1.5 sec sounds nice but last i heard that isnt possible due to how the time system is programmed aka only full numbers
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1.5 sec sounds nice but last i heard that isnt possible due to how the time system is programmed aka only full numbers
DuMmTm1.5 sec sounds nice but last i heard that isnt possible due to how the time system is programmed aka only full numbers
I just double checked and it seems to work just fine, where did you hear this?
EDIT: I was wrong! 1 or 2 sec are the only options.
[quote=DuMmTm]1.5 sec sounds nice but last i heard that isnt possible due to how the time system is programmed aka only full numbers[/quote]
I just double checked and it seems to work just fine, where did you hear this?
EDIT: I was wrong! 1 or 2 sec are the only options.
I just double checked and it seems to work just fine, where did you hear this?
EDIT: I was wrong! 1 or 2 sec are the only options.
personally id say give it a season to test the 1 second cap time, then maybe adjust it. i think part of the reason people dont like it is because we're not used to it anymore, a lot of people didnt play with the old captime
personally id say give it a season to test the 1 second cap time, then maybe adjust it. i think part of the reason people dont like it is because we're not used to it anymore, a lot of people didnt play with the old captime
CollaideDuMmTm1.5 sec sounds nice but last i heard that isnt possible due to how the time system is programmed aka only full numbersI just double checked and it seems to work just fine, where did you hear this?
twikku and drhappiness mentioned at lan, smart boys but not mapmakers so prolly just a case of someone getting something wrong and it accidently being passed on
[quote=Collaide][quote=DuMmTm]1.5 sec sounds nice but last i heard that isnt possible due to how the time system is programmed aka only full numbers[/quote]
I just double checked and it seems to work just fine, where did you hear this?[/quote]
twikku and drhappiness mentioned at lan, smart boys but not mapmakers so prolly just a case of someone getting something wrong and it accidently being passed on
I just double checked and it seems to work just fine, where did you hear this?[/quote]
twikku and drhappiness mentioned at lan, smart boys but not mapmakers so prolly just a case of someone getting something wrong and it accidently being passed on
Well at least that gives attackers an easy chance to convert a last push into a round, thereby avoiding long stalemates, and it also gives an incentive for the defending team to use the forward hold more.
Well at least that gives attackers an easy chance to convert a last push into a round, thereby avoiding long stalemates, and it also gives an incentive for the defending team to use the forward hold more.
CollaideWhat do people think about potential 1.5 second cap time? Just throwing the idea out there
please yes.
[quote=Collaide]What do people think about potential 1.5 second cap time? Just throwing the idea out there[/quote]
please yes.
please yes.
I think that there's a multitude of reasons for the problematic last point which has resulted in many people disliking the map more and more over the years, which wasn't the case before. It used to be considered a staple of how a good 5CP map should be and that's partly due to its highly dynamic design by its middle and second point. I'll give you an example because there's a tremendous difference between liking a map out of enjoyment and out of strategical play, they're not even in the same conceptual universe.
People who play scout tend to like process, one of the reasons is because you can play the rock or the containers and it allows complete access to practically all entry points which leaves no room for isolated fights and allows complete vision. You can't do that on badlands middle, and you'll actually have to think about where to stand because each distinguished place allows separate points of vision across the playground and so you have to rely on prediction and making intelligent choices. Well, if you're a scout main you might prefer the map that enables the highest impact and net effect on the game and most people aren't at the top of the divisions which means most people don't know the most optimal places to stand in all situations, and as such, you're certainly not going to prefer badlands.
I mean, in the early days up to probably around the era where a conservative playstyle started to emerge, teams always favored pushing out of last whenever possible despite the risk factors because that they knew that holding last for a good ten minutes was a risky move within itself due to the fast cap-time. You had to consider that all it took was for a scout to sneak in from bottom left and the round would be over.
So it was partially that but also the mindset of players, I mean one of the things that teams generally did was push on one-player sacks, so we've certainly become less chaotic and more organized by being conservative, but that's also an easier playstyle to play because it increases coordination by nature. And the advent of unlocks such as loose cannon has furthered the ability to stalemate, there's no doubt about that.
The compact design of badlands and it's initial fast cap-time alludes to the proposition that the point is to be hyper-focused because it's incredibly difficult to push and occupy an enclosed area of space. When the cap-time increased the point became less player dense, which has decreased its focus and oriented defending teams resources to the chokepoints. The proclivity to which people dislike the map may be contributed almost entirely to the notion that holding last is a better and far more sensible and effective move to make, which it certainly is, so they have good reasons for it.
I think that there's a multitude of reasons for the problematic last point which has resulted in many people disliking the map more and more over the years, which wasn't the case before. It used to be considered a staple of how a good 5CP map should be and that's partly due to its highly dynamic design by its middle and second point. I'll give you an example because there's a tremendous difference between liking a map out of enjoyment and out of strategical play, they're not even in the same conceptual universe.
People who play scout tend to like process, one of the reasons is because you can play the rock or the containers and it allows complete access to practically all entry points which leaves no room for isolated fights and allows complete vision. You can't do that on badlands middle, and you'll actually have to think about where to stand because each distinguished place allows separate points of vision across the playground and so you have to rely on prediction and making intelligent choices. Well, if you're a scout main you might prefer the map that enables the highest impact and net effect on the game and most people aren't at the top of the divisions which means most people don't know the most optimal places to stand in all situations, and as such, you're certainly not going to prefer badlands.
I mean, in the early days up to probably around the era where a conservative playstyle started to emerge, teams always favored pushing out of last whenever possible despite the risk factors because that they knew that holding last for a good ten minutes was a risky move within itself due to the fast cap-time. You had to consider that all it took was for a scout to sneak in from bottom left and the round would be over.
So it was partially that but also the mindset of players, I mean one of the things that teams generally did was push on one-player sacks, so we've certainly become less chaotic and more organized by being conservative, but that's also an easier playstyle to play because it increases coordination by nature. And the advent of unlocks such as loose cannon has furthered the ability to stalemate, there's no doubt about that.
