To quote b4nny “I will not lose to any of these terrible teams until something changes.” We should be looking at possible different game modes and or different class limits/unlocks if we want to shake up invite. Also there is no combination of players currently in invite that will beat froyo, so yeah... that’s depressing as well.

As long as the best NA players who could beat FROYO just join it and make it even more unbeatable I don't think anyone will even come close to being a real threat to them.
Also, it's kinda hard to win against someone like b4nny who plays TF2 as his job. (and that's not an insult, I think we would all love to play our favourite games as a job, he was good enough to accomplish that)

And smzi pretty much already explained why nobody will ever beat FROYO: there's simply no reason to spend so much time into hard work to improve and beat froyotech if there' nothing on the line (ESEA#1 prize money is not worth the effort)

B4n B4nny!

I feel like people forget how close some finals have been in the past, just look back through the finals to when the new froyo was born. Some finals have been really close, even as recent as season 27, where ya it was a 2-0 in grand finals, but it was 5-4, 5-3 scoreline, one game being 58 minutes and another being 48 minutes respectively. Finals have really only been uncontested when ascent has had a newly formed roster, or they picked up new players mid season ie this season. If you recall, season 26 ascent lost to svift in lbf, where svift would go on to lose in two maps, one of those being 5-2 50 minutes. Another thing is teams haven't stuck together long enough to develop chemistry, like if they lose to froyo in finals they get a new roster. Nearly everytime that finals have been close, it's been some roster involving ascent veterans+corsa/slemnish. If you wanted to contest froyo, getting a roster of those players is a start.

There are the players capable in invite that they could contest and maybe beat froyo, even with their current roster.
Tell me a roster of corsa slemnish on scout, marmaloo roamer, paddie/sigh pocket, bdonski/campy demo, nursey med wouldn't contest froyo.

i just want froyotech to die but realistically that wont happen
i just think most top level teams that are capable of beating froyo dont want to put effort in because "lol were playing froyo we are gonna lose just meme"
i think its completely possible to beat froyotech though as long as people try hard enough

i think it's more about laziness from other teams rather than froyo actually being that good but i'm just a scum open player so im not sure

hlpugs.tf can beat froyo

https://www.strawpoll.me/16304345

not worth the effort?

we want to beat banny as much as the next person

when you guys chalk it up to lack of effort, its literally taking a shit on the ONLY players who are actually in competition with them

like if youre an outsider and youre just chalking it up as just 'lack of effort' or 'no ones really trying' then please be my guest play froyo and show me what effort we arent putting in

we literally scrim 5 nights a week for 3+ months doin map reviews and the community just chalks it up as 'not enough effort'

'build a super roster!' doing this would literally create a scarcity in teams cause people who actually don't want to play with the 'next up guy' exists

but god its so fucking annoying and demoralizing when the phrase 'they arent putting enough effort' just gets repeated so many times

ive always had a huge issue with how often roster shuffles happen in high invite. sure, there may not be any current combination of high invite players who can beat froyotech, but the longer a roster stays together and scrims together, the better they will be able to work with each other and play off of each others' advantages. shuffling a roster to all new players puts everyone back on the bottom rung and makes them start over as a team.

before this season started, when ngf was announced, i half nerd-essay half memed that there were enough really good players in the scene deserving of a grand final win if they didnt shuffle and just got on a scrim grind with a single set of 6 over long term, to which aim essentially responded "what is this open player saying sksksksksk." so if thats any indicator of where high invite mentality is nowadays

why would anyone want to pay up invite fees to coast through a season and get rolled in grand finals

why would any of us in open or IM want to improve or play better if there's no reward for us at the peak of play

I honestly don't understand why teams disband without at least half of the members quitting TF2 for good, most disband then waste a good amount of time looking for a team, then waste more time building chemistry, then more time finding scrims because other teams died, if you're gonna keep playing the game what's the point of starting from zero all the time?

