I'll go if I can find a ride coming through Virginia
RGB LAN 4 + TooManyGames
posted in
LAN Discussion
Jaamie_cu@
Jamie at a LAN will be fuckin epic
POGGERS
[quote=Jaamie_]cu@[/quote]
Jamie at a LAN will be fuckin epic
POGGERS
Jamie at a LAN will be fuckin epic
POGGERS
Putting what I posted in the rgb discord here as well, but I'm not really happy with this announcement.
It really feels like I and others like me who just want to go to an event to play games on lan and enjoy time with internet friends are getting pushed out from this event. Even more expensive tickets, no easily accessible hotel (have to drive/uber to the event now), and what looks to be an even noisier environment since there isn't a dedicated hall, is a huge disappointment. It is great that you are able to collaborate with a bigger event, but for someone who does not care about going to panels or buying merchandise, to have to pay more money and deal with worse surrounding circumstances does not feel like an upgraded experience.
The more frustrating part is feeling like we are second-class here since hotels are already full and prices are going up. A more timely announcement so that we could fairly compete for close hotel rooms, or a deal with a further hotel that is a good discount, would help feeling alienated here. A discounted ticket price (that matches closely with what the last rgb was) (done through a code shared here, or through the old website) would also be a great way to get those that might not necessarily care for the new "extras" still excited for the partnership.
Putting what I posted in the rgb discord here as well, but I'm not really happy with this announcement.
It really feels like I and others like me who just want to go to an event to play games on lan and enjoy time with internet friends are getting pushed out from this event. Even more expensive tickets, no easily accessible hotel (have to drive/uber to the event now), and what looks to be an even noisier environment since there isn't a dedicated hall, is a huge disappointment. It is great that you are able to collaborate with a bigger event, but for someone who does not care about going to panels or buying merchandise, to have to pay more money and deal with worse surrounding circumstances does not feel like an upgraded experience.
The more frustrating part is feeling like we are second-class here since hotels are already full and prices are going up. A more timely announcement so that we could fairly compete for close hotel rooms, or a deal with a further hotel that is a good discount, would help feeling alienated here. A discounted ticket price (that matches closely with what the last rgb was) (done through a code shared here, or through the old website) would also be a great way to get those that might not necessarily care for the new "extras" still excited for the partnership.
It really feels like I and others like me who just want to go to an event to play games on lan and enjoy time with internet friends are getting pushed out from this event. Even more expensive tickets, no easily accessible hotel (have to drive/uber to the event now), and what looks to be an even noisier environment since there isn't a dedicated hall, is a huge disappointment. It is great that you are able to collaborate with a bigger event, but for someone who does not care about going to panels or buying merchandise, to have to pay more money and deal with worse surrounding circumstances does not feel like an upgraded experience.
The more frustrating part is feeling like we are second-class here since hotels are already full and prices are going up. A more timely announcement so that we could fairly compete for close hotel rooms, or a deal with a further hotel that is a good discount, would help feeling alienated here. A discounted ticket price (that matches closely with what the last rgb was) (done through a code shared here, or through the old website) would also be a great way to get those that might not necessarily care for the new "extras" still excited for the partnership.
@Stochast1c As you can imagine, a partnership like this takes a long time to negotiate. I'll admit, things came together a little last-minute this time but hey, we're all volunteers and have busy schedules, I did my best :P I will have a discount code for all of you when tickets go live (it's gonna be small tho, maybe $5 or $10) If/when we partner with TMG again, we should know much earlier and you'll have a better chance at getting the close hotels. There are going to be some growing pains with this one but I personally think they're worth it!
And I know big conventions aren't for everyone. I still plan to host standalone RGB events in the future! I really love this community and I'm extremely thankful for the love you've show RGB LAN in the past. The last thing I want to do is alienate you guys.