The compact design of badlands and it's initial fast cap-time alludes to the proposition that the point is to be hyper-focused because it's incredibly difficult to push and occupy an enclosed area of space. When the cap-time increased the point became less player dense, which has decreased its focus and oriented defending teams resources to the chokepoints. The proclivity to which people dislike the map may be contributed almost entirely to the notion that holding last is a better and far more sensible and effective move to make, which it certainly is, so they have good reasons for it.
People who play scout tend to like process, one of the reasons is because you can play the rock or the containers and it allows complete access to practically all entry points which leaves no room for isolated fights and allows complete vision. You can't do that on badlands middle, and you'll actually have to think about where to stand because each distinguished place allows separate points of vision across the playground and so you have to rely on prediction and making intelligent choices. Well, if you're a scout main you might prefer the map that enables the highest impact and net effect on the game and most people aren't at the top of the divisions which means most people don't know the most optimal places to stand in all situations, and as such, you're certainly not going to prefer badlands.
I mean, in the early days up to probably around the era where a conservative playstyle started to emerge, teams always favored pushing out of last whenever possible despite the risk factors because that they knew that holding last for a good ten minutes was a risky move within itself due to the fast cap-time. You had to consider that all it took was for a scout to sneak in from bottom left and the round would be over.
So it was partially that but also the mindset of players, I mean one of the things that teams generally did was push on one-player sacks, so we've certainly become less chaotic and more organized by being conservative, but that's also an easier playstyle to play because it increases coordination by nature. And the advent of unlocks such as loose cannon has furthered the ability to stalemate, there's no doubt about that.
The compact design of badlands and it's initial fast cap-time alludes to the proposition that the point is to be hyper-focused because it's incredibly difficult to push and occupy an enclosed area of space. When the cap-time increased the point became less player dense, which has decreased its focus and oriented defending teams resources to the chokepoints. The proclivity to which people dislike the map may be contributed almost entirely to the notion that holding last is a better and far more sensible and effective move to make, which it certainly is, so they have good reasons for it.
RC1 out! Since I won't do any more changes here I decided I may as well patch up some bugs and make a proper release.
(Dropbox) Download: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6rjgo1wojyiuc13/cp_prolands_rc1.zip?dl=0
cp_prolands_b6 -> cp_prolands_rc1
- Set last cap time to 2 seconds.
- Adjusted the visible geometry behind the point (NO GAMEPLAY CHANGE), to better represent the blockbullets I did.
- Fixed several textures that were misalligned.
- Fixed a bug that allowed for a pixelpeak into top lobby and main through a wall on last.
- Created proper func_detail groupings on last.
Discussion on last cap time, 2nd cap time and all spawn adjusters would be very much appreciated.
EDIT:
Updated the workshop page: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1134385764
RC1 out! Since I won't do any more changes here I decided I may as well patch up some bugs and make a proper release.
(Dropbox) Download: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6rjgo1wojyiuc13/cp_prolands_rc1.zip?dl=0
cp_prolands_b6 -> cp_prolands_rc1
- Set last cap time to 2 seconds.
- Adjusted the visible geometry behind the point (NO GAMEPLAY CHANGE), to better represent the blockbullets I did.
- Fixed several textures that were misalligned.
- Fixed a bug that allowed for a pixelpeak into top lobby and main through a wall on last.
- Created proper func_detail groupings on last.
Discussion on last cap time, 2nd cap time and all spawn adjusters would be very much appreciated.
EDIT:
[b]Updated the workshop page:[/b] https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1134385764
(Dropbox) Download: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6rjgo1wojyiuc13/cp_prolands_rc1.zip?dl=0
cp_prolands_b6 -> cp_prolands_rc1
- Set last cap time to 2 seconds.
- Adjusted the visible geometry behind the point (NO GAMEPLAY CHANGE), to better represent the blockbullets I did.
- Fixed several textures that were misalligned.
- Fixed a bug that allowed for a pixelpeak into top lobby and main through a wall on last.
- Created proper func_detail groupings on last.
Discussion on last cap time, 2nd cap time and all spawn adjusters would be very much appreciated.
EDIT:
[b]Updated the workshop page:[/b] https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1134385764
You can change the values five more times but the last point will always stay problematic until the area is completely reworked
You can change the values five more times but the last point will always stay problematic until the area is completely reworked
GazYou can change the values five more times but the last point will always stay problematic until the area is completely reworked
I don't intend to update it anymore, and people wouldn't like that anyway (which is fair).
[quote=Gaz]You can change the values five more times but the last point will always stay problematic until the area is completely reworked[/quote]
I don't intend to update it anymore, and people wouldn't like that anyway (which is fair).
I don't intend to update it anymore, and people wouldn't like that anyway (which is fair).
Badlands is the only map I can think of where players can't actually pressure the point without completely committing their lives and dying. To pressure the point on badlands you need to walk into the tube where you are so easily juggled against the walls and 2 shot by a scout/soldier/demoman. Every other map has either: 2/3 directions from which you can pressure the concealed point (gullywash, snakewater) or an extremely open point where you can pressure it from any side, even above, without getting juggled or committing your life (process, sunshine, reckoner, granary_pro, metalworks).
Gullywash's last capture area is extremely similar to badlands in that it is very small, but completely different in that you can pressure the point from secret and water, and even soldiers can rocket jump in and out of the point at will. That's why gullywash is so successful and a very adored map by almost everyone. You can add an element of this to badlands by making 1 of 2 changes (and I would recommend making both): First, remove the back-side of the tube so that the point can be pressured from either side and players can move freely around, which also brings into play a large portion of the last that often goes ignored in the current meta (from my experience). Second, remove the glass above the point at the start of the tube so that soldiers can rocket jump in/out of the capture area, just like they can on gullywash.
Just a note, keep the area inside the tube where the lamp exists because I believe it adds some interesting plays for the attacking side's soldiers.
