warmtic has awful optimization (i lose 100 fps by looking at the truck lol)

some common complaints i see are:

• scout being OP (viaduct style)
  
• sniper being OP (ashville? not 100%, normally worked out as a map develops from what ive seen)
  
• only one viable hold/push which makes it kinda stale on the same point the whole match

bagel is either disliked because the geometry feels weird and cramped (which it does a little imo) but also perhaps due to the fact that people played it in pugs when no-one knew what they were doing, didnt like it then, and dont want to give it another chance

sniper is super easy to shut down on ashville, those huge buildings let ppl jump u easy and u cant see a lot @gemm

also koth is a much better gamemode than 5cp bc no stalemates so good koth maps would be epic

Maybe another question I have is why people still use stairs on their maps instead of just ramps? Isn't a ramp much more consistent than stairs (for damage)?

theyre the same if the mapmaker knows what theyre doing, because all stairs usually have an invisible blockbullet on them that makes them exactly like a ramp

-frames
-sightlines (sniper)
-highground issues (too much highground for the team with the objective, so the pushing team is constantly in a severe uphill battle)
-too wide to help flank (or at least walls making the traveling time too long)

(thats not in order of the maps you listed btw these are just general things that lead to a new koth maps downfall)

sniper sightlines are probably the biggest issue, trying to hold ur med somewhere on either of those maps is awkward as hell because you either sit in a sniper sightline or sit in an area where you can constantly get bombed, atleast with viaduct theres places/props to hide behind and a good portion of easy to access highground for soldiers to get denied (plus it's a classic)

Koth_bagel disliked? I thought it was the most liked one in the new maps cup! Where did you get that feeling? The biggest complaint i heard from that map is that theres no transition zone.
Also warmfront doesnt really work as a koth map imo. The mid is too convoluted with that house building thing.

I got that feeling from a recent thread about maps as well:

Both of these comments have a good amount of upvotes.

Look who you quote though. Have these guys given the slightest amount of reasoning for their opinions? If one thinks something is "fucking awful" they should be able to explain why and you should base your map design on those 'whys'.

IMO ashville for sixes (especially in lobbies or pugs) feels weird because of the under point flanking route. Very easy/frustrating to die to someone unaccounted coming behind you when nobody in your team can be arsed to turn around.

Bagel is not too bad, but has forward hold issues :

https://i.imgur.com/5vYgCau.jpg

put combo there, lock easily 2 entrances to mid, the remaining entrance is on low ground

warmtic is overall quite cramped with tiny doors and multiple flank routes your medic is never going to go thru unharmed and looks more suited to HL.

warmfront has a weird house structure in the middle that punishes players for jumping on it (narrow walls -> you can miss them easily and get fucked + once up there you're not up enough to avoid getting fucked by scouts on the ground + no room to avoid stickies)

honestly if you want to make a koth map mge heroes will play just put a spire as the middle point. I'm actually surprised that in 10 years of TF2 nobody did it before.

i think the biggest issue with koth_bagel is that whenever it was picked in pugs, people would complain and throw rather than actually trying to learn how to play it.

idk, bagel has some pretty clear issues (foward holds, needs more geometry near point imo) but i think it's a decent map with the most potential out of all the current maps. the pendulum has definitely swung the other way with the map (it was well received after the map cup http://www.teamfortress.tv/39816/new-map-cup-data) but if I were to model my maps after some koth maps, I'd look at bagel and product. the biggest issues with these maps imo, though, are;

- sniper sightlines
- op forward holds
- maps being too wide to help flank
- frames (at least for me on bagel)

bagel is pretty nice because it nerfs scout a bit. every notable high ground position is either really deniable by the enemy demo or indoors which makes soldiers have an easier time fighting scouts.

On warmfront a sniper can sit on cliff and see the whole map. That sightline should be trimmed.

both are just "map is shit lol" without giving any reason
ah didnt know pugchamp players hated it, i used to do mixes on it and barely ever saw a team rejecting it and people usualy said they enjoyed it... also it got the most votes in the ETF2L map cup and positive feedback in the thread.
its not like the "new map = aids XD" players would give their feedback in the thread tho.

F L A T. They're flat. ~384 hu is the recommended height difference for mid and second.

I don't really know what you mean, there isn't a second point on koth? Or do you mean something different?