#1: is actually something interesting I haven't heard before. I'll look into what I can do. I -might- be able to snip a little bit of size out of mid overall, it might just be a pain...

#2: I think the changes to cave have helped this quite a bit. I do think there's more improvements that need to happen in logroom (right flank) - I'm just not entirely sure what they are still.

#3: I heard this from a number of people, and I have literally no clue why that happens. I think it's ok now?

The slab is actually roughly the same size as the boxes were (maybe 25% bigger?) the reason I went for the slab over the boxes was for better splash, the boxes were crap in that regard.

THE VICIOUS DOUBLE POST

I was thinking about both points #1 and #2... decided to mess with logroom a bit. Curious for opinions. The new design idea involves moving one of the doors on mid and making it a shutter (harder to see people coming, allowing them closer to the high ground), and changing the inner geometry of logroom making it easier to push further towards 2nd and actually own the flank without getting forced out.

https://i.imgur.com/upKAhkb.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/bomVU8I.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/VckZKSe.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/mEnUeNo.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/jzjCDNr.jpg

Appreciate that bit as well, I wouldn't be shocked if it is... lol.

I think we'll probably try this version and hopefully play a couple pugs or something on it to see how it feels. I'm not 100% sold on the shutter / door location on mid, but I really am liking how logroom itself is looking now.

I try to listen to all feedback that I can. I made mistakes when Logjam was in ETF2L where I tried to implement literally everything everyone said partially to please people and partially because I didn't know any better.

I think I know better (at least a bit!) now, so I will listen to what anyone has to say and try to understand where it comes from and talk through it with others before committing to the change. Hopefully you guys keep Logjam in for next season so we can see how the changes stack up.

If anyone wants to dance around on the new logroom and see how it kinda lines up in game, here's the DL: https://www.dropbox.com/s/t1du3ti3s8yzyr2/cp_logjam_rc7pre2.bsp?dl=0

Do note that this version has no clipbrushes, and the new logroom is only on the red side.

https://puu.sh/C8r98/a787cdb616.png

Minor complaint: The clipping here can make you get stuck trying to walk up the rock, its a little ambiguous and doesnt line up with the rock well.

Yeah clipping that rock has always been a pain. I'm not sure what the right solution is, if it's unclipped it feels like you should be able to get onto it easily but you really can't... I'll mess with it.

I did finally figure out what was causing the HUD issue at blue last - there were two capture areas for blue last, one at red last and one at blue last... oops. People who are better mappers than me probably have a group set up for there important game entities (control points, spawn rooms, doors, etc.) that they can turn off when they go to copy the whole map half over to make changes from one side to the other happen, but I haven't managed to do that in 5 years... lol.

Still toying with logroom. Came up with a decent idea to keep the old door position as I'm not 100% sure how the shutter will work out. Pics below. Only concern is the sightline in the last pic, but I think shrinking the big concrete pad in the corner of mid and then moving the door to the right so it's behind the log pile in log room would fix that pretty easily.

https://imgur.com/a/JoONlDn

cp_logjam_rc7pre3

Download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/cp_logjam.3835/history

Changes:
Logroom is different - adjusted the flow, sightlines, height to make it a more dynamic flank and make it more viable to push through either way.
Made the concrete blocks at the corners of mid slightly smaller to allow logroom's change.
Fixed the damn issue with blue last capping wrong.
Made last cap slightly faster.

https://i.imgur.com/I38nT1R.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/OZZFJTW.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/A8wAzmX.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/A6d7VGA.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/flbPpnH.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/5d8JL6I.jpg

Please ETF2L let us at least have a pre-season cup for this, if not just putting it straight into S32.

Pre-season cup with maps like logjam, reckoner and even metalworks will be sick

Yes! That would be rad. I'm thinking of trying one more version with a slight change to logroom, probably the last rc7pre version before rc7.

Also it's post #491, so here's a picture of my babe 491 (I helped restore this at my last job):

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4364/36850044461_ec40188053_b.jpg

cp_logjam_rc7pre4

https://tf2maps.net/downloads/cp_logjam.3835/history

Based on a bit of feedback, tweaked logroom one more time... differences from rc7pre3:
- Made the lower exit on mid a bit wider
- Changed the geometry to be more like the old with a ramp instead of the drop off in the hut on mid
- Raised the roof above the new higher part of logroom
- Replaced a bunch of trim
- Removed a hilarious roamer spot that was a glitched out roof in logroom

https://i.imgur.com/iCc86nX.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/xETzzVS.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/kuuTwYn.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/PWcrLS8.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/dSGOvBQ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/NyBRM5m.jpg

cp_logjam_rc7pre5

Last pre rc7 version.

I'm not 100% sold on changing the rocks on mid to huts, but I wanted to at least give it a shot. Hopefully some of you guys can get a PUG or something organized and let me know if it's a better change or not before rc7 official comes out.