Badlands is the only map I can think of where players can't actually pressure the point without completely committing their lives and dying. To pressure the point on badlands you need to walk into the tube where you are so easily juggled against the walls and 2 shot by a scout/soldier/demoman. Every other map has either: 2/3 directions from which you can pressure the concealed point (gullywash, snakewater) or an extremely open point where you can pressure it from any side, even above, without getting juggled or committing your life (process, sunshine, reckoner, granary_pro, metalworks).
Gullywash's last capture area is extremely similar to badlands in that it is very small, but completely different in that you can pressure the point from secret and water, and even soldiers can rocket jump in and out of the point at will. That's why gullywash is so successful and a very adored map by almost everyone. You can add an element of this to badlands by making 1 of 2 changes (and I would recommend making both): First, remove the back-side of the tube so that the point can be pressured from either side and players can move freely around, which also brings into play a large portion of the last that often goes ignored in the current meta (from my experience). Second, remove the glass above the point at the start of the tube so that soldiers can rocket jump in/out of the capture area, just like they can on gullywash.
Just a note, keep the area inside the tube where the lamp exists because I believe it adds some interesting plays for the attacking side's soldiers.
Gullywash's last capture area is extremely similar to badlands in that it is very small, but completely different in that you can pressure the point from secret and water, and even soldiers can rocket jump in and out of the point at will. That's why gullywash is so successful and a very adored map by almost everyone. You can add an element of this to badlands by making 1 of 2 changes (and I would recommend making both): First, remove the back-side of the tube so that the point can be pressured from either side and players can move freely around, which also brings into play a large portion of the last that often goes ignored in the current meta (from my experience). Second, remove the glass above the point at the start of the tube so that soldiers can rocket jump in/out of the capture area, just like they can on gullywash.
Just a note, keep the area inside the tube where the lamp exists because I believe it adds some interesting plays for the attacking side's soldiers.
^^ Agree with every single point and suggestion made by riot. I've never really thought about it before but the fact that capping the point requires such commitment really does seem like a significant reason why it is so difficult to fully cap last consistently (with the 2 second cap speed) when compared to other maps.
And as riot already said, just make sure to not remove the lamp if you remove the glass. Keeping it concealed behind the metal part of the tube above the hole where the glass used to be would be ideal (as being able to see/shoot a hiding soldier or demo from range would completely negate its effectiveness)
^^ Agree with every single point and suggestion made by riot. I've never really thought about it before but the fact that capping the point requires such commitment really does seem like a significant reason why it is so difficult to fully cap last consistently (with the 2 second cap speed) when compared to other maps.
And as riot already said, just make sure to not remove the lamp if you remove the glass. Keeping it concealed behind the metal part of the tube above the hole where the glass used to be would be ideal (as being able to see/shoot a hiding soldier or demo from range would completely negate its effectiveness)
And as riot already said, just make sure to not remove the lamp if you remove the glass. Keeping it concealed behind the metal part of the tube above the hole where the glass used to be would be ideal (as being able to see/shoot a hiding soldier or demo from range would completely negate its effectiveness)
Good points above, makes it so you don't actually have to just blindly uber into a pyro and sentry and hope it works. Can actually play point in an uber if people hide in spawn if there is a way to get off the point.
1 second cap time is still a million times better than the badlands last stalemate though.
Good points above, makes it so you don't actually have to just blindly uber into a pyro and sentry and hope it works. Can actually play point in an uber if people hide in spawn if there is a way to get off the point.
1 second cap time is still a million times better than the badlands last stalemate though.
1 second cap time is still a million times better than the badlands last stalemate though.
The idea that riot suggests would most definitely make it far easier to pressure the point, but you'd certainly need a 2 second cap time in that case as sneak caps would prove too dominant otherwise. It also isn't so clear that we actually want to mimic other fairly open last points of other maps as such a solution may produce undesired effects, would be interesting to try out nevertheless.
If the entire last is to remain intact as is, however, there's no doubt that a 1 second cap time is far more beneficial in solving stalemates due to the compact nature of badlands last as originally intended.
I think however that we haven't been able to quite define the problem yet at the level of detail and as such, we can't employ good solutions. You know, one of the fundamental issues when on the offensive team seems to be the inability to move through the chokepoints, badlands last is compact and the teams are fairly close to each other so it's vital to make the offensive team able to rotate in and out. The top door frames create a long confined area that is seemingly trapping players; this forces the uber to occur at the first top door frame rather than the second one. So naturally you always lose a portion of uber, and with specialized classes, you can cause teams to waste something like the entire uber, and then you have to get out as well.
Here's an example: https://youtu.be/osITYQLKpAA?t=192
Has anyone thought of getting rid of the first door frame completely along with the wall and perhaps utilizing something like two shutter doors for each of the two door frames?
The idea that riot suggests would most definitely make it far easier to pressure the point, but you'd certainly need a 2 second cap time in that case as sneak caps would prove too dominant otherwise. It also isn't so clear that we actually want to mimic other fairly open last points of other maps as such a solution may produce undesired effects, would be interesting to try out nevertheless.
If the entire last is to remain intact as is, however, there's no doubt that a 1 second cap time is far more beneficial in solving stalemates due to the compact nature of badlands last as originally intended.
I think however that we haven't been able to quite define the problem yet at the level of detail and as such, we can't employ good solutions. You know, one of the fundamental issues when on the offensive team seems to be the inability to move through the chokepoints, badlands last is compact and the teams are fairly close to each other so it's vital to make the offensive team able to rotate in and out. The top door frames create a long confined area that is seemingly trapping players; this forces the uber to occur at the first top door frame rather than the second one. So naturally you always lose a portion of uber, and with specialized classes, you can cause teams to waste something like the entire uber, and then you have to get out as well.
Here's an example: https://youtu.be/osITYQLKpAA?t=192
Has anyone thought of getting rid of the first door frame completely along with the wall and perhaps utilizing something like two shutter doors for each of the two door frames?
If the entire last is to remain intact as is, however, there's no doubt that a 1 second cap time is far more beneficial in solving stalemates due to the compact nature of badlands last as originally intended.