You can't beat Froyo on raw individual skill glued together in less than a year, b4nny is already a master at the current competitive meta because it changes so little, combine that with a team that sticks together and roster changes with people they already had chemistry with and well, Froyo can literally do whatever they want the whole season and be unbeatable. I can't bring any answers since I'm a terrible open player but its just what I've witnessed from a spectator point of view in the past 3 years

To be fair, multiple people have suggested making invite have a draft for teams and restart (marmaduke and mason I believe). In theory this creates equal teams on paper and you have 6 people on a team who are rather unfamiliar with each other and how to actually play together. So in order to win that season 6 people would have to dedicate to building the best chemistry out of the 10 invite teams. Maybe no teams would die, not sure but I know the gap between the team's skill level would be reduced a lot.

This post isn't addressing the underlying problems, just the outcome of it. When NiP were on their 87 map streak, you think the solution was to tell get_right to leave the roster?

Any competitive game needs the young players to step up and keep the game moving, but as it stands currently, it's incredibly difficult for that to happen. When your option is literally waiting an entire day praying to get picked once or twice on PugChamp, how exactly are you supposed to improve? Not to mention that other platforms, such as FaceIt or essentials.tf, would much rather blame the community for idealistically "not caring about the game" instead of actually working to improve their shitty platforms (though essnetials.tf has started to do this). Factor in that these sites rarely have a backbone to ban toxic behavior, which is incredibly off-putting, and it's not a massive surprise to see the lack of development. It's not like players can't improve fast, look at someone like Goku who won IM in his third season, it's just that it currently is incredibly difficult because the service isn't there.

Even then, can you really blame those platforms and outlets for not providing good service? Where's the incentive for them to make their platform even half-way decent? Same for players. You think a team like MAL is playing IM instead of playing invite four seasons in a row because they're "lazy?" Get real. Why would they play invite where only a fraction of the season will be remotely competitive and their likely to get nothing out of playing it? And the reason why the skill gaps exist is because the pool of willing invite players is incredibly small; there is like four skill tiers within a nine team division, how is that funner than getting a free check and playing with your friends? That's a problem that can be solved with actual incentives and growth that goes beyond "omg you NEED to support the comp scene!"

My recommendation is that the community creates a system were young players can continually improve and enjoy the game, and there exists greater incentive to constantly practice the game (more / better tournaments, better services, more LANs, more benefits). And when people actually have hope that the TF2 scene might actually go somewhere and there's some motive behind that, maybe you'll eventually see some people actually trying and wanting to compete. Even now, look at the pool of players who still PUG and are around right now. You could easily make multiple playoff invite teams with them. The reason they aren't playing isn't because they hate the scene or whatever, it's because why would they play when there is hardly any motivation too? That shit isn't gonna happen overnight, but imo it's a much better solution than some idealistic B.S. about teams staying together and some temporary solution about dismantling the best team.

Sorry for the long triggered nerd essay, but god damn I hate this narrative that it's the players fault for all the woes of the community. It should really be a testament to how great the game is that people actually still play it considering that on paper, there should borderline be no reason for this game to be alive. You need to start from the foundation to fix the problem, not the head of it.

Option D : Become a god tier gamer, get recruited by b4nny, destroy froyo from within.

let’s just say next season’s gonna be lit

i agree completely except that part of the reason nip was on that win streak was because a lot of the top teams hadn't moved to csgo yet
good essay tho

I hate that this thread was made or that this is even being discussed

It's like you guys don't appreciate the effort put in by either Froyo or the other teams in invite. Every player on Froyo has earned their spot on the roster by putting in a shit ton of time and effort to get as good as they are and worked hard playing together to be as good as a team as they are. "OMG FROYO IS TOO GOOD ITS UNFAIR BREAK THEM UP!!!" These players all made the choice of playing together because they're a good team and you want them to split up because a couple of grand finals were shit and you didn't enjoy watching them? You people act like no one is interested in forming a team and contesting them, like no one in invite is trying at all to get better and that invite has never been competitive before.

"Just watch demos xD its easy!" Every team in invite is trying to make their roster better, scrims nightly, and discuss what they can do better all the time. b4nny just happened to come out on top and just happens to have been rewarded for his dedication to the game, which is pretty nice for him since he's trying to make a living out of this game despite the fact that there isn't a lot of interest in growing the game. Makes it hard for people to match his dedication to the game seeing as he's been around for a long time, and the only other players who can say they've been around as long are on his team.