Changes:
-raised the bridge over choke and clipped it more aggressively
-replaced the big rock on mid with a shed that is better used for high ground
-fixed a floating block of concrete at last
-Fixed a broken displacement on second by spire
-fixed some several year old z-fighting on saw room exterior.
-fixed some broken trim at 2nd that was eating splash

https://tf2maps.net/downloads/cp_logjam.3835/history

https://i.imgur.com/fiki8Xj.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/WrY0U3K.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/PdMXeSN.jpg

cp_logjam_rc7

https://tf2maps.net/downloads/cp_logjam.3835/history

Changes from rc7pre5:

https://i.imgur.com/2pRfCnk.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QaX0fjc.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/N9TriCG.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/1yrxTiH.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/wUwXeg4.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/9S9TMZY.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/zaZ2Fh7.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/9b6CjjK.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ctEpolK.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ToMNriA.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/4OVyZ2B.jpg

cp_logjam_rc8

download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/cp_logjam.3835/history

changes based on the feedback from the new (heh) map showcase:

https://i.imgur.com/0Kbp8QQ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/DyvG6JI.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/2TQ40Hu.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/W5MnYFS.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/fFKBnQM.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/SOOEIXo.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/EZprDJt.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/lpON7Zv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/KMdEmxT.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/FHUSUMh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QZwizyv.jpg

cp_logjam_rc9pre1

https://tf2maps.net/downloads/cp_logjam.3835/history

Trying a thing out on mid that I'm not sure about. Keeping the other changes.

changes:
-adjusted a sniper sightline at last from behind the point to the left route in
-made the 45 degree wall in cave closer to the inner chokepoint of cave
-looked into flattening choke out. did not like it - yes it makes it less steep, but it makes choke itself a lot less dynamic and interesting (maybe it could be good with a serious re-work but I don't think that's necessary at this point). It introduces a couple yucky sightlines towards lobby that I didn't feel like just tossing more fences up to block. As it sits, you've got a good counterplay between the height of choke, the height of the point, and the bridge and I think choke is solid for both attackers and defenders.
-removed the sheds and rocks at mid bridge, added awnings on mid
(biggest change that I'm unsure about)

screens:

choke change for those curious (hammer shots only):

https://i.imgur.com/twh0UYW.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/846HPGC.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/IbcmIgw.jpg

I miss logjam

etf2l pls

I have heard rumors of at the very least, a preseason cup...

Definitely excited to see what everyone says. We've come a veeeeeeeeery long way.

i was bored and decided to fuck around logjam offline, i'm pretty sure at least one of these rollouts is already known but hopefully it helps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E6xVO3TOAM

Thanks for making that vid Smesi, I was working on making my own going over the basic ones but those are great as well.

I typically do a double stick out of lobby on demo, though yours is less risky and I don't know if it's necessary to be -that- fast.

The roamer rollouts you had were actually super rad, I usually ended up jumping across lobby and then starting a 4 rocket jump following the path that you did but once out of lobby as sort of an inbetween on the two versions you did.

Seriously though - thanks for sharing.

To all of our wonderful ETF2L friends who have been playing Logjam tonight (and later this week, for some!) in the cup, I would absolutely love to hear your feedback! Feel free to post here or add me and let's chat!

POST 1 - This containts mostly written text about layout changes

MID:
There's a lot of random tiny clutter on the mid point area. If the area as a whole would be larger it wouldn't be as much of a problem but just reducing the clutter would probably make it a lot better. Most of the mid feels like you're either standing on highground or running in trenches and being shot down upon. This trench style of gameplay is particularly horrible for medics, as it forces them to play far back (around the health/ammo in choke) for the entire mid if they want any chance to survive. This also affects the other classes since if they drop down to the floor or get knocked down / denied they are already at a disadvantage.

The area under the point is never used on midfights because there will be a soldier and/or a scout on the hut basically removing you from the midfight. You can't dodge anything because the difference between highground is both too little (height under the bridge leaves no room to dodge spam) or too drastic (hut vs under bridge).

What the mid does fairly well compared to previous versions is that it denies several of the the big sightlines that used to be an issue.

The entrance/exit to logroom and the way it's split up also makes it sort of a part of the clutter issue. It's just a horrible area for fighting and I get the purpose it's serving: to deny sightlines into logroom, however I believe that might be possible some other way.

The way the mid is structured, it would be better for gameplay, I think, if you were able to do highbombs more consistently off of the walls that already exist. (Above the mid-exit from logroom, and above the entrance to cave). There's also an overhang that you can get caught on, which I believe shouldn't be there at all. As the mid is right now, medics play far back, and it would really add potential for agression to have a consistent way to bomb without getting too easily denied by scouts.

Potential solitions:
- Delete as many props as possible on mid to decrease clutter.

- Simplify the geometry while keeping the layout.

- Remove overhangs and stuff, make roofs a bit higher so you can high bomb off them.

- Consider raising the bridge some units higher and make the area under a bit wider as well, making that dynamic on mids more viable.