I think however that we haven't been able to quite define the problem yet at the level of detail and as such, we can't employ good solutions. You know, one of the fundamental issues when on the offensive team seems to be the inability to move through the chokepoints, badlands last is compact and the teams are fairly close to each other so it's vital to make the offensive team able to rotate in and out. The top door frames create a long confined area that is seemingly trapping players; this forces the uber to occur at the first top door frame rather than the second one. So naturally you always lose a portion of uber, and with specialized classes, you can cause teams to waste something like the entire uber, and then you have to get out as well.
Here's an example: https://youtu.be/osITYQLKpAA?t=192
Has anyone thought of getting rid of the first door frame completely along with the wall and perhaps utilizing something like two shutter doors for each of the two door frames?
The issue I see with opening up the area behind the point is that sniper maybe would be a bit too strong. Imagine having a sniper far back behind the point and basically completely denying main from the attackers. Opening up the area behind the point would also force me to remove the prop you can stand on in the tube (but the spot could possibly be re-added). The issue I see with opening up the tube so soldiers can stand on the ledge similar to gullywash is that demomen would be able to spam rollers and stickies down into it. A solution to that issue would be having it a bit further up so that the demo stickies would just get stuck on the wall and not be able to damage the players capping. However... Due to the concrete junk in the ceiling that would make it harder than it needs to be to get to it. The obvious solution would be to remove that, and then a lot of detailing would need to be done etc etc etc. EDIT: Another consequence of making it quite high up would be that... the demo lamp spot would basically be useless since you would be able to spam it with rockets from main.
Those are the reasons I'm not sold on these changes being good.
The other reason is that the same nostalgia argument would be lobbed against the map again: basically its not the same map so then they don't want to play it.
I think the community should look towards new maps instead of trying to fix this mess of a map.
TL;DR I could do these changes but they might make last more unfun and a lot people would not like it anyway.
The issue I see with opening up the area behind the point is that sniper maybe would be a bit too strong. Imagine having a sniper far back behind the point and basically completely denying main from the attackers. Opening up the area behind the point would also force me to remove the prop you can stand on in the tube (but the spot could possibly be re-added). The issue I see with opening up the tube so soldiers can stand on the ledge similar to gullywash is that demomen would be able to spam rollers and stickies down into it. A solution to that issue would be having it a bit further up so that the demo stickies would just get stuck on the wall and not be able to damage the players capping. However... Due to the concrete junk in the ceiling that would make it harder than it needs to be to get to it. The obvious solution would be to remove that, and then a lot of detailing would need to be done etc etc etc. EDIT: Another consequence of making it quite high up would be that... the demo lamp spot would basically be useless since you would be able to spam it with rockets from main.
Those are the reasons I'm not sold on these changes being good.
The other reason is that the same nostalgia argument would be lobbed against the map again: basically its not the same map so then they don't want to play it.
I think the community should look towards new maps instead of trying to fix this mess of a map.
TL;DR I could do these changes but they might make last more unfun and a lot people would not like it anyway.
Those are the reasons I'm not sold on these changes being good.
The other reason is that the same nostalgia argument would be lobbed against the map again: basically its not the same map so then they don't want to play it.
I think the community should look towards new maps instead of trying to fix this mess of a map.
TL;DR I could do these changes but they might make last more unfun and a lot people would not like it anyway.
Even without opening the back, snipers can already completely deny main. This is why teams almost always rotate through top lobby before pushing into main (unless time is of the essence). The point of opening the back would be to assist the attacking team during their actual push/uber into last when having a defensive sniper on floor/behind the point would be nothing but detrimental to the defensive team (i.e. a free pick).
Regarding the point about the nuances of opening up the top of the tube, I don't know about everyone else but something how the last point is currently set out on logjam is what I had in mind:
https://i.imgur.com/dK5zVJE.jpg
But instead of the walk way it's just the circular beam we have on badlands now. I would have to test it out but the height seems pretty much perfect to keep the lamp area concealed from spammers from main. Also, even if demos can spam rollers and stickies over the top of this opening, this doesn't change anything because demos could just as well spam rollers and stickies directly on to the point like they can now (which would be a 1000 times more efficient anyways).
Regarding your nostalgia argument.. I guess that's always going to be a problem to be honest. Some people are always going to be upset that the map is being changed from its original inception but I feel that's just a vocal minority. If you're really worried about there being a negative backlash at these changes then I would suggest just opening the back first and gauging the community's reaction to the change. From what you've said, it sounds like it would require less work for yourself out of the two changes (and it alone should still make getting cap time less of a commitment for attackers)
Even without opening the back, snipers can already completely deny main. This is why teams almost always rotate through top lobby before pushing into main (unless time is of the essence). The point of opening the back would be to assist the attacking team during their actual push/uber into last when having a defensive sniper on floor/behind the point would be nothing but detrimental to the defensive team (i.e. a free pick).
Regarding the point about the nuances of opening up the top of the tube, I don't know about everyone else but something how the last point is currently set out on logjam is what I had in mind:
[img]https://i.imgur.com/dK5zVJE.jpg[/img]
But instead of the walk way it's just the circular beam we have on badlands now. I would have to test it out but the height seems pretty much perfect to keep the lamp area concealed from spammers from main. Also, even if demos can spam rollers and stickies over the top of this opening, this doesn't change anything because demos could just as well spam rollers and stickies directly on to the point like they can now (which would be a 1000 times more efficient anyways).
Regarding your nostalgia argument.. I guess that's always going to be a problem to be honest. Some people are always going to be upset that the map is being changed from its original inception but I feel that's just a vocal minority. If you're really worried about there being a negative backlash at these changes then I would suggest just opening the back first and gauging the community's reaction to the change. From what you've said, it sounds like it would require less work for yourself out of the two changes (and it alone should still make getting cap time less of a commitment for attackers)
Regarding the point about the nuances of opening up the top of the tube, I don't know about everyone else but something how the last point is currently set out on logjam is what I had in mind:
[img]https://i.imgur.com/dK5zVJE.jpg[/img]
But instead of the walk way it's just the circular beam we have on badlands now. I would have to test it out but the height seems pretty much perfect to keep the lamp area concealed from spammers from main. Also, even if demos can spam rollers and stickies over the top of this opening, this doesn't change anything because demos could just as well spam rollers and stickies directly on to the point like they can now (which would be a 1000 times more efficient anyways).
