Let me stand on the lamp in the tube ffs.

Before you post a complaint please check that you're actually playing prolands and not badlands.

I never touched the lamps in the tube, that was VALVE (on the official cp_badlands), now please go vent your frustration on them instead.

The fact that 12 people upvoted your comment puzzles me.

B3b out

(Dropbox) Download: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xcyumi4a4qcn9xv/cp_prolands_b3b.zip?dl=0

cp_prolands_b3a -> cp_prolands_b3b

GAMEPLAY CHANGES:
- Closed shutter on left balcony (defenders perspective).
Shoutout to Josh
- Removed sticky trap and removed doorway leading from top lobby to last.
Intention of this change is to make it easier for teams to get in and out, as well as not having to worry about stickies right above the door.

GAME LOGIC:
- Changed the spawn time from -2 to 0 for the defenders of last
- Changed the spawn time from -2 to 1 for the attackers of last
These changes will hopefully make picks slightly more rewarding for both teams, as a team wipe more often will be converted to a round or capping spire.

What's you folks opinion on big vertical metal beams on last? I would like to try removing them for next version.

SCREENSHOT:

https://i.imgur.com/Qzatk2b.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSBhDCm02Uw

yeah sorry but that's you just being bad idk what else there is to say like your reaction time has to be poopoo to shoot yourself on them lmfao
also we don't play badlands_abortion in na but if we did i wouldn't want the beams removed because they block sniper sight lines and spam from main

Hi bearodactyl.
I've seen you comment and mention cp_prolands in a very negative light many times. You've mentioned it in several other tftv threads, and one time you told one of your friends to tell me that my map is an abortion in the middle of us playing a pug. I even responded to one of your comments on tftv which you conventiently didn't answer.

I am well aware that the changes I made, specifically to the hiding spots and some other minor gameplay tweaks, has upset a lot of players (I still don't know how big of a percentage these players are, which is a problem if you want to revert it). I've also had a lack of proper* arguments and cases made against some of the changes I've made.

Since you have been the most vocal opposition to my map, why do you barely ever mention why you don't like it? You refer to it as "bad", an "abortion" etc without any concrete examples of why that is your opinion. Assuming you want to play a more competitively viable version of cp_badlands, why do you never give any proper constructive feedback on what you would like to change? Why do you not make arguments against the things in cp_prolands you do not like? Why do you constantly just mention it in a bad light?

Several of the changes I made to make the gameplay more enjoyable, like giving soldiers the ability to do wall pogos without hitting their head on the roof I would consider borderline essential for any competitive map. Do you actually believe that valve's version of badlands does not have some serious flaws? Correct me if I'm wrong but I have a sneaking suspicion your opposition to the map is more about you being either conciously or subconciously opposed to changing a familiar environment. If this is not the case, why would you not post actual feedback instead of posting cranky comments everywhere?

*I don't classify appeal to tradition as a proper argument, eg. "It's always been that way".

Blocking spam from main is my biggest concern with them as they unnecessarily shield sentry guns from getting taken down, which consequently makes it ever so slightly more difficult to push last. Is the sniper sightline actually a big deal though?

I haven't gone through every post in this thread so perhaps you've changed the last in a way that this isn't a thing but for the regular cp_badlands at least that beam is incredibly important. Without it there'd be no place for medics to play in the case of a sniper except for really close to top right so main can't see you at all which results in you being a really easy target for a soldier jumping through main, or you can play inside the staircase but you can't see anything and you can get owned by pipes.

Also in my experience that sentry spot isn't even a problem anyway

yeah we need the beams and i dont think they're too much of a problem. honestly i feel like a lot of the people that dislike some of the stuff about badlands just dislike the map in general which no minor change is going to fix.

I personally haven't seen any medic use the beam as a way of not being in the sightline, but with that said it's not a big problem anyway because you have several different positional options (stairs, closer on right side, in spawndoor), and your teammates should be able to deny demomen or soldiers walking into main & snipers in toxic. (Spam, sticky trap, loose cannon, hitscan denying the jump) I would also argue that demomen very rarely are successfull in fucking over medics standing on the stairs.

Technically if you overly rely on the beam to stay hidden from snipers would you as a medic not be an easier target?
EDIT: I mean easier target for spam, if spam is the concern.

They're also handy for the pocket building uber on them because it's a nice easy wall to shoot while the med hides in spawn.