@Stochast1c As you can imagine, a partnership like this takes a long time to negotiate. I'll admit, things came together a little last-minute this time but hey, we're all volunteers and have busy schedules, I did my best :P I will have a discount code for all of you when tickets go live (it's gonna be small tho, maybe $5 or $10) If/when we partner with TMG again, we should know much earlier and you'll have a better chance at getting the close hotels. There are going to be some growing pains with this one but I personally think they're worth it!
And I know big conventions aren't for everyone. I still plan to host standalone RGB events in the future! I really love this community and I'm extremely thankful for the love you've show RGB LAN in the past. The last thing I want to do is alienate you guys.
And I know big conventions aren't for everyone. I still plan to host standalone RGB events in the future! I really love this community and I'm extremely thankful for the love you've show RGB LAN in the past. The last thing I want to do is alienate you guys.
Stochast1cPutting what I posted in the rgb discord here as well, but I'm not really happy with this announcement.
It really feels like I and others like me who just want to go to an event to play games on lan and enjoy time with internet friends are getting pushed out from this event. Even more expensive tickets, no easily accessible hotel (have to drive/uber to the event now), and what looks to be an even noisier environment since there isn't a dedicated hall, is a huge disappointment. It is great that you are able to collaborate with a bigger event, but for someone who does not care about going to panels or buying merchandise, to have to pay more money and deal with worse surrounding circumstances does not feel like an upgraded experience.
The more frustrating part is feeling like we are second-class here since hotels are already full and prices are going up. A more timely announcement so that we could fairly compete for close hotel rooms, or a deal with a further hotel that is a good discount, would help feeling alienated here. A discounted ticket price (that matches closely with what the last rgb was) (done through a code shared here, or through the old website) would also be a great way to get those that might not necessarily care for the new "extras" still excited for the partnership.
I could not disagree with you more on this front, and until otherwise proven by comments in this thread, I believe I speak on behalf of the vast majority of the community when I say this.
Yes, going to a laid back LAN to hang out with your buddies is definitely part of the fun of these smaller LANs, but to say that the way this LAN is organized is a detriment to the community is outrageous to me. When it comes to events like this for our community, I believe it is priceless and every single event like this is a huge source of motivation for our competitive players, even if it’s on the more casual side in comparison to rewind or insomnia.
I’d just like to take the time to say; I appreciate all the hard work and the many hours that have gone into this from all the RGB staff and Fragile over the years and nothing you guys change or do to this LAN will make it unmanageable for the majority of the community. Please keep doing what you’re doing and we know you will give us the best result possible for TF2.
[quote=Stochast1c]Putting what I posted in the rgb discord here as well, but I'm not really happy with this announcement.
It really feels like I and others like me who just want to go to an event to play games on lan and enjoy time with internet friends are getting pushed out from this event. Even more expensive tickets, no easily accessible hotel (have to drive/uber to the event now), and what looks to be an even noisier environment since there isn't a dedicated hall, is a huge disappointment. It is great that you are able to collaborate with a bigger event, but for someone who does not care about going to panels or buying merchandise, to have to pay more money and deal with worse surrounding circumstances does not feel like an upgraded experience.
The more frustrating part is feeling like we are second-class here since hotels are already full and prices are going up. A more timely announcement so that we could fairly compete for close hotel rooms, or a deal with a further hotel that is a good discount, would help feeling alienated here. A discounted ticket price (that matches closely with what the last rgb was) (done through a code shared here, or through the old website) would also be a great way to get those that might not necessarily care for the new "extras" still excited for the partnership.[/quote]
I could not disagree with you more on this front, and until otherwise proven by comments in this thread, I believe I speak on behalf of the vast majority of the community when I say this.
Yes, going to a laid back LAN to hang out with your buddies is definitely part of the fun of these smaller LANs, but to say that the way this LAN is organized is a detriment to the community is outrageous to me. When it comes to events like this for our community, I believe it is priceless and every single event like this is a huge source of motivation for our competitive players, even if it’s on the more casual side in comparison to rewind or insomnia.
