You can also use confidence intervals to calculate tighter or looser whitelist sets, I'll probably post at least summaries of that data at some point.

except for the fact that if u go watch the in game dev commentaries they also acknowledge there that certain classes are generalists and will be viable on both offence and defence.

the possible difference in balacing the game for 6v6 and 12v12 is negligible. the game should be balanced around the higher skill play anyway, the argument i hear sometimes that OP items are ok if the players are bad is retarded

I don't think this is true. Long ranged splash from things like Soldier, Demo, and Jarate are much stronger with higher player count. Larger player count lends itself to larger maps, which affect balance (Sniper becomes stronger, for instance, Teleporters are stronger while slow classes are relatively more disadvantaged compared to standard classes, Wrangled Sentries become weaker since they can be spammed from multiple angles). And player count influences spawn times, which greatly affects how conservative a team has to be when considering if they should push or not.

Multiple classes also are a huge issue. Stacking sticky traps makes walking through chokes a nightmare and Medics being able to overheal each other makes creating advantages extremely difficult. Being able to temporarily switch to like 3 Engineers to build a [Wrangled] level 3 super fast is also a factor exclusive to 12v12.

the difference in balancing the game for 6v6 and 12v12 can actually be major, for 6s players anyway. 12v12 players can be more flexible because people don't exploit broken shit to the fullest extent, but competitive players do, so when I say "balanced around pubs" I more mean "valve has looked at certain weapons/classes and said: this is good enough for pubs"

i definitely agree the game should be balanced around higher skilled play, which is what valve are slowly moving towards

i've seen all the dev commentaries before. none of what you just said is in any of them. are you referring to this

"The Demoman is the most versatile combat class capable or rapidly switching from strong offensive pushes to defensive area denial."?

because thats pretty different in intention to what you said. the word "generalists" was used by robin walker in a separate interview to describe why demo and soldier were a pain to balance, as in, they werent happy with that situation.

"Some classes are useless most of the time", as syph says, was obviously never an intention of valve if you look at how the pub game is actually played, and the unlocks they've given engineer/heavy (eg gunslinger and gru) to try and make them useful more often.

https://i.imgur.com/8OzvhkC.jpg

Robin Walker specifically mentions "generalists" and "specialists" in this interview.

https://youtu.be/Nh_ItF1wOT0?t=12m54s

Edit: Oh sorry, I guess you linked it already. To expand though, he specifically refers to the Soldier and the Demo as classes with general applicability, which harkens back to the two Hydro commentary nodes: one that states that the Soldier is a "core" combat class, and the other, which was referenced in the post above me, which describes their original intent with demoman as being a versatile class. This might be why people conflate these two ideas, as the commentary is definitely inline with generalist/specialist game design philosophy, but there's no direct correlation until this interview. I wonder how far back the term generalist/specialists was used. I believe this specific phrasing (in regards to TF2, because the term generalist/specialist exists outside of tf2) used by the community predates this interview, but I'm not entirely sure. Was Robin Walker the first to use this terminology in correlation with TF2?

I did a google search with dates, and it does seem that this interview is the first ever use of this concept + tf2. So this would definitely imply that, yes, Valve intended general applicability vs. special applicability for different classes.

So this whole discussion is a good read but it isn't really productive at all. There's evidently a large amount of people who don't like this whitelist and want one which is much stricter but posting on this thread is probably not going to do anything. The 2 main ideas seem to between only wanting unlocks which add to the game, or only wanting to ban unlocks that break it. I feel that before we decide which specific unlocks we should allow we should have a vote or something deciding on which mentally the global whitelist should be geared towards (I'm not going to create a strawpoll or anything garbage like that because evidently an admin or someone with some credibility should actual start one). Currently there's been no posts or acknowledgements from any admins talking about the fact that a lot of people aren't happy with this whitelist as we're continuing to play the etf2l whitelist cup even though we know that the 3 weapons that have been updated still are not beneficial to the game at all (and also gas passer which is just garbage). It'd be nice to hear from an admin that they aren't just ignoring a lot of the community

i was never implying that Robin Walker didn't originate the term; just that Valve didn't intend "general applicability vs. special applicability" to happen in competitive, and that it was an unintended consequence of balancing for pubs.