I just don't like that nearly all the hiding spots have been removed, the spawn timer and ammo changes were good but imo beyond that most stuff was unnecessary. For example, there's a little ledge on the side of spire across from pride rock that can be helpful for climbing up spire as a scout and doesn't have any negative or game breaking consequences so I see no need to remove it. I can see an argument for removing the crack on spire because it can be frustrating accidentally shooting through it but the ledge outside of the metal backing on spire seems completely harmless and can be useful in maneuvering fights on spire. I've never heard of anyone dying because of it or wishing it wasn't there (aside from a few salty mge players complaining about their opponents playing gay sitting on the edge when they expected them to drop off) so it doesn't make much sense to me why it got removed.
The same goes for the ledge on the outside of bats right across from spire, it's useful sometimes for dodging and climbing around the outer edge of bats, but for whatever reason it got removed. Right next to it to the left over gray bridge you can still stand on that ledge outside bats and accomplish essentially the same thing. Obviously these changes aren't game breaking but it is kind of annoying if you're used to being able to stand on something and try to, only to find out that it's no longer in the game for some reason.
By all means, fixing the splash bugs and unnecessary clipping on spire is a good thing, there are some really buggy gimmick spots people often use in mge to avoid splash and stuff. The same goes for properly mirroring the map, but I feel like it was unnecessary to remove the ram's head hiding spot inside of red house and the vent thing in the sky on red second. They're so uncommonly used that they hardly make a difference to most people, but I see no reason not to reward those who did take the time to learn the hiding spots, rather than removing them from the game and rendering the time they spent practicing jumping to them wasted (they're actually surprisingly hard to get to because you need to get just the right height and land on the right place).
Also, I haven't read through the entire thread in details but one thing that I find really annoying with default badlands is the traintracks on middle and these little lines on the ground on last eating splash, if this hasn't been fixed it should.

No, if you overly rely on the beam to stay hidden from snipers you would be a smart player. I can't find it now but there was a clip of 7 vs lowpander on badlands where thalash walked in top right and sniped their medic (I think it was vani at the time), who was standing out in the open on top left. Obviously it was more of a team issue in letting the sniper peek so deep, but had the medic instead used the beam to block line of sight from the sniper he would have been fine.
I agree with phantom and marxist in that the beams are definitely helpful for building and blocking line of sight from main. It's a very tall task to permanently prevent a sniper from peeking main through toxic barrels, even if your pocket or demo drop down to try to deny they can get headshot or the enemy team can rotate both soldiers to main to win the spam battle.
The double soldier spam through main is also useful for spamming down a gun top left, but iirc there are a few spots that you can position the sentry to avoid being entirely spammable from that angle, using the metal beams. The same goes for a demo spamming main, it's almost inevitable that he will eventually be able to peek and if your medic is standing on the stairs he has no visibility and it is very difficult to dodge pipe spam in such a confined area (stairs is only really useful if you know they have a sniper and you don't want to stand in spawn or by spawn behind the beams, but is obviously hugely vulnerable to demo spam). The closer beam can also be used by pyros to hide behind and block hitscan, while peeking out and airblasting intermittently (though with the airblast buff pyro class is already super strong so it doesn't really matter much anymore)

...because? You can find my reasonings behind changing them (and making lamps nonsolid) earlier in this thread, now why?

I can see your point, the problem was not that it was there, the problem was it's invisible. If enough people want me to re-add it (but I will make it visible), I will do it.

Same thing, I can re-add it and make it visible if people want it, but again a lot of players both like the change and others like the original more.

But there's no huge public outcry about it so I assumed it was appreciated.

Any mge player knows about it and everyone very much expects it

Again, I've explained my reasoning in this thread, go read it.

"Vent thing in the sky" was removed to allow players the freedom of doing a high bomb into choke with the second rocket propelling you even further. It's basically less effort to do that hiding spot bomb followed up with sync now.
As for the rams head, that spot was barely ever used, it was a bug, and it's not fun to play against.

Why should newer players be at a disadvantage for not studying which props are and are not solid, where valve FORGOT TO CLIP etc etc ?

Already fixed :)

Phantom had a concern about demomen spamming the medic from main, what I meant was that if the medic remained a stationary target behind the metal beam, surely he would be an easier spam target for the demoman.

What about the loose cannon?