I’d just like to take the time to say; I appreciate all the hard work and the many hours that have gone into this from all the RGB staff and Fragile over the years and nothing you guys change or do to this LAN will make it unmanageable for the majority of the community. Please keep doing what you’re doing and we know you will give us the best result possible for TF2.
It really feels like I and others like me who just want to go to an event to play games on lan and enjoy time with internet friends are getting pushed out from this event. Even more expensive tickets, no easily accessible hotel (have to drive/uber to the event now), and what looks to be an even noisier environment since there isn't a dedicated hall, is a huge disappointment. It is great that you are able to collaborate with a bigger event, but for someone who does not care about going to panels or buying merchandise, to have to pay more money and deal with worse surrounding circumstances does not feel like an upgraded experience.
The more frustrating part is feeling like we are second-class here since hotels are already full and prices are going up. A more timely announcement so that we could fairly compete for close hotel rooms, or a deal with a further hotel that is a good discount, would help feeling alienated here. A discounted ticket price (that matches closely with what the last rgb was) (done through a code shared here, or through the old website) would also be a great way to get those that might not necessarily care for the new "extras" still excited for the partnership.[/quote]
I could not disagree with you more on this front, and until otherwise proven by comments in this thread, I believe I speak on behalf of the vast majority of the community when I say this.
Yes, going to a laid back LAN to hang out with your buddies is definitely part of the fun of these smaller LANs, but to say that the way this LAN is organized is a detriment to the community is outrageous to me. When it comes to events like this for our community, I believe it is priceless and every single event like this is a huge source of motivation for our competitive players, even if it’s on the more casual side in comparison to rewind or insomnia.
I’d just like to take the time to say; I appreciate all the hard work and the many hours that have gone into this from all the RGB staff and Fragile over the years and nothing you guys change or do to this LAN will make it unmanageable for the majority of the community. Please keep doing what you’re doing and we know you will give us the best result possible for TF2.
trippaWould like to go again esp. if i can get a ride with someone coming through the rochester area
I'm from the rochester area. I can defiantly give you a ride.
[quote=trippa]Would like to go again esp. if i can get a ride with someone coming through the rochester area[/quote] I'm from the rochester area. I can defiantly give you a ride.
Steiner_RtrippaWould like to go again esp. if i can get a ride with someone coming through the rochester areaI'm from the rochester area. I can defiantly give you a ride.
WTF how are there so many upstate NY tf2 players i didnt know about
first dubthink/munky now you guys
Syracuse LAN when
[quote=Steiner_R][quote=trippa]Would like to go again esp. if i can get a ride with someone coming through the rochester area[/quote] I'm from the rochester area. I can defiantly give you a ride.[/quote]
WTF how are there so many upstate NY tf2 players i didnt know about
first dubthink/munky now you guys
[s]Syracuse LAN when[/s]
WTF how are there so many upstate NY tf2 players i didnt know about
first dubthink/munky now you guys
[s]Syracuse LAN when[/s]
lucrativedetriment to the community
I never said that, nor do my complaints even imply that rgb 4 is a bad thing to exist. I am, however, concerned about the direction that the lan is moving towards. This partnership gains the competitive lan community nothing: no stage for tournament play, no extra prize pools, no special announcers, while causing some minor and major annoyances. No reserved seating, effectively in the middle of a convention hall that doesn't have a focus on competitive gaming, and a slightly late announcement for when the event is occurring are all minor grievances, but they are all easily ignored/dealt with. The major annoyances are however going to hurt some people who want to go to this event. Ticket prices are probably going to be very close to $100 (normal TMG tickets are $55) confirmed to be $75 just to attend and the normal hotels are already booked so expect an extra $100 in hotel room and transportation to the event as well.