Regarding your nostalgia argument.. I guess that's always going to be a problem to be honest. Some people are always going to be upset that the map is being changed from its original inception but I feel that's just a vocal minority. If you're really worried about there being a negative backlash at these changes then I would suggest just opening the back first and gauging the community's reaction to the change. From what you've said, it sounds like it would require less work for yourself out of the two changes (and it alone should still make getting cap time less of a commitment for attackers)
Here's a "sketch" map I made of how last might look like:
Here's a "sketch" map I made of how last might look like:
[img]https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/964233394533517801/088A03862DD0F12DE9EB87C2096B558170B18967/[/img]
[img]https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/964233394533578626/7863F0C75F5DF08353CD6806FE9ABA486EC9DA0E/[/img]
[img]https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/964233394533517801/088A03862DD0F12DE9EB87C2096B558170B18967/[/img]
[img]https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/964233394533578626/7863F0C75F5DF08353CD6806FE9ABA486EC9DA0E/[/img]
treetoon Work of a god
That looks amazing! The only thing I would hope for is raising the lamp higher or maybe making the hole smaller so that the lamp isn't visible from main.
Nonetheless, hopefully this can be implemented in some future version of the map so we can test its feasibility.
[quote=treetoon] Work of a god [/quote]
That looks amazing! The only thing I would hope for is raising the lamp higher or maybe making the hole smaller so that the lamp isn't visible from main.
Nonetheless, hopefully this can be implemented in some future version of the map so we can test its feasibility.
That looks amazing! The only thing I would hope for is raising the lamp higher or maybe making the hole smaller so that the lamp isn't visible from main.
Nonetheless, hopefully this can be implemented in some future version of the map so we can test its feasibility.
CollaideDuMmTm1.5 sec sounds nice but last i heard that isnt possible due to how the time system is programmed aka only full numbersI just double checked and it seems to work just fine, where did you hear this?
EDIT: I was wrong! 1 or 2 sec are the only options.
No, you can use decimals; keep in mind that the cap time that is set corresponds to half of the real capture time; furthering the confusion you have also keep in mind that the cap time by the number of players stacking the point isn't determined linearly, but by using a harmonic number. The original 1 second capture time was actually 2, and the current 2 seconds is 4. So setting it to 1.5 seconds results in 3, which I just tested.
I believe that Gully last uses 1.9 seconds, which is 3.8, i.e it captures faster than Badlands last. Considering that Gully last is more open in practically every way, it's no bloody wonder teams are having difficulties capturing Badlands last.
Like I said earlier, the original design of its last point requires an extremely quick capture time. So we're either going to redesign it to be more open with a long capture time, or we keep the design as is with an extremely short capture time, but if we don't do anything about it then the dislike for the map will just continue to spiral out. You know, whenever I speak to inactive people who've played somewhere around 2008 - 2014, they will consistently put Badlands at the top of being either the best or one of the best maps in the game.
It seems to me to be a direct consequence of teams employing a less risky playstyle in recent years, utilizing both unlocks and off-classes to a greater extent, and the last capture time being made to be easier to defend. Despite the latter, Badlands would've still taken the biggest hit of any map, because it's undoubtedly the toughest last point to push out of, but you know, it used to just to be a challenge that teams would overcome and tackle and get better at. And I still think that holding last for 10 minutes is risky with a capture time of 1.
[quote=Collaide][quote=DuMmTm]1.5 sec sounds nice but last i heard that isnt possible due to how the time system is programmed aka only full numbers[/quote]
I just double checked and it seems to work just fine, where did you hear this?
EDIT: I was wrong! 1 or 2 sec are the only options.[/quote]
No, you can use decimals; keep in mind that the cap time that is set corresponds to half of the real capture time; furthering the confusion you have also keep in mind that the cap time by the number of players stacking the point isn't determined linearly, but by using a harmonic number. The original 1 second capture time was actually 2, and the current 2 seconds is 4. So setting it to 1.5 seconds results in 3, which I just tested.
I believe that Gully last uses 1.9 seconds, which is 3.8, i.e it captures faster than Badlands last. Considering that Gully last is more open in practically every way, it's no bloody wonder teams are having difficulties capturing Badlands last.
Like I said earlier, the original design of its last point requires an extremely quick capture time. So we're either going to redesign it to be more open with a long capture time, or we keep the design as is with an extremely short capture time, but if we don't do anything about it then the dislike for the map will just continue to spiral out. You know, whenever I speak to inactive people who've played somewhere around 2008 - 2014, they will consistently put Badlands at the top of being either the best or one of the best maps in the game.
It seems to me to be a direct consequence of teams employing a less risky playstyle in recent years, utilizing both unlocks and off-classes to a greater extent, and the last capture time being made to be easier to defend. Despite the latter, Badlands would've still taken the biggest hit of any map, because it's undoubtedly the toughest last point to push out of, but you know, it used to just to be a challenge that teams would overcome and tackle and get better at. And I still think that holding last for 10 minutes is risky with a capture time of 1.
I just double checked and it seems to work just fine, where did you hear this?
EDIT: I was wrong! 1 or 2 sec are the only options.[/quote]
No, you can use decimals; keep in mind that the cap time that is set corresponds to half of the real capture time; furthering the confusion you have also keep in mind that the cap time by the number of players stacking the point isn't determined linearly, but by using a harmonic number. The original 1 second capture time was actually 2, and the current 2 seconds is 4. So setting it to 1.5 seconds results in 3, which I just tested.
I believe that Gully last uses 1.9 seconds, which is 3.8, i.e it captures faster than Badlands last. Considering that Gully last is more open in practically every way, it's no bloody wonder teams are having difficulties capturing Badlands last.