What about making the stairs larger to allow for dodging?
I also considered just adding a wall similar to process (as a replacement for the beams)

https://i.imgur.com/JgLtqkE.jpg?1

For one thing if a demoman is spamming a med behind the beam he can just like hold the s key and go into spawn for a few seconds lol I've never been spammed by demomen in that position cause it's futile. And the problem with stairs apart from being confined and having no vision as bear mentioned is that since stairs are basically a ramp pipes can come in and roll down them which is hard to dodge cause gravity and you can take a little bit of damage that way. You also don't want to rework stairs to make the medic isolated from the rest of the team like a bunker or something if that's what you're suggesting cause the advantage of stairs is that you can heal your pocket while in them (by the sniper beam he has to come to you for heals) but you're losing a little bit of safety in return.

But wasn't he standing there to dodge the sniper?

You said the problem with holding on the stairs to avoid the sniper sightline is that the demo can spam you, how is the situation from the beam any different?

Oh okay, so you're talking about spam, can a demo not kill a medic behind the beam in 2 stickies?

No, I wasn't suggesting creating a bunker.

just to make sure we're on the same page when I say the beam I'm referring to the one on the far left closest to the spawn http://comp.tf/w/images/thumb/7/7e/Badlands_Last_Point.jpg/800px-Badlands_Last_Point.jpg

the medic stands behind it in a way so that the sniper can't shoot him from main or barrels. A demoman can be near main and spam pipes into stairs and you won't see them coming and even if they're called they're hard to dodge, while standing behind the beam you have plenty of time to dodge and go into spawn. With stickies you can go into spawn and someone can shoot it or blow it away it's not an issue

Edit: oh yeah sorry I totally misinterpreted what you were saying with that wall idea that's not a bunker at all my bad. But if you're going to just replace the beams with walls what reason were you trying to remove them for in the first place? That wouldn't make it easier to spam down sentries (which isn't a problem in the first place they're still possible to spam down)

don't do this. I see this as a double-edged sword because not only are you blocking spam and sightlines into last but you're also blocking spam and sightlines into main. on top of that, a wall will also make it even harder for scouts to dodge and juke around in an already pretty confined space.

It would be harder to do that yes, but the sentry wouldn't be nearly as effective due to the wall blocking it's line of sight on top right from spawn and partially down to main as well. (as well as blocking the defenders view from main)
Example of how it could look like:

I tried cp_prolands_b3b out in a scrim, and it felt a lot easier pushing last and top lobby, and it was very possible to push out of last when the enemy team wipes (or if you get some picks).

What are you guyses opinions on b3b ?

I agree. although it definitely looks aesthetically worse when you walk in, pushing was better and the map flowed better because of it. haven't really felt much change from the spawn times but didnt think it was an issue before anyway. I think lowering the roof of upper lobby -> top left/right area would be better looking if lowered a tad

B4 out

(Dropbox) Download: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9lkv5jtaayz2smq/cp_prolands_b4.zip?dl=0

cp_prolands_b3b -> cp_prolands_b4

GAMEPLAY CHANGES:
- Slightly raised some concrete in lobby.
- Re-added the 3 ledges around spire, but now they're all very visible.

Map is on serveme already.
EDIT: Found a minor glitch, wood poles under spire plank are missing on red side. Will get fixed ASAP. Will still wait for more feedback though.

There is some weird clipping on both spires that causes an invisible ledge in between the wooden pillars. I didn't check whether it was there on previous versions.
screenshots

Also the wall inside spire to make the ledge bear suggested is not the most elegant solution imo (looks a bit out of place), but now the ledge is very visible indeed

There's no clipping, it's just the blockbullets, aka the "hitbox" of spire. It's no different from the default version of spire. The thing is, I don't know how to create a new skeleton that more accurately represent the prop.

The small healthkit is also missing on red spire. It'll probably come back when you put the poles back.

B4a out

(Dropbox) Download: https://www.dropbox.com/s/20oujt9z5zmv6f9/cp_prolands_b4a.zip?dl=0

cp_prolands_b4 -> cp_prolands_b4a

Fixed two errors with b4.

We just played the map, and we couldn't cap on the BLU spire.

-_- use b3b in the meantime I'm gonna have to do this some other day

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/942809797945200958/1BBE7B8B5EEAEF5E97A41A9E33FC49842337CDA7/

I can sit inside the blue spire if I crouch on it

Are you serious? Just double checked in hammer and the prop is solid as well as having solid walls blocking you. How did you get there?

I honestly have no clue, I was just spamming ctrl jump ontop of it in pregame and I fell through, it looked like I was still standing ontop of it for other people. After that I was able to do it a few more times and others weren't
it was on an 133tick server not sure if that makes a difference

If you were still on top for other players, it is not a map issue, that much I know.