There are plenty of people who go to RGB just to screw around with friends, and for them, this partnership is amazing. Those who love the midnight madness events and the team color memes are in for a wonderful experience with all of the extra features. However, that isn't what makes this lan special to me; it is the only competitive focused lan that a large group of TF2 players go to that is on the East Coast. I am worried for whether the lan will support TF2 and more importantly, enable all the players that want to go to be actually able to go in the future.
I’d just like to take the time to say; I appreciate all the hard work and the many hours that have gone into this from all the RGB staff and Fragile over the years and nothing you guys change or do to this LAN will make it unmanageable for the majority of the community. Please keep doing what you’re doing and we know you will give us the best result possible for TF2.
I don't know the politics that were involved with the death of gxl, but the staff that resurrected the lan into rgb have done a wonderful job and I am truly gracious that they are able to put together the event and keep it going into its fourth iteration. However, my concern for competitive tf2 at rgb is precisely the reason I made the post.
[quote=lucrative]detriment to the community[/quote]
I never said that, nor do my complaints even imply that rgb 4 is a bad thing to exist. I am, however, concerned about the direction that the lan is moving towards. This partnership gains the competitive lan community nothing: no stage for tournament play, no extra prize pools, no special announcers, while causing some minor and major annoyances. No reserved seating, effectively in the middle of a convention hall that doesn't have a focus on competitive gaming, and a slightly late announcement for when the event is occurring are all minor grievances, but they are all easily ignored/dealt with. The major annoyances are however going to hurt some people who want to go to this event. Ticket prices are probably going to be very close to $100 (normal TMG tickets are $55) [b]confirmed to be $75[/b] just to attend and the normal hotels are already booked so expect an extra $100 in hotel room and transportation to the event as well.
There are plenty of people who go to RGB just to screw around with friends, and for them, this partnership is amazing. Those who love the midnight madness events and the team color memes are in for a wonderful experience with all of the extra features. However, that isn't what makes this lan special to me; it is the only competitive focused lan that a large group of TF2 players go to that is on the East Coast. I am worried for whether the lan will support TF2 and more importantly, enable all the players that want to go to be actually able to go in the future.
[quote]I’d just like to take the time to say; I appreciate all the hard work and the many hours that have gone into this from all the RGB staff and Fragile over the years and nothing you guys change or do to this LAN will make it unmanageable for the majority of the community. Please keep doing what you’re doing and we know you will give us the best result possible for TF2.[/quote]
I don't know the politics that were involved with the death of gxl, but the staff that resurrected the lan into rgb have done a wonderful job and I am truly gracious that they are able to put together the event and keep it going into its fourth iteration. However, my concern for competitive tf2 at rgb is precisely the reason I made the post.
I never said that, nor do my complaints even imply that rgb 4 is a bad thing to exist. I am, however, concerned about the direction that the lan is moving towards. This partnership gains the competitive lan community nothing: no stage for tournament play, no extra prize pools, no special announcers, while causing some minor and major annoyances. No reserved seating, effectively in the middle of a convention hall that doesn't have a focus on competitive gaming, and a slightly late announcement for when the event is occurring are all minor grievances, but they are all easily ignored/dealt with. The major annoyances are however going to hurt some people who want to go to this event. Ticket prices are probably going to be very close to $100 (normal TMG tickets are $55) [b]confirmed to be $75[/b] just to attend and the normal hotels are already booked so expect an extra $100 in hotel room and transportation to the event as well.
There are plenty of people who go to RGB just to screw around with friends, and for them, this partnership is amazing. Those who love the midnight madness events and the team color memes are in for a wonderful experience with all of the extra features. However, that isn't what makes this lan special to me; it is the only competitive focused lan that a large group of TF2 players go to that is on the East Coast. I am worried for whether the lan will support TF2 and more importantly, enable all the players that want to go to be actually able to go in the future.