It seems kinda fucked up to spit on Ascent's efforts because of a poor showing in the grand finals considering they were essentially a new roster formed by a mixture of teams that performed pretty well all things considered. They even proved that they were still dominantly the 2nd best team despite not featuring some star players from previous rosters. They definitely worked hard despite roster shakeups and did their best to make it and compete in the grand finals. New God Flow played out the season proving that they could still come back from a rough start to the season, finding their flow and sticking it out (a number of teams would die after that start, but they made it through) to finish the season 3rd. Both teams scrimmed nightly and tried to improve, their roster qualities just weren't good enough to contest a Froyotech team that's kept its core roster intact for the last year. Wow I can't believe two newly formed teams couldn't contest a froyo team that has had relatively the same roster since season 25.

Historically there have been teams that have challenged froyo consistently. s16, s19, s20, s21, s22, s23, s24, s25, s27 all have seen close or competitive grand finals, and the reason for Froyo pulling ahead is mainly that the opposing team just didn't match bannys commitment and effort. Not to say that they had none, just that the guy trying to make a living off a game that has no incentive to try hard in is probably gonna come out on top a lot more than the guys that are playing as their highschool/college hobby. It's actually fucked that people act like just because banny hasn't lost that people don't try or even think about beating him. I've sat through and participated in a number of conversations listening to people talk about the game for hours about trying to win and yes people actually do watch demos to try and figure out to improve, on top of scrimming, dm/mge, pugs and whatever the fuck you can think of.

TL;DR fuck you open player and fuck getawhale

I'll save invite guys don't worry

"Something changes" could also mean a new map, one where scout's effectiveness is toned down. That's what's often done in starcraft BW when a race/player gets too strong.

imagine being so good people tell you to disband

Interesting. Yeah I am just saying that we should explore some kind of changes if the community really does want too.

option A is to have others reach the level of froyotech in order to put up a challenge... as said "others" start improving to reach that point, froyotech will also climb higher. even froyo can improve further and that's what they're doing. then again so is every other player out there. it's not like they're simply not giving a damn up in invite because froyo's a thing. they're still trying. as teams 2,3,4 etc improve, team 1 also improves. everyone's committed, the one who's most committed comes out on top.

option B would absolutely work but will never happen and is 100% not the proper solution.

you’re right I guess.
the only problem I have with what you’re saying is that I don’t see anyone downplaying how much effort Invite players put into the game.

zilly to win invite POGGERS

"Teams need to stick together and work harder to beat froyo."

"Froyo needs to disband so every team can have good players!"

The first option just implies that people aren't sticking together and working hard enough. Ascent stuck together in some form for over 10 seasons, and they definitely tried hard enough to give froyo a consistent challenge. They're a great example. You can't say that no one's sticking together and trying hard when it has happened, and at the same time just be like OMG ascent just got rolled try harder this is shit to watch!!! Especially when its literally a new roster that hasn't even had the chance to stay together for more than a season. Four players on that team have never made grand finals.

Option two is just so stupid I can't even believe I'm talking about it. What's the point of a competitive community if you're going to disband the competition for being too good? As much as I'd love for b4nny and the rest of froyo to lose or go their separate ways, doing it for the sake of parity isn't making it competitive. Sure, the division might end up healthier, but what's the point of punishing people for being good at the game? Why even try to reach those peaks? That's also shitting on the effort they've put in to get to where they are.

wow you are so funny

imagine being so obsessed with beating a man who spends half his waking hours playing tf2 you make a thread to rally other virgins on stratagies to defeat him. play the game and accept what happens after.

im just sayin, b4nny lost a highlander match recently

I worded option b) terribly that’s my bad. I’m trying to say that someone follows in the footsteps of nursey in season 24(?) and joins a different team for more challenge. Not that froyo has to entirely disband to save Invite. Again that’s my bad.

I appreciate your (serious) responses though guys.

hlpugs.tf will slowly engulf tf2 and finally dethrone b4nny, just be patient...

In all seriousness, please try to have teams stick together. So many people just bail on teams as soon as the season ends. I’m a huge fan of teams playing multiple season. I’m incredibly exited for sporadic and their core of gamers sticking around and I really hope that more teams try to improve as units over season rather than individuals.