"generalist" is used to refer to a negative balance situation: he said "pain to balance relative to the specialist classes".

wat. this doesn't make any sense (imo)

That's not how game design works. TF2 has a pretty consistent underlying philosophy of how each class functions and is balanced (barring a few exceptions like demoknight, or medieval mode/passtime/mannpower, idk). It's going to be felt in every single game mode because that's how the game is, and even though the competitive community tinkers with it via a whitelist and class limits, it's impossible to argue that the basic fundamentals of the game are "unintentional".

Yes, the balance of Specialists and Generalists is probably a pain, because there's a fine line that Sniper, Heavy, and Spy sit where if you buff them too much, they become overpowered/annoying, but I don't think this approach is necessarily a regret that valve has. It's very good game design to give players very strong but specific tools. The specialists are like your hail marys [edit: this term isn't exactly perfect for what I'm trying to say, but I hope you understand my point], great when utilized effectively, but high risk/high reward and designed to be switched off of when it is no longer appropriate. People don't run shotguns or forcebuy, etc. in competitive CS:GO full time, but it can be very effective as a surprise play, or when used in specific situations. Heck, the very nature of Spy is that he is a surprise, so running one full-time is not an optimal play. Valve did not do this on accident, I mean, we are all only here, 10 years later, because of Valve, even if you disagree with some of their methods, as I do sometimes.

There's just this weird stigma attached to players' mentalities that each class deserves to be treated equally, and I suppose it's because the base game's rules facilitate no penalties for such risky plays, due to the varying skill levels, but the classes aren't real people: they're tools, they're game mechanics, it doesn't have to be fair. Spy, or Engie isn't going to complain that he isn't being picked very often. The player has these tools in their arsenal, and it's important understand and to know that we have these rare, risky, and high reward options (and this extends to some of the individual weapon choices as well, like Kritz, Banners, etc., and even decisions, should the Demo bomb, should the medic go for the saw, should the scout hide here?), but that they aren't supposed to be run fulltime It makes for a fun and dynamic game, that is fun to play and fun to watch.

This is why people feel that it's important that Valve adopts some sort of accommodation to this understanding, especially to help newer players. But the game is so old now, and people--casual and competitive alike--are set in their ways.

I apologize for going slightly off on a tangent.

can we unbans the crit a cola its now hot garbage also the quick fix they have basically nerfed that thing no stop for us and after the last update there is no reason to ban it anymore

The final changes for the whitelist can be found down below. Next to the tested weapons we also opted to ban the Machina.

• The Gas Passer -> Banned
  
• B.A.S.E Jumper -> Banned
  
• Bonk! Atomic Punch -> Banned
  
• Sandman -> Unbanned
  
• Machina -> Banned

http://whitelist.tf/8319

Whitelist based on the above changes.

YES

How about no

It's legit trash now if you ask from me, you still have 15hp less with it and now you also only get slowed down if you even get hit by a ball so you are still well able to attack and shoot back against the scout, instead of getting stunned completely which was the biggest problem of Sandman before.

holy fuck machina yes.

also why ban gas passer it's like really really bad was there a specific reason for it?

The ball does literally nothing and you get 1shot by rockets. It's 100% outclassed by Wrap Assassin, and if you're throwing balls from spawn and resupplying to refresh it, Huntsman, Flare Gun, Detonator, and Scorch Shot.

Also I can't fucking believe this bullshit. North American players were graciously allowed to provide feedback on five weapons out of over a hundred? Why is nothing being done when that this "global whitelist" treats everyone outside of Europe as nothing more than an afterthought, and only begrudgingly, at that?

AFAIK there is an equal number of admins from each geographic region that are invited and are present at the global whitelist meeting. Each of those admins are tasked with speaking with their player base in whatever capacity they find to be most productive, and provide feedback on the whitelist based off of those conversations. Aoshi is only speaking for ETF2L because that is his league and what he is most familiar with, but at the whitelist meeting he is just one of Europe’s representatives interacting with admins from Australia and NA, and there is absolutely no preferential treatment for ETF2L’s opinions. Aoshi just happened to be the one who agreed to represent the admins to the community with the whitelist, which is why it appears as if his voice is the most dominant.