Like I said earlier, the original design of its last point requires an extremely quick capture time. So we're either going to redesign it to be more open with a long capture time, or we keep the design as is with an extremely short capture time, but if we don't do anything about it then the dislike for the map will just continue to spiral out. You know, whenever I speak to inactive people who've played somewhere around 2008 - 2014, they will consistently put Badlands at the top of being either the best or one of the best maps in the game.
It seems to me to be a direct consequence of teams employing a less risky playstyle in recent years, utilizing both unlocks and off-classes to a greater extent, and the last capture time being made to be easier to defend. Despite the latter, Badlands would've still taken the biggest hit of any map, because it's undoubtedly the toughest last point to push out of, but you know, it used to just to be a challenge that teams would overcome and tackle and get better at. And I still think that holding last for 10 minutes is risky with a capture time of 1.
treetoon
Gully last is 3.8 seconds at x1 cap, according to the TF2 Wiki
https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Gullywash
Regardless, your point is still right
[quote=treetoon][/quote]
Gully last is 3.8 seconds at x1 cap, according to the TF2 Wiki
https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Gullywash
Regardless, your point is still right
Gully last is 3.8 seconds at x1 cap, according to the TF2 Wiki
https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Gullywash
Regardless, your point is still right
Paulsentreetoon Work of a god
That looks amazing! The only thing I would hope for is raising the lamp higher or maybe making the hole smaller so that the lamp isn't visible from main.
Nonetheless, hopefully this can be implemented in some future version of the map so we can test its feasibility.
Hey, thanks; It's pretty badly designed as I spent the last few days trying to learn how to even edit maps. The version is available as cp_prolands_b5_t4 on serveme.tf (http://fakkelbrigade.eu/maps/) if you wanna try it out, I'll be telling Arie to delete it later I guess.
This version features:
Second capture (towards last) respawn time: From 0 to 5 seconds
Top on last: Negated the chokepoints and added two shutter doors
Last capture time: 2 Seconds
Last, redesigned and opened
If you only want the point itself changed I'd have to create a new version and compile it.
[quote=Paulsen][quote=treetoon] Work of a god [/quote]
That looks amazing! The only thing I would hope for is raising the lamp higher or maybe making the hole smaller so that the lamp isn't visible from main.
Nonetheless, hopefully this can be implemented in some future version of the map so we can test its feasibility.[/quote]
Hey, thanks; It's pretty badly designed as I spent the last few days trying to learn how to even edit maps. The version is available as cp_prolands_b5_t4 on serveme.tf (http://fakkelbrigade.eu/maps/) if you wanna try it out, I'll be telling Arie to delete it later I guess.
This version features:
Second capture (towards last) respawn time: From 0 to 5 seconds
Top on last: Negated the chokepoints and added two shutter doors
Last capture time: 2 Seconds
Last, redesigned and opened
If you only want the point itself changed I'd have to create a new version and compile it.
That looks amazing! The only thing I would hope for is raising the lamp higher or maybe making the hole smaller so that the lamp isn't visible from main.
Nonetheless, hopefully this can be implemented in some future version of the map so we can test its feasibility.[/quote]
Hey, thanks; It's pretty badly designed as I spent the last few days trying to learn how to even edit maps. The version is available as cp_prolands_b5_t4 on serveme.tf (http://fakkelbrigade.eu/maps/) if you wanna try it out, I'll be telling Arie to delete it later I guess.
This version features:
Second capture (towards last) respawn time: From 0 to 5 seconds
Top on last: Negated the chokepoints and added two shutter doors
Last capture time: 2 Seconds
Last, redesigned and opened
If you only want the point itself changed I'd have to create a new version and compile it.
treetoon
This version features:
Second capture (towards last) respawn time: From 0 to 5 seconds
Top on last: Negated the chokepoints and added two shutter doors
Last capture time: 2 Seconds
Last, redesigned and opened
If you only want the point itself changed I'd have to create a new version and compile it.
Thanks so much for taking on the challenge to continue working on this map! Not sure what your first listed change is referring to exactly but personally, I think the best course of action is to just change the last point to what you have proposed in the pictures, while keeping everything else the same (referring to rc1 with the 2 second cap time). I think going one step at a time is the best approach as implementing too many changes at once won't let us judge each change independently. For all we know, changing the design of the last by itself might be the perfect solution, and adding anything else at the same time might throw out the balance again.
For the record though, I think there is some merit to reworking the top chokes eventually. I'm not a huge fan of turning the upper chokes into shutters though as it reduces the likelihood of game saving sniper plays (i.e. the sight line between last and upper lobby is now gone).
[quote=treetoon]
This version features:
Second capture (towards last) respawn time: From 0 to 5 seconds
Top on last: Negated the chokepoints and added two shutter doors
Last capture time: 2 Seconds
Last, redesigned and opened
If you only want the point itself changed I'd have to create a new version and compile it.[/quote]
Thanks so much for taking on the challenge to continue working on this map! Not sure what your first listed change is referring to exactly but personally, I think the best course of action is to just change the last point to what you have proposed in the pictures, while keeping everything else the same (referring to rc1 with the 2 second cap time). I think going one step at a time is the best approach as implementing too many changes at once won't let us judge each change independently. For all we know, changing the design of the last by itself might be the perfect solution, and adding anything else at the same time might throw out the balance again.
For the record though, I think there is some merit to reworking the top chokes eventually. I'm not a huge fan of turning the upper chokes into shutters though as it reduces the likelihood of game saving sniper plays (i.e. the sight line between last and upper lobby is now gone).
This version features:
Second capture (towards last) respawn time: From 0 to 5 seconds
Top on last: Negated the chokepoints and added two shutter doors
Last capture time: 2 Seconds
Last, redesigned and opened
If you only want the point itself changed I'd have to create a new version and compile it.[/quote]
Thanks so much for taking on the challenge to continue working on this map! Not sure what your first listed change is referring to exactly but personally, I think the best course of action is to just change the last point to what you have proposed in the pictures, while keeping everything else the same (referring to rc1 with the 2 second cap time). I think going one step at a time is the best approach as implementing too many changes at once won't let us judge each change independently. For all we know, changing the design of the last by itself might be the perfect solution, and adding anything else at the same time might throw out the balance again.
