team isn't at much of a risk of throwing an ubercharge away if the enemy team is slightly lowered.
Another possible change could be lowering the medi gun's heal distance. It can either force a medic to be positioned differently in relation to his/her team so that if the enemy team is just going for an exchange, simply running away isn't the easiest thing ever. The speed buff when healing scouts might have to be reverted for this to be more effective though
random crits aren't fun to play with or against. that's why[/quote]
[quote=Koncept]In reality I know that there's a reason that random crits were turned off a long time ago but I figured I might as well put it out there[/quote]
Tbh i think map design is probably the only worthwhile alley that should be explored since a lot of other ideas do lead to just dead ends. That being said, stalemates are going to exist in some form. It's just the nature of 5cp. Maybe making general areas of a map smaller could help with this so that when pushing a team isn't at much of a risk of throwing an ubercharge away if the enemy team is slightly lowered.
Another possible change could be lowering the medi gun's heal distance. It can either force a medic to be positioned differently in relation to his/her team so that if the enemy team is just going for an exchange, simply running away isn't the easiest thing ever. The speed buff when healing scouts might have to be reverted for this to be more effective though
make the round timer 3 minutes when you cap a point (thats enough time to get uber, exchange ubers, and then get uber again for a second exchange)
instead of the round restarting when the timer runs out, whoever owns mid gets a round.
whoever owns mid also builds uber 10% faster
winning by capping their last point gives you two rounds
this system would make tf2 a lot more fast paced and fun to watch/play i think
make the round timer 3 minutes when you cap a point (thats enough time to get uber, exchange ubers, and then get uber again for a second exchange)
instead of the round restarting when the timer runs out, whoever owns mid gets a round.
whoever owns mid also builds uber 10% faster
winning by capping their last point gives you two rounds
this system would make tf2 a lot more fast paced and fun to watch/play i think
instead of the round restarting when the timer runs out, whoever owns mid gets a round.
whoever owns mid also builds uber 10% faster
winning by capping their last point gives you two rounds
this system would make tf2 a lot more fast paced and fun to watch/play i think
Tholemake the round timer 3 minutes when you cap a point (thats enough time to get uber, exchange ubers, and then get uber again for a second exchange)
instead of the round restarting when the timer runs out, whoever owns mid gets a round.
whoever owns mid also builds uber 10% faster
winning by capping their last point gives you two rounds
this system would make tf2 a lot more fast paced and fun to watch/play i think
So you'd just cap mid and park the bus?
[quote=Thole]make the round timer 3 minutes when you cap a point (thats enough time to get uber, exchange ubers, and then get uber again for a second exchange)
instead of the round restarting when the timer runs out, whoever owns mid gets a round.
whoever owns mid also builds uber 10% faster
winning by capping their last point gives you two rounds
this system would make tf2 a lot more fast paced and fun to watch/play i think[/quote]
So you'd just cap mid and park the bus?
instead of the round restarting when the timer runs out, whoever owns mid gets a round.
whoever owns mid also builds uber 10% faster
winning by capping their last point gives you two rounds
this system would make tf2 a lot more fast paced and fun to watch/play i think[/quote]
So you'd just cap mid and park the bus?
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