As far as the general population goes (in EU at least) we only know for sure that this map was tested in a small cup filled with low level teams because it was never stated that any of those maps was being introduced to the real season.

Shaming people because they 'dont understand the map making progress!' or 'dont want the game to evolve!!' when they give a negative opinion on something is also quite stupid, people are less inclined to give constructive feedback on these maps when they are just forced into our league with no warning. Saying that the map makers are 'committed and hard working!' really doesnt mean anything to the population that are playing it.

yeah but the parts of the game where you were doing something was a ton of fun

playing defense and holding your uber no matter what on B and getting to blame your idiot team if you dropped was awesome

yeah but most of the negative feedback here is: durrr the map is bad but have i played it? no. have i even downloaded it? no

fucking dumb

my team leader picked his bans too fast and now i play cardinal my 2nd match

i dont even have the map downloaded

help

Some of my favourite maps are the ones that don't even get played any more. What happened to Reckoner? Logjam?

Feels like we're going to play Granary forever.

The decision to put the map into the S30 pool was a bad one by the etf2l admins for exactly those reasons. I'm not disputing that. They could've done a lot of things to approach this better.

That being said, we should be looking to keep maps rotating in the map pool and that has been a rule in etf2l for ages for a reason. I respect etf2l wanting to avoid the maps getting stale and offering a good platform for map developers to get serious testing just as Hyce said in #26. We need to find a solution to the feedback problem. If a map gets forced into your map pool and you are against the decision, you're telling me your less inclined to give feedback? Would you not want to voice your opinion even more purely because you disagree with those decisions? If Theresa May were to force legislation into effect without a vote, I'd be very fucking surprised if you'd be less vocal than if it was voted into law.

If you don't care about the work that other people are putting in to create a map with the aim of benefiting your experience playing the game, and the only feedback you provide has no basis in your own experience and opinion, then why should mapmakers be willing to give their time for a non-reciprocal relationship with the competitive community? It may not mean anything to some of the people that play the maps, but that doesn't mean it doesn't need to be said.

no

The same thing happened in NA. There was no official confomation of cardinal being in the map pool. To make matters worse, we only see what maps we're playing 48 hours before, so we barely have any time to see what map we're playing, so my first or second time on the map will be my match.

Not to mention, there looks to be susbstantial problems with sightlines, especially on mid to second. Additionally, a speedshot thrpugh valley looks super free to get in with. As such, this map looks like a nightmare for medics...

there's too many doors

someone probably the guy who made recktoner starting with H should make my map... ill go into detail why later (on phone skatimg) but its a really good idea

Not really. In EU the map was swapped out with literally no warning. No one knew that it was important to the season to test shit and offer feedback until it was too late. In NA we were told weeks ago to vote for our favorite new map, but no one bothered to do any testing anyway because of this ban system. Somehow people are now bitching anyway when they forget to ban the map. Personally, I'm looking forward to my team's Cardinal match this week, but I'm disappointed that we're basically gonna have to go in blind.

The way everyone immediately shits on new maps is straight up some autism shit: aversion to any and all change. For real, anything that deviates from the process "3 chokes, open spaces" is immediately dismissed without any testing. Even with Product, people just refuse to play it because its not the same as every other fucking map. "I don't know how to play it, therefore it's a bad map." For example, everyone gets mad that Product has strong sniper sightlines, but there are ways to deal with sniper on Product. There are places you can hold your team to spam the point without dying, there are jumps your soldier can use to get onto the sniper from all sorts of places, and you can use ubers to get deep without dying. The only excuse you have for losing just because of a sniper is that you didn't know how to play the map. Are you allowed to have an opinion about the map? Sure, of course. It's perfectly reasonable to be miffed that sniper has strength on Product, because he does. But he's not even close to invincible, and you shouldn't confuse personal opinion with how you like to play with legitimate criticism of the map. Product isn't bad because you don't know how to play against the sniper, it just means you don't like Product. There's a huge difference there.