For the record though, I think there is some merit to reworking the top chokes eventually. I'm not a huge fan of turning the upper chokes into shutters though as it reduces the likelihood of game saving sniper plays (i.e. the sight line between last and upper lobby is now gone).
PaulsenThanks so much for taking on the challenge to continue working on this map! Not sure what your first listed change is referring to exactly but personally, I think the best course of action is to just change the last point to what you have proposed in the pictures, while keeping everything else the same (referring to rc1 with the 2 second cap time). I think going one step at a time is the best approach as implementing too many changes at once won't let us judge each change independently. For all we know, changing the design of the last by itself might be the perfect solution, and adding anything else at the same time might throw out the balance again.
For the record though, I think there is some merit to reworking the top chokes eventually. I'm not a huge fan of turning the upper chokes into shutters though as it reduces the likelihood of game saving sniper plays (i.e. the sight line between last and upper lobby is now gone).
The first change is referring to the respawn time, following collaide's notes it'd be:
- Changed the spawn time from 1 to 5 for the attackers of last.
I calculated this to be roughly the time needed to push out of last by denying spawners to properly contest spire, but it may be too much.
But yeah, I agree; we should definitely test one thing at a time, I just happened to build all this on the same file.
I don't know about the shutters either, I want to see what the effects of reducing the chokes at the top are; I noticed the sniper problem straight away but you could probably design around that by using other types of chokes. Plus, the entire top section is horrendously designed, it's a proof of concept I suppose. Maybe a proper mapper out there could make it look not trash.
Also, we only have b5, the rc1 .vmf file isn't available.
[quote=Paulsen]
Thanks so much for taking on the challenge to continue working on this map! Not sure what your first listed change is referring to exactly but personally, I think the best course of action is to just change the last point to what you have proposed in the pictures, while keeping everything else the same (referring to rc1 with the 2 second cap time). I think going one step at a time is the best approach as implementing too many changes at once won't let us judge each change independently. For all we know, changing the design of the last by itself might be the perfect solution, and adding anything else at the same time might throw out the balance again.
For the record though, I think there is some merit to reworking the top chokes eventually. I'm not a huge fan of turning the upper chokes into shutters though as it reduces the likelihood of game saving sniper plays (i.e. the sight line between last and upper lobby is now gone).[/quote]
The first change is referring to the respawn time, following collaide's notes it'd be:
- Changed the spawn time from 1 to 5 for the attackers of last.
I calculated this to be roughly the time needed to push out of last by denying spawners to properly contest spire, but it may be too much.
But yeah, I agree; we should definitely test one thing at a time, I just happened to build all this on the same file.
I don't know about the shutters either, I want to see what the effects of reducing the chokes at the top are; I noticed the sniper problem straight away but you could probably design around that by using other types of chokes. Plus, the entire top section is horrendously designed, it's a proof of concept I suppose. Maybe a proper mapper out there could make it look not trash.
Also, we only have b5, the rc1 .vmf file isn't available.
Thanks so much for taking on the challenge to continue working on this map! Not sure what your first listed change is referring to exactly but personally, I think the best course of action is to just change the last point to what you have proposed in the pictures, while keeping everything else the same (referring to rc1 with the 2 second cap time). I think going one step at a time is the best approach as implementing too many changes at once won't let us judge each change independently. For all we know, changing the design of the last by itself might be the perfect solution, and adding anything else at the same time might throw out the balance again.
For the record though, I think there is some merit to reworking the top chokes eventually. I'm not a huge fan of turning the upper chokes into shutters though as it reduces the likelihood of game saving sniper plays (i.e. the sight line between last and upper lobby is now gone).[/quote]
The first change is referring to the respawn time, following collaide's notes it'd be:
- Changed the spawn time from 1 to 5 for the attackers of last.
I calculated this to be roughly the time needed to push out of last by denying spawners to properly contest spire, but it may be too much.
But yeah, I agree; we should definitely test one thing at a time, I just happened to build all this on the same file.
I don't know about the shutters either, I want to see what the effects of reducing the chokes at the top are; I noticed the sniper problem straight away but you could probably design around that by using other types of chokes. Plus, the entire top section is horrendously designed, it's a proof of concept I suppose. Maybe a proper mapper out there could make it look not trash.
Also, we only have b5, the rc1 .vmf file isn't available.
treetoonAlso, we only have b5, the rc1 .vmf file isn't available.
I actually had a quick chat to Collaide about this and unfortunately he isn't intending on releasing the vmf file for rc1. He might change his mind in time but the good news is that the difference between b5 and rc1 is negligible anyways (with there being only aestethic improvements and a small bug fix I believe). So if you're seriously considering releasing a version of badlands with the modified last point, I think it'll be perfectly sufficient to just use the vmf file for b5 instead!
[quote=treetoon]Also, we only have b5, the rc1 .vmf file isn't available.[/quote]
I actually had a quick chat to Collaide about this and unfortunately he isn't intending on releasing the vmf file for rc1. He might change his mind in time but the good news is that the difference between b5 and rc1 is negligible anyways (with there being only aestethic improvements and a small bug fix I believe). So if you're seriously considering releasing a version of badlands with the modified last point, I think it'll be perfectly sufficient to just use the vmf file for b5 instead!
I actually had a quick chat to Collaide about this and unfortunately he isn't intending on releasing the vmf file for rc1. He might change his mind in time but the good news is that the difference between b5 and rc1 is negligible anyways (with there being only aestethic improvements and a small bug fix I believe). So if you're seriously considering releasing a version of badlands with the modified last point, I think it'll be perfectly sufficient to just use the vmf file for b5 instead!
NEW CONTROL POINT!
(and other stuff)
I succumbed to my desire to "improve" the map. Really could have done this a lot sooner but I'm dumb and stupid and dumb lol.