I'd like to hear where you heard this from. What me and many other players were told was that 1 admin from NA (there is only 1 really) was pulled in to have a conversation with what was mostly Europeans who seemed like they had basically already figured out what they wanted to do. At the time I was told this, no NA team leaders were asked for opinions or even told of the meetings existence until after it already happened.

It's lame that NA got shafted out of much input into the whitelist this season because I see literally no reason for the new pyro weapons to be banned, but we agreed to just deal with it for this season and make sure it didn't happen again.

See Smitty's post. This is not true.

Nope.

I wasn't asked jack fucking shit about whitelists, nor was anyone else on my team. From what Knuckles and Nursey said, they weren't asked either.

Weeks later, we were asked to test and provide feedback on five weapons. The Base Jumper, Machina, and Bonk, which are obviously broken and need no testing, and the Gas Passer and Sandman, which are obviously worthless (apart from Gas Passer going through walls) and need no testing.

None of these are controversial at all. There were actually controversial things we could have tested or been consulted on- for instance, Cow Mangler, Natascha, Dragon's Fury, Atomizer, Buffalo Steak Sandvich, Vita-Saw, Loch-n-Load, Vaccinator, Quickiebomb, Battalion's Backup, Rainblower - but they only asked us to give feedback on things that were blatantly obvious, while making all of the difficult decisions for us long ago. This pathetic attempt at reaching out NA players honestly might be more insulting than if they ignored us completely.

Maybe this problem wasn't caused by the arrogance of ETF2L's admins, maybe tri dropped the ball, I don't really know. Regardless of who is at fault, the fact remains that European players were absolutely given preferential treatment and this is fucking unacceptable.

cool to see that the community is heard, is there some reasons why gas passer base jumper and bonk are banned ? you even forgot about thermal thruster but whatever

jetpack was unbanned in the first post. base jumper and bonk are still dumb/borked. gas passer seems weird and i'd like to see some reasoning too, not that anyone would really miss it

Bonk lets you bodyblock Ubers. It lets you overextend and get out for free. It negates Sentry guns. It lets you bodyblock explosive classes while your team shoots them. It allows you to walk through chokes and get behind, which can only be stopped by wasting disproportionately large amounts of time and ammo to juggle them, or blowing up a stickytrap, which either launches them way behind, in which case, they get what they want, or launches them backward, in which case, they lose nothing, and you are now down a stickytrap for free. You can time it so you lose invincibility as you land on a Medic or Demo's face and 2shot him. And you get it for free when you spawn for some fucking reason.

Base Jumper allows you to sit in the air forever and puke out damage from ranges where Scouts do 3, while forcing Soldiers to direct you. It forces someone to be almost useless to keep an eye on you, because if nobody is looking, you can just fall on them and sync rockets. Or they run Sniper / Pyro full time, and nobody wants that.

I doubt anyone actually tested Gas Passer since it forces you to play Pyro without a secondary for a very long time, which is miserable. It was probably banned because it goes through walls, but even then, it's 100% outclassed by Soldier banners, since the effects are a thousand times stronger, don't need to be aimed, are not countered by resupply / health kits / Pyros, and funnily enough, also go through walls.

https://youtu.be/UOP5wRiyIp4?t=5

(0:05)

i'm just kinda disapointed for the gas passer, because i actually planned to test to run to push last with it, in some close maps like badlands or gullywash, or even sync it with your soldier sac to the med and then drypush with it

whitelist looks p good

i was gonna argue about the pyro jetpack being unbanned but after reading its stats and how it has an unstated knockback increaser as a stat its actually p bad

"overpowered" as in technically direct upgrades to stock but not very useful (e.g. third degree)

WTF i wasn't asked either?!!?!? what the fuck are these idiotic admins playing at?? not that i expected more from these arrogant euros right brother?

ur sarcasm is cute but sry if us amerifats r angry that our opinions outside of b4nnys dont matter in discussion of a GLOBAL whitelist

Go read post #24. Compare what I wrote there to what the current whitelist is and you can clearly see that my opinion wasn't held in any higher regard than anyone else's.