[quote]I’d just like to take the time to say; I appreciate all the hard work and the many hours that have gone into this from all the RGB staff and Fragile over the years and nothing you guys change or do to this LAN will make it unmanageable for the majority of the community. Please keep doing what you’re doing and we know you will give us the best result possible for TF2.[/quote]
I don't know the politics that were involved with the death of gxl, but the staff that resurrected the lan into rgb have done a wonderful job and I am truly gracious that they are able to put together the event and keep it going into its fourth iteration. However, my concern for competitive tf2 at rgb is precisely the reason I made the post.
Stochast1cmy concern for competitive tf2 at rgb is precisely the reason I made the post.
You have nothing to worry about. I'm still the tournament director for RGB and make all of the tournament decisions on that front. I'm completely aware of how much TF2 cares about a good community LAN that is not only competitive, but welcoming. You can still expect the exact same kind of effort and dedication I give towards the TF2 tournament and all of the tournaments in general. TooManyGames are not dictating ANYTHING to us about tournaments or anything on how we run our show.
Stochast1cTicket prices are probably going to be very close to $100 (normal TMG tickets are $55)
Ticket prices will be $75, not $100. Normal TMG tickets are indeed about $55, but $75 will get you a RGB seat AND let you explore TMG with their many vendors / games to do whatever. Plus, we will be releasing a code that will get you $5-$10 off as an early bird special discount code.
I can understand your apprehensions, but I'm here to tell you that ur boi, Lord TheFragile :3, has it under control.
If you (or anyone) has any further questions or concerns, feel free to post here. Additionally, you can add me on Steam or message me on Discord. My Discord is TheFragile#5249
[quote=Stochast1c]my concern for competitive tf2 at rgb is precisely the reason I made the post.[/quote]
You have nothing to worry about. I'm still the tournament director for RGB and make all of the tournament decisions on that front. I'm completely aware of how much TF2 cares about a good community LAN that is not only competitive, but welcoming. You can still expect the [b]exact[/b] same kind of effort and dedication I give towards the TF2 tournament and all of the tournaments in general. TooManyGames are not dictating ANYTHING to us about tournaments or anything on how we run our show.
[quote=Stochast1c]Ticket prices are probably going to be very close to $100 (normal TMG tickets are $55)[/quote]
Ticket prices will be $75, not $100. Normal TMG tickets are indeed about $55, but $75 will get you a RGB seat AND let you explore TMG with their many vendors / games to do whatever. Plus, we will be releasing a code that will get you $5-$10 off as an early bird special discount code.
I can understand your apprehensions, but I'm here to tell you that ur boi, Lord TheFragile :3, has it under control.
If you (or anyone) has any further questions or concerns, feel free to post here. Additionally, you can add me on Steam or message me on Discord. My Discord is TheFragile#5249
You have nothing to worry about. I'm still the tournament director for RGB and make all of the tournament decisions on that front. I'm completely aware of how much TF2 cares about a good community LAN that is not only competitive, but welcoming. You can still expect the [b]exact[/b] same kind of effort and dedication I give towards the TF2 tournament and all of the tournaments in general. TooManyGames are not dictating ANYTHING to us about tournaments or anything on how we run our show.
[quote=Stochast1c]Ticket prices are probably going to be very close to $100 (normal TMG tickets are $55)[/quote]
Ticket prices will be $75, not $100. Normal TMG tickets are indeed about $55, but $75 will get you a RGB seat AND let you explore TMG with their many vendors / games to do whatever. Plus, we will be releasing a code that will get you $5-$10 off as an early bird special discount code.
I can understand your apprehensions, but I'm here to tell you that ur boi, Lord TheFragile :3, has it under control.
If you (or anyone) has any further questions or concerns, feel free to post here. Additionally, you can add me on Steam or message me on Discord. My Discord is TheFragile#5249
The amount of work you put in to make all of the tournaments (especially the tf2 one) work is commendable, but my concerns are not with the tournaments themselves (provided you are still the one running them) but with whether a change that doesn't do anything positive for the competitive community is going be detrimental to the participation of players in the lan itself.
The amount of work you put in to make all of the tournaments (especially the tf2 one) work