This is the biggest thing for me personally. I understand how growing tf2 will benefit everyone in the long term, but honestly in the short term TF2PL makes me want to stop playing it because of how unfun it is. That may be selfish or whatever, but I solely play tf2 pugs for fun and playing pugs on the less fun system makes zero sense to me currently.

I personally wish this game continued on and on with the amazing and talented players, and grew bigger, but honestly I can't see a serious raise in players really no matter what at this point. Surely some new players can be brought but overall I think the scene slowly shrinks, now slowly in this case can mean anything but I'd hope to see the game keep on years still.

I prefer to keep the game the most enjoyable while it lasts, rather than lowering the enjoyability/quality of gameplay in trade for some attention and hopes for growth, whether this comes to pug sites or unlocks etc.

This is true in the sense that it won't help the game grow externally as an esport, and with Pugchamp we may lose some of the benefits of a FACEIT's interest in the game. But it is really a far greater loss to tf2 to have interest in pugs fall dramatically, so much so that situations like this

occur all too frequently. Regardless of how seriously outside sources may/may not take our game, the fact remains that the pug scene is a staple of the community and its being dead in EU made the game far closer to actually being dead than a loss of interest from any big company, which I might add we have never had up until now, ever could. So while personally I would be willing to get over the issues with FACEIT if I knew the site would continue to get better, I cannot abide the serious reduction in pug frequency that it brought.

Maybe because medic mains almost always get picked? PugChamp only offers higher amount of games for the players who either A) always add up to captain or B) always get picked by captains.

EDIT: To clarify, for me personally, the experience was I got to play more pugs and they were all higher quality.

EDIT 2: To elaborate further, it's because people get fatkidded and have to wait for the current draft + server assigning to occur before even getting a chance at getting picked again. Where it starts to suck even more is if you get fatkidded in the second draft too and there's not enough players for a third draft. To some players this leads to getting fatkidded in almost every draft. The way people circumvent this is adding to pugs way above their skill level, ruining the game for everyone. I can't begin to tell you guys how often theres a mid player being the captain in a prem-level pug. Often he doesn't even know which players are best and his team gets rolled, or his own skill level is just enough to do that.

And even if there were enough players for the third draft, sometimes the second and first draft collectively take like 20 minutes because people kill or are really slow to pick. So if you don't get picked in the first draft you have to wait 10 minutes for the 2nd draft to start, then 5 minutes for draft to finish, then 3 minutes for server to get assigned, and then 15 minutes for the last asshole to join the server and ready up. So basically in the time you could have played an entire pug, you spend waiting for your pug to start. And pug quality is rather inconsistent as well, often being rolls due to incompetent captains (not me) or players from radically different skill levels playing. So instead of playing one bad pug every hour I prefer faceit where I can play one decent pug every 45 minutes.

EDIT 3:

This is in my opinion the most valid criticism of tf2pl. I don't know how to fix this issue though, and if tf2pl want to succeed it is something they will have to adress ASAP.

How is the class I main relevant to this especially when you cant get fatkidded on faceit, I played less games on faceit because less people added and the community was divided, I barely got to play with half the people I enjoyed pugging with on pugchamp when the tf2pl pugs were going

and all this talk from other people in the thread about how it's such a great opportunity for tf2 that we're blowing

bruh

I just wanna pug, stop trying to guilt trip players because they dont wanna play on a pug system that's just straight up worse in terms of features of a system that's been alive for multiple years at this point.

EDIT: Trying to formulate the post better

Medic mains in PugChamp have been scarce, we all know that. Due to the fact medic mains who add up on medic almost always get picked, it means that you are used to actually playing in most pugs you add up to. As you rightfully pointed out, there is no way to get fatkidded on tf2pl, which sometimes leads to them getting the spot in the pug instead of you. You may miss out on the occational pugs, but the players who usually get fatkidded get to play a fair share of games. I do believe this is a more fair way for pugs to work, feel free to disagree.

Nonsense, almost nobody went to pugchamp the first 2 weeks. I think the community weren't split as much as the people who want to play for fun or with their mates didn't add up. (even though it's ez to play with mates, just add up at the same time lol)

Where did I guilt trip you into playing faceit? Please sprite

While I don't disagree that disengaging from commercial platforms has probably stunted opportunities, it's worth remembering that this isn't a core faceit project. This is built on the faceit api by TF2 people and as such is very much a hybrid partial diy effort along similar lines to so many other home brewed systems, but basing it off a larger commercial service's underlying resource provision.