So the map is now officially split into 3 "valid" versions. If one becomes more popular or liked, I will discontinue the other versions.
rc1 = "release candidate 1", with the 2 second cap and old control point
rc2t = "release candidate 2 time", with the 1 second cap and old control point
rc2p = "release candidate 2 point", with the 2 second cap and new control point
(Dropbox) Download for both rc2 versions: LINK HERE
cp_prolands_rc1 -> cp_prolands_rc2t
- Set last cap time to 1 second.
cp_prolands_rc1 -> cp_prolands_rc2p
- Changed geometry behind point.
- Removed slanted ceiling behind point
- Removed all glass on point
- Moved the lamp in the tube further up (to prevent spamming from main)
- The rim below the glass that you could stand on is fatter
- The capture zone is adjusted to accurately be represented by the visual indicators
- Deleted the prop on point (in order to be able to open it up). A consequence is that you can no longer stand on top of it in the tube. I did not add a ledge to replace it, but it can easily be done.
SCREENSHOTS FOR RC2P: https://imgur.com/a/Oz6f22J
I have not updated the workshop as I don't know how to resolve the situation.
Also... stay tuned for a secret badlands-related project that I intend to release before the summer.
[h]NEW CONTROL POINT![/h]
[i](and other stuff)[/i]
I succumbed to my desire to "improve" the map. Really could have done this a lot sooner but I'm dumb and stupid and dumb lol.
So the map is now officially split into 3 "valid" versions. If one becomes more popular or liked, [b]I will discontinue the other versions.[/b]
rc1 = "release candidate 1", with the [b]2 second cap[/b] and [b]old control point[/b]
rc2t = "release candidate 2 time", with the [b]1 second cap[/b] and [b]old control point[/b]
rc2p = "release candidate 2 point", with the [b]2 second cap[/b] and [b]new control point[/b]
(Dropbox) Download for both rc2 versions: [url=https://www.dropbox.com/s/adduzs2sayrwfy9/cp_prolands_rc2_both.zip?dl=0]LINK HERE[/url]
[b]cp_prolands_rc1 -> cp_prolands_rc2t[/b]
- Set last cap time to 1 second.
[b]cp_prolands_rc1 -> cp_prolands_rc2p[/b]
- Changed geometry behind point.
- Removed slanted ceiling behind point
- Removed all glass on point
- Moved the lamp in the tube further up (to prevent spamming from main)
- The rim below the glass that you could stand on is fatter
- The capture zone is adjusted to accurately be represented by the visual indicators
- Deleted the prop on point (in order to be able to open it up). A consequence is that you can no longer stand on top of it in the tube. I did not add a ledge to replace it, but it can easily be done.
SCREENSHOTS FOR RC2P: https://imgur.com/a/Oz6f22J
I have not updated the workshop as I don't know how to resolve the situation.
Also... stay tuned for a secret badlands-related project that I intend to release before the summer.
[i](and other stuff)[/i]
I succumbed to my desire to "improve" the map. Really could have done this a lot sooner but I'm dumb and stupid and dumb lol.
So the map is now officially split into 3 "valid" versions. If one becomes more popular or liked, [b]I will discontinue the other versions.[/b]
rc1 = "release candidate 1", with the [b]2 second cap[/b] and [b]old control point[/b]
rc2t = "release candidate 2 time", with the [b]1 second cap[/b] and [b]old control point[/b]
rc2p = "release candidate 2 point", with the [b]2 second cap[/b] and [b]new control point[/b]
(Dropbox) Download for both rc2 versions: [url=https://www.dropbox.com/s/adduzs2sayrwfy9/cp_prolands_rc2_both.zip?dl=0]LINK HERE[/url]
[b]cp_prolands_rc1 -> cp_prolands_rc2t[/b]
- Set last cap time to 1 second.
[b]cp_prolands_rc1 -> cp_prolands_rc2p[/b]
- Changed geometry behind point.
- Removed slanted ceiling behind point
- Removed all glass on point
- Moved the lamp in the tube further up (to prevent spamming from main)
- The rim below the glass that you could stand on is fatter
- The capture zone is adjusted to accurately be represented by the visual indicators
- Deleted the prop on point (in order to be able to open it up). A consequence is that you can no longer stand on top of it in the tube. I did not add a ledge to replace it, but it can easily be done.
SCREENSHOTS FOR RC2P: https://imgur.com/a/Oz6f22J
I have not updated the workshop as I don't know how to resolve the situation.
Also... stay tuned for a secret badlands-related project that I intend to release before the summer.
Collaide LATE CHRISTMAS PRESENT
Looks amazing man! Thanks so much for going the extra mile and implementing this (especially that new ramp.. all stairs belong in the garbage). Can't wait to try it out!
[quote=Collaide] LATE CHRISTMAS PRESENT [/quote]
Looks amazing man! Thanks so much for going the extra mile and implementing this (especially that new ramp.. all stairs belong in the garbage). Can't wait to try it out!
Looks amazing man! Thanks so much for going the extra mile and implementing this (especially that new ramp.. all stairs belong in the garbage). Can't wait to try it out!
Paulsenall stairs belong in the garbage
any serious mapper use ramp or blockbullet their stairs (so they act like ramps)
[quote=Paulsen]all stairs belong in the garbage[/quote]
any serious mapper use ramp or blockbullet their stairs (so they act like ramps)
any serious mapper use ramp or blockbullet their stairs (so they act like ramps)
Can you fix it so that the map doesnt have the custom capture points on the bottom of ones hud? It carries over to other maps and only way to get rid of it is to restart your game.
Can you fix it so that the map doesnt have the custom capture points on the bottom of ones hud? It carries over to other maps and only way to get rid of it is to restart your game.
jamalCan you fix it so that the map doesnt have the custom capture points on the bottom of ones hud? It carries over to other maps and only way to get rid of it is to restart your game.
Which version?
[quote=jamal]Can you fix it so that the map doesnt have the custom capture points on the bottom of ones hud? It carries over to other maps and only way to get rid of it is to restart your game.[/quote]
Which version?
Which version?
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