I personally think the most reasonable/best option is to replace cardinal with propaganda and keep the pool the same otherwise.

keep blands please

Out of curiosity, did anyone in NA actually end up playing cardinal (scrims or officials)

very few. most motably it's mapmaker and a few in open that wanted to have fun. everyone just played gully snake process, at least in s28

I'm pretty sure lucrative told me that him and velocity would scrim cardinal sometimes but I may be thinking of the wrong team

Honestly I wouldn't mind if prolands (and maybe granary) wasn't played for one or two seasons. Just give other maps a chance, they can always be added again next season of the season after if there's no potential in the newer maps.

Even though the changes to prolands were nice, it didn't really make the map better imo. For example, it's a lot easier to get on the point if someone is behind the point. As far as I understood the map, if you are defending and there's a player behind the point during the fight, you can just ignore him for a bit because he can't do anything in that position. He had to go all the way around the point to cap, but in the newer version he can just walk on the point before you can even see him from top.

This will result in literally nothing being changed, teams will just ban prop every game and continue to play the same rotation of maps they played in previous seasons cause you’re just replacing the map no one was willing to play anyways. It seems people like propaganda more and it could have more of a a chance, but if you just swap it with cardinal it will likely result in it never being played and then you’re back to square 1.

I agree tho that cardinal without updates in the near future shouldn’t be in the rotation but the maps people end up playing will actually change if you replace granary or badlands + cardinal. Badlands and granary aren’t going to be fixed just like cardinal (prolands really doesn’t address the large issues with the map imo) so they should be phased out

Getting rid of blands/prolands sounds pretty good

remove badlands for logjam, remove cardinal for propaganda

No they won't, if the hypthesis is right that badlands and granary are disliked by everyone they will just get banned instead. Propaganda is a pretty solid map and people already seem to like it a lot. I don't see the problem with what you're saying tho, let the people decide if they want to play propaganda versus badlands/gran/other maps. The same argument can go for any new map that people won't want to play it, but never in the past has there been such widespread support for it that it seems unlikely.

Edit: in ESEA afaik we play the original badlands rather than prolands, which I agree with you didn't fix enough and I personally think did unnecessary changes in removing hiding spots and the ledge on batts which was useful to stand on and nobody ever complained about.
I was talking to botmode yesterday and he talked about some other changes to last that he suggested on the thread but didn't get implemented which I think would be interesting to test. One was changing the spawn doors to gullywash style where they are rotated 90 degrees and moved backwards, which is a change that happened on sunshine and made it harder to just sit in spawn as a medic for example. The respawn timer changes are definitely a big plus as is the extra ammo, but one big issue people talk about is the sniper sightlines from choke and how hard it makes it to push out so maybe it would be possible to block off the sightline to right batts (just an idea, could end up being bad).

Edit2: cardinal was played by 20b vs velocity (show forgot to ban it), and my team (mentality) played it vs velocity as well in playoffs. We didn't think to ban it and they picked it because they had scrimmed it/knew how to play it.

granary is still a better map than logjam but i would totally be down for -badlands +propoganda

logjam is being worked on at least tho

ive enjoyed every game ive played on logjam more than almost every game ive played on granary

to tag off this a little

collaide just updated prolands off some suggestions that treetoon/riotbz/paulsen talked about and they look really good

https://www.teamfortress.tv/post/920664/cp-prolands

also the spawn doors is like the easiest change ever and helps a ton because it makes it harder to just sit in spawn and control one of the top areas which is really stupid

making last easier to push could also lead to pushing out being naturally easier cause you could lower badlands last defense spawn times a few seconds (currently if you die on last it's a 23 second respawn) and increase the spawn times for those pushing into last (or possibly move it?)

personally I'd much rather see rc2p played and tested rather than cardinal, which has not been updated and no one knows if it will be but if it's in the same state as last season then it's not worth keeping in because it's not a fun map, if you're playing it properly it turns into a very boring stalemate/banner mess because of its size and the sight lines and that's not fun.

I would really like to see propaganda make it in though

edit: I have no idea what happened to the quote but I think I fixed it

Why waste time learning a new map when you can just ban it? Pick ban is just dumb outside of playoffs. We should have weekly maps for main season.

#bringbackgpit

#bringbackyukon

Gpit was terrible and you are a bad person for suggesting it. >:(
IDK about you but waiting in spawn building uber while the rest of your team cycles sacks or just waiting around while the other team sacks isn't at all entertaining. The whole gamemode is like one giant last push into a turtle.

Oh boy sniper to mid!
There is a reason this map got removed. Mid would need some major reworking to fix its insane sightlines.

I personally would like to see product removed as it is the only koth map, and see work on some of the maps currently in reworked on besides badlands, which should be rotated out.

Gpit was great, you were just bad at it.

I've decided to replace cardinal with propaganda for this season (I made the decision before this thread was posted if anyone cares). I was almost about to pull the trigger and drastically alter the map pool, but I want to see how propaganda plays out this season since it received the most general approval from the testers and the community. I want to see if propaganda gets banned out as cardinal did just for being a new map, or if people actually want to adopt it as a core map.

Also while I have you all here please pay your league fees before the deadline because we won't hesitate to remove IM if there aren't enough teams. Thanks

I agree with this. KOTH is a instant ban for my team for the last 2 seasons because it isn't worth putting practice into a gamemode that is fundamentally different from all the other maps.

Any way for you to fix the pick-ban system? It was a welcome addition in playoffs but in the main season it is cancer and prevents new maps from being played.

All my teams actually where great at it and we got a lot of upset wins on that map. I just thought it was dreadfully boring.

RIP the dream

<3

Gravel Pit got the same argument than Viaduct is getting now. It's the odd map out in a sea of 5CP maps. Some people love it, some people hate it, but the fact remains it's the only map of that style in the map pool. I would've liked to see Propaganda replace Viaduct for that reason.

Also if tri could release some information on the ban statistics from last season that would be pretty cool. Not saying to dump all of it, but like tidbits or something.

Nobody is going to play Propaganda because nobody is going to want to scrim propaganda in a serious fashion. Hence it will get banned every week just like Cardinal was these past 2 seasons. Why waste your time trying to scrim in a serious fashion when you know the map will get auto-banned every week. ppl just play like jerkoffs and it doesn't help either team in those scrims.

I went over my stats over the last 2 season with the pick/ban system and thru 28 games:
Process 9
Metal 6
Gully 4
Sunshine/Snake 3
Granary 2
Viaduct 1
Badlands/Cardinal 0

I don't know about you but finding out I played 33% of my matches on Process was fucking terrible

-------------------------------------------------------

There should be a tweak to the Pick/Ban system, I am not sure how hard it would be to set in place but my idea is:

You cannot ban the same map 2 weeks in a row. Every week 3 new maps must be banned.

That way, at least some of the more unpopular maps remain possibilities for the system to randomly pick.

https://imgur.com/oc6jYTz

OKAY BOYS ANYONE WITH AN INVITE PLAYER ADDED PLEASE CONTACT THEM

This is also the reason why I think the Pick/Ban system doesn't really work with the 'map testing during a season'. People are just going to ban it, thus it's not getting played and tested and the map maker doesn't get enough feedback as with the old system.