It doesn't mean faceit have no interest, but it also doesn't mean they are particularly committed to our game in the same way the ESEA pug system might have been if it had been actively used for several years.

the last part wasn't directed at you,

and again, my mainclass is irrelevant, I play less pugs on faceit cos less people add after the honeymoon period and if I wanna play continuous pugs I have to re-add in about 0.3 seconds, this doesnt happen with pugchamp, nothing to do with the class I play (or other people getting fatkid) it was purely down to the amount of players wanting to pug and with pugchamp when there was a good pug going there was ALWAYS a "B-Pug" going on after it with the people that got fatkid from the first game, that never happened on faceit because the pugs were split up into 4 divs

But if you keep on insisting that my mainclass is relevant I pretty much got forced to play my mainclass on faceit because there was literally 0 other med mains added 90% of the time, why? because I couldn't add up on classes I wanted to play and nobody could get fatkid so you had pugs on faceit that were just straight up lost from the start because of 4 scout mains being added and nobody knowing how to play the other classes, forcing me to main or I end up getting shitrolled playing a fun class and people crying at me cos I didn't wanna play med for 1 game. The class I played was again completely irrelevant to the amount of pugs I got to play.

Do people not realise, that after all these years, that maybe the growth of the game isnt what's important to us anymore? I want to be able to play fun games and not have to worry about having zero medics or a player 3 divisions below the average on my team. We shouldnt be alienating the existing population just so we can get the spy main from a trade server to start playing competitive. Playing on faceit is just too much of a pain for it to be worth it, even with the hopes of 'growth' for the game.

https://i.redditmedia.com/kPzF435jaY00kum6eCol8IDZH2jdUqfoE1zU1dtL0FI.jpg?w=239&s=666b75049ececaf84e3a1af65f45db20

i mean, people quit the game daily because old game. i understand where you're coming from with this and i somewhat agree that growth isn't a top priority for tf2 like it is in other games, but if you completely disregard it to maintain an existing system without consideration for newbies your game is gonna die out much faster... newbies who really want to play competitive and are willing to live through a complicated integration process to start playing the real game (assuming we have nothing to accomodate newbies and favor growth) are gonna have a harder time learning it if all they can play in are higher-level divisions.
there's a middle ground somewhere, and personally i think mixchamp assumed that role quite properly. it's dead though...

Faceit might be inferior to Pugchamp in a few key ways, but it's significantly better than Mixchamp ever was. Outside of adding up to classes, it's basically the same thing, only with better skill indexing and a little bit of captaining to even out the rough edges. No idea why anyone would want Mixchamp back.

1- lower level than pugchamp but (in general) higher than center (good introduction to low mid open for newbies)
2- sub system
3- pre-ready
4- mumble
5- the site color is orange and i like orange

mixchamp < tf2pl < pugchamp

while I can appreciate FACEIT's attempt at a system, pugchamp's system just seems way better for the quality of pugs
just implement the pugchamp system along with FACEIT's incentivization and it's ez $

We’re aware that we have been lacking in communication and that we’ve been slow to reply to feedback, however we assure you that we’ve been closely monitoring all feedback from the community on TFTV, on streams, and in our Discord, so we know about most of the common complaints and have been discussing them internally with our staff about how to approach them.

We want to explain exactly what is happening with our platform and its limitations but also cover some positive changes that are coming, but perhaps we’ve held some of that information back for too long. Seeing how important it is to everyone here, I will make sure we start addressing the feedback promptly and try to ensure that we are being more transparent with TF2PL related things.

I also want to make clear this doesn’t have to be an issue of picking sides. People can coexist and play what they want, but also simultaneously help these projects that benefit the scene. I am aware that some players want to see TF2PL fail and will actively attempt to sabotage it because I’m spearheading it, but I would hope that would be the minority. Though I may have had conflicts with individuals before, I’ve been sure to put all of that aside when it comes to the development and management of TF2PL, and I would hope everyone else could do the same.