Contrast this against criticism of Granary. You could talk about how the crates on mid block all the sightlines, so that only the soldiers on either team have any idea what's going on. You could talk about the struggle between yard and 2nd, the so-called extra capture point, and how it contributes to stalemates. You could talk about how hard it is to sac players into literally any point, and how ultimately the optimal strategy is to just stalemate and hope boredom takes the other team first. That's where criticism stops being personal and starts being useful: talking about optimal strategy. When you can say the best way to play the map is boring, dumb, or impossible to counter, that's when things really get interesting.

No one has an optimal strategy for Cardinal. No one's played it enough to develop one, let alone to try to counter one. People have just noticed it doesn't play perfectly to the rules of 5cp that have been developed for the maps we already have, and have dismissed it right away on that. If you don't want to have to learn how to play new maps, then fine. Go ahead and say that. But don't call Cardinal shitty just because you don't know how to play it yet.

the issue is that the unfamiliarity is affecting match outcomes and not that the map is legitimately bad or not >:(

I don't understand why we're even trying to add yet another 5cp map to the pool. The last seasons map pool was pretty much perfect, yet b4nny wants to add another 5cp map for some reason. Basically all I'm saying is #bringbackgpit or make a new koth map for the love of god.

We have these perfect 5cp maps like snake, gully, process, metalworks, badlands (if your team isnt awful), i love granary fuck the haters, i hate sunshine but even I understand that it's a good map, so why the FUCK are we getting another 5cp into these already playtested and known maps? ADD ANOTHER KOTH OR A/D MAP!

bring back coalplant- it's not the best koth map but it's better than granary/cardinal/sunshine

tbh i just want well not this :(

http://fakkelbrigade.eu/maps/cp_cardinal_rc1a.bsp

i will leave a more in depth view later, but cardinal has some pretty blatant problems from my perspective that need to be addressed. with that said, i think it has potential to be more enjoyable than the worse maps in the pool currently like granary or metalworks, but some of the fixes might be too drastic to realistically be changed.

also, i agree with what most people are saying. every pug i play that's map isn't process/gully/snakewater, people immediately shit on it, call it aids, etc. and then a new map rolls around with a developer looking to improve on it and has potential to be as good as those three and people do the same thing and shit all over it. you can't instantly have good maps. either be content with the current map pool or actually provide feedback so we can get better maps. i don't agree with the method of "throw this map into esea that's rarely ever been played before" but it's probably the only way for people to actually provide constructive criticism.

id rather play obscure

http://www.teamfortress.tv/47401/koth-map-concept#1

so basically i think everyone got a boner over all the slopes and shit on process and thats one big reason why ppl like it so much so i thought if we had that in a koth map where everything's very intense and chaotic that players could incorporate this kinda mechanic not just as a means of rolling out to mid faster but as a tool to be used in combat

and i think it also will allow those ppl who spend hours and hours on those jump maps where they just slowly go up a wall like retards and then when they play the game its like they never even seen it before apart from alle. this kinda gives them a fighting shot in playing vs real ppl

forgive me for advertising my genius on some shitty map but i think its a lot better and will change this stale as fuck game i think.

i want Hyce from rektoner to make it i kno its a tall task cause its based off the actual real world so the graphics might be hard to make but im sure hes talented to rise to the occasion. i kno its kinda weird the idea of playing a videogame in the real world too because it begs the question, as u transverse the real, yet virtual world: why am i not fucking a girl with tits and an ass andinstead of playign etf2l season 29 mid division 6v6 but your guess is as good as mine man idk

Over all the years I've existed, I have come to the logicial, statistics based belief that change is a mistake.
God made a mistake when he tried to change Adams rib into Eve.
Texas made a mistake by joining the Union instead of continuing to be supported by the French and then capturing all of the American continent and then destroying France.
Change to Earths orbit makes it either extremely cold or extremely hot.
The moon changes the tides near me every 6 hours and 12 minutes. Extremely uncomfortable and only gives me a short window to go surfing.
Changing speed limits create speed traps. Changing road conditions prevent me from going out on certain days to drive.
Changing chemical levels in my brain means sometimes I "don't feel so good.."