- Does the huts on mid need to have angled roof? (and if you want that, why the the ^ shape and not the / shape?

- Maybe position the geometry on mid so the gameplay feels less like boxes and trenches, mainly by making the trenches not feel like trenches (wider?)

CAVE: I think the cave area along with the wooden catwalk thing is fine honestly

LOGROOM: Mostly fine, possible layout change in post 2.

CHOKE: I'm not sure you can actually get a good rampslide from mid to second on the displacement. Probably with stickies but I can't hit it even with two rockets

POST 2 - Imgur link with album FULL OF SPECIFIC FEEDBACK/EXAMPLES:

https://imgur.com/a/8V1PKh0

POST 3: Nerd essay about my philosophy of mapmaking in late beta and release candidate

With all due respect, please take everything I said above with a grain of salt. It took a lot of time to write and I'm very well aware that even considering or trying most of that stuff will take an insane amount of time. I believe this is a GREAT map as of right now, even with all these flaws I pointed out, and could very well become a staple in NA/EU if you keep it on the same track.

I think that you at all costs should stop making big layout changes as of right now. I feel like a part of why logjam still is being developed is because you are a very caring mapmaker and individual, and you are eager to try to improve it. But I'm here to tell you that instead of changing stuff and changing it again if that doesn't work, you should instead revert it. Maybe you could even just modify things instead of doing really large changes.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of changes that have been done could very well be positive both for how it plays and how it's balanced. The reason why changing layouts in large ways should be avoided, is in my opinion, that you very often risk introducing new issues that need to be adressed. In my opinion this is part of the reason this map has sort of struggled to become liked and/or viable. (Along with the general aversion to new maps). In many ways it is functionally a different map than the late beta stages.

Generally I would consider a map moving from alpha to beta once the general layout is set and also fairly balanced. In the beta stage, there should not really be any large layout changes. Mostly small changes OR absolutely necessary layout changes. Most things should be modified instead of changed at this stage. RC should be when you got the layout absolutely nailed, and are focusing only on detailing and bug fixing. Small fixes could still be done but should be conservative. Large layout changes should not really happen unless it the map is broken right at this stage.

With these premises in mind, logjam as of right now is sort of in a late beta or early release candidate. (I know that maps with mostly dev textures and not proper detailing are hard to get tested at all, which is why I did a lot of detailing for my own map and it's still in alpha).

Honestly I can't be bothered reading through my own wall of text another time so I'll just conclude that nothing in any of these posts are meant as personal attacks/mean ignorant comments and I'm just passionate and eager to help - otherwise I would not have wasted my time making these posts believe me. Map is good and better than prolands/badlands, granary/pronary, viaduct/product, and snakewater in my opinion.

Collaide, no personal attacks taken. This is actually incredible useful information. At a certain point, you sort of get "tone deaf" to your own map - I have overlooked a fair amount of those little things just because I'm so used to them being there. I think you've given a lot of very good feedback, and I've got a good idea where to work from here. I don't think I'm going to implement everything you said, but certainly quite a lot of it.

Thank you for everything you do for the competitive community and for mappers - I sincerely appreciate it.

Taken from etf2l forums

Red side only

https://i.imgur.com/7tmXvnu.jpg

Hiding spot from the video in the previous post

https://i.imgur.com/HrKJpA5.jpg

Hiding spot on other side of rocky arch (less consistent)

https://i.imgur.com/pELKw9l.jpg

Not as secret but you can stand here and probably not be seen by teams pushing second

https://i.imgur.com/hNKSUr2.jpg

I fucking hate clipping canyon walls. There's not even anything that says you can't stand there in hammer. I guess I'll go for some wedge shaped clip brushes... thanks for pointing those out!

I think it's an interesting map with a lot of polish already, and I would not mind playing it in an actual season. I agree with everything Collaide said about mid, and I think second is the best part of the map. The sheer size of the map had me confused a bit, but that's more due to the fact that I never played on it before.
One thing I like to mention is the last point, which I consider to be the weakest part of the map. Now I've seen some of my friends say that they think it's good, but it just feels very cluttered to me. Mainly, the fact that you can push relatively unseen due to line-of-sight blockers like walls, means that when I played it the fight was either a big DM fest around the point (if ubers were equal), or the defending team running away all over the place since both spawn doors are super close to each other, and thus easily camped (if the attacking team had ad). The cramped nature of the last also means that defensive offclasses that are here to waste time (heavy, sentry) are less useful.
But I am a poor open gamer and maybe smarter options just weren't thought of.

cp_logjam_rc9 - holy streamlining, batman!

download: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/cp_logjam.3835/history

changes:

SCREENS:

https://i.imgur.com/IOptA0C.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/8HN9dCG.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/zV4S7Qy.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/VV3Jfb5.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/7aD7l2d.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/q26fTmF.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/gmoaMD3.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/WYEZmsB.jpg