Such counterproductive behavior will only hurt our scene. FACEIT may be a big company, but they do care for their organizers and their games, and they do pay attention to these things. FACEIT Mikey, founder of FPL, who has been overjoyed at the prospect of fostering growth in the competitive TF2 scene, recently expressed to me his utter disappointment with what has been going on around here lately. For those of you that have given up all hope in this scene, all I’d ask is that you don’t try to harm the efforts of those that still care.

At its core, TF2PL is still a passion-driven community effort. Our team has been monitoring games, enforcing rules, coding bots, designing graphics, editing videos, offering support, etc. all towards the goal of making a better competitive TF2 scene. It has been incredibly rewarding to see that work pay off every day with new faces entering the scene, and up and coming players making a name for themselves, both things that would have been so much more difficult to pull off before. I believe these successes could be duplicated in EU as well, but it will require any established players that want to see their scene grow to work with us.

We just made a post on our main thread addressing the main topics that have been talked about, as well as some of our new adjustments, and we invite you to follow up there if you’re interested. Overall, I am glad that people care enough to have these discussions, and I hope we will all come to a harmonious understanding soon.

gang puggers we need to rise up...

I literally explained why your mainclass is relevant, and you also ignored my other points completely.

There's still a B-Pug now, just in amateur or beginner? Which means lesser skilled players don't have to wait for better drafts to end and pugs can go on continously.

yea i don't get sprite's logic at all, is he being obtuse or just that ignorant
tf2 pickup>tf2lobby>face-it>irc>>>>>>>>>>>>pugchamp>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>tf2center

tl;dr this game's age makes it difficult for newer systems to displace older, more refined ones. This appears on some level to be the same years-old clash between people who believe this game can still grow, and those who don't, and just want to have fun with it while they still can.

To be blunt: as someone who hates the stream you run and the attitude you display, I would be stunned to learn of more than one or two people who want to sabotage the Faceit system just because you had a hand in it. In truth, I strongly doubt there is a single person who feels so strongly about you in particular that they'd like to see a system designed to grow (or at the very least sustain) the game they love fall apart. How can you possibly believe that people would find more enjoyment in spiting you than in playing the game?

I've enjoyed using Faceit far more than I ever did pug or mixchamp, and it's been heartening seeing just how many pugs get played in both the amateur and beginner divisions. As a player outside the advanced division, the TF2PL system appears to have been a resounding success. But treating the problems that have plagued the advanced division as an extension of your ego is so counter to the evidence of why it is failing, and so detrimental to the advancement of this conversation, that I find it hard to believe you'd present it that way at all.

What exactly does this mean? His disappointment in the advanced divison's failure, or in the direction the discussion here has gone? The former is understandable, but in the discussions here, solutions to Faceit's problems have been as clearly laid out as they possibly can be on a public forum, and there has been a lot of praise and appreciation directed at the Faceit staff despite the dissatisfaction with the service itself. A sizable number of this game's players do not believe this game to be capable of growth, and while I disagree with that, it's an understandable position to hold. These players will not spend their time having less fun when there is a service offering more reliably entertaining games, because promises of growing the game are empty to these people.

Again, that's not a position I hold. TF2 has been hidden behind marketing and design elements that almost deliberately stifled the competitive nature of the game, and despite that, along with its age, the competitive community has pressed on. Now, as Valve tries to offer us some legitimacy, and as the community here continues to age, I think this game and its players have gained a great deal of respect within the competitive gaming community. Newer competitive titles in the market (even Overwatch) do not even come close to offering what TF2 does, and until that changes, and we all stop playing, I believe there is potential for TF2 to grow and evolve into something much bigger. But with that age comes a great deal of uncertainty. As much anyone might want to sink their life into this game, it's easy to wonder whether that time could be spent more effectively doing something else, whether that be playing a different game, or investing more time into jobs and families. So as much as you might think any of this is another insult directed at you, b4nny, it's just not. People want to have fun, and they want to have fun while they can. They don't want to wait months or years until Faceit catches up to a system that already existed, especially if they doubt whether the game will be alive when the time comes. I'm enormously grateful for everything Faceit, TF2PL and all the people involved in developing them both have done so far, and I'm hopeful that they will evolve to better suit the needs of the entire community. Good luck!