And most recently, changing the ESEA map pool reaffirms my belief. Like I said in my opening sentence, statistics and logic are on my side. Now I have my neurons change their current state so I can memorize new calls, probably forgetting something important like my fathers birthday because our brains only have limited space. Then I have to change my graphics settings because people are reporting low FPS on second.

And through all of this, my teams first match of the season is on Cardinal. I hope B4nny, Phi, and the original poster understand where I'm coming from. I will keep an open mind, for now. Perhaps I have overlooked something through my entire life is this is a catalyst that turns me into a better person.

how do i play cardinal???

Map clearly isnt finished, sure it looks fancy but it serves no purpose.
Too many sticky traps, too many useless props, too many useless doors, too many things in your sight so you cant see anything, the underpass on last has no use whatsoever besides slowing down pushouts because you have to check, the map is just a cluster right now.

I have no idea why this has been added in EU over sunshine. Im not denying the map has potential, but in its current state it's just not ready.

This is pretty much the biggest reason my team (or at least myself) doesn't wanna play this map. My team is doing pretty well as far as scrims go and our final position this season is going to be seriously affected by the losses we take. That said, I still think this map holds a lot of potential and I actually enjoyed it when playing it in the New Map Cup a while back. I absolutely do wanna see this map get more traction and develop into a standard map but I don't see my team leaving it unbanned this season simply because we have goals for this season we really wanna meet. I'd imagine the same goes for pretty much every other team

The only real other place to test this type of map is a cup and I feel like most people don't take those very seriously (myself included). Since it's going to be in the rotation this season we might aswell take advantage of it. PLEASE PROVIDE FEEDBACK. TAKE A NOTE OF THINGS YOU DISLIKE AND LET THE DEVELOPER KNOW WHAT AND WHY IT IS.

The biggest issue that I have on ESEA's end is how some teams vetoed cardinal and still got it as their map. If both teams don't want to play the map then don't force it down their throats.

I think this would alleviate a lot of peoples' frustrations with the map, and again this one is on ESEA. If the maps were known, say 4 or even 5 days before the actual match date, then a lot of teams wouldn't be opposed to learning the map. But since there's this random factor that goes into what map you're playing on a certain match date, there's simply unnecessary stress that's created for the players and team leaders.

On the other hand, doesn't it kind of encourage teams to scrim all maps except the ones they ban, encouraging greater map diversity? I don't know about everyone else, but with the old system, by the end of the week I was absolutely sick of whichever map we had to play. The new system means teams should just try to get good in general, and gives teams a day to work out their kinks if they still happen to get a map they're not good with after 3 bans.

Actually, we were just forced to play Granary despite having veto'd it. If you take too long to veto a map (less than two days before the match) a map automatically gets picked for you. You still have the option to veto, but it does literally nothing once the map is picked.

Ahh yes I remember when people shit on sunshine and metalworks, even snakewater when they first came out as maps. The classic, this map is fucking awful but not leaving any actual feedback as if there is absolutely no way to fix it at all. I'll leave the actual feedback on the original map thread.

However Phi if you're reading this, if I were you, take any feedback you can for this map. And also please for fuck sake stop listening to the idiots who can't even play process, snakewater, gullywash and all the other "good" maps, especially those who aren't saying why it's bad. It takes a good understanding of 6s to know what makes a good map and a bad map. If you don't get hate or people disagreeing with you for your work/service/etc, then you're not successful.

oh yea and it's better than badlands, except second tho

Admittedly I haven't played the map too much, and so for that reason I can't fully compare it with other "less liked" maps, but I definitely share the opinion that there are aspects of the map that seem not fully tested or just outright strange

One observation I made is the strange amount of jumps that are only possible with the winger as scout. Usually the winger can be used to make a couple of jumps not usually possible without using say the boston basher, but it appears that there are many areas, particularly on second, that benefit way too much from using the winger. You can jump from the ground areas up to the higher entrances to what I presume will soon be known as lobby, as well as some props that are quite high up and can't be accessed with a regular double jump

Again, I haven't played the map much and I know this isn't exactly the most general feedback, but it's just something I noticed. I feel like there are many places that are extremely awkward to get to as medic, and too easy to get to as scout.