My mainclass was irrelevant to the point I was making.

also I shouldn't have to add to 3-4 different queues to just play a pug man

I really don't understand all of the doom and gloom that people are trying to push by saying FaceIt is dead and the game is dead or some shit. Faceit is a wonderful platform for new players to play and get into the game with, it does just about everything right for them, as seen by the massive numbers of players in Beginner and AM. So what I don't understand is why are people crying about like 5% of players wanting to leave because it can't support the level of gameplay they want? From a project management prospective, trying to fix the platform for the 5% of players that are in ADV and Invite pugs is fucking absurd and totally mismanaged, and the faceit team should be focused on the players that actually matter, those being the new ones in the lower divisions because that's where you see the growth and like 90% of your playerbase. Not at the top end with the IM and Invite players who hate their life for the pug because I happen to be on demo or some shit. Unless I am wrong and all that bluster about growing the game is actually just bluster and people only actually care about the top 5% and the lower levels are just a happy accident that exists because reasons. And if thats the case that's fine, its literally what all pug services have been in tf2 forever, but at least say that instead of trying to guilt trip people by saying they are killing the game or w/e, because they clearly are not and faceit is very healthy player wise.

me

Does anyone have stats or facts about how much these things actually help in the long run? (not Tino making up optimistic numbers but actual real metrics, like growth stats from ETF2L/ESEA) Or any evidence that it helps anyone other than pros (banny)?

https://i.imgur.com/3k0dv43.png

It's actually less than that, as some of the invite players are also in advanced. The na total is actually 3493(assuming all invite players are also in the advanced hub, which is probably incorrect. Also advanced players and amateur players and beginner players can be in more than one hub at once (they just can't queue) and this also lowers the actual total tally

Why do free video game players keep complaining about free things that get given to them, pugchamp, faceit, even discord to an extent.

Complaining is important. It's part of how things get fixed. Whining can be annoying.

I don’t minimize or discard the valid feedback that has been generated so far, and I definitely agree this is not the root of the issue, but it’s something I have to remain cautious of. I’m glad you’re able to set aside whatever personal grudges you may have formed in order to participate in TF2PL, but sadly not everyone is able to do the same. During rounds of collecting direct feedback, myself and other admins have found that some users expressly stated they would sabotage and boycott efforts for no reason other than because of my involvement. I’m used to dealing with these things personally, and you wouldn’t see me complain about if it ended there, but now that it affects the community effort and the people that are working with us, I feel it's worth mentioning that these things are happening alongside the other legitimate issues (which we will continue to work on - check the official thread for details on that stuff).

As for my mention of FACEIT’s disappointment, it was in response to these sorts of hostile efforts, which includes some posts on this forum as well as blatant efforts to disrupt the games that were happening: killing games in mass to annoy users, spamming advertisements, and pressuring people to leave the platform. FACEIT staff became aware of this while overseeing the platform simply by reading the hub chats and seeing the repeated killed games. Of course no one would be disappointed that discussion and feedback is being generated, but in these sorts of occurrences were far from constructive in nature. Take a moment and read these chatlog excerpts to get an idea of how this sort of behavior affects the perception of our community:
https://i.gyazo.com/897c02930f105a7e1b04eb414b3b3df4.png https://i.gyazo.com/a3a51c9ff16831d008f75f6549f739b6.png https://i.gyazo.com/218fa69495202c955a73e0849afd77b9.png

For those of you that like numbers, some quick stats for your consideration:
The number of properly registered unique users on TF2PL is 5296. We’ve had a combined average (NA+EU) of 136 games per day on the last week (April 17th to 23th). In total we’ve served 7527 completed matches.

I’m glad that discussions have been able to get back on track, and I hope we can keep it up.

I'd like to make it clear that erynn and I do not condone people advertising PugChamp or purposefully disrupting play on other competing platforms.

That being said, FACEIT and TF2PL are not uniquely victims here. We ourselves have been subject to attempts to redirect people to FACEIT in the past. In general, it happens when players have a strong preference and want to drive more people to their platform of choice. You only really have two options: moderate the chat to remove those mentions (like TF2Center does) or ignore them.

The community can be extremely harsh and expecting everyone to be civil if not positive is a bit naive. Take it from us - we've had to deal with it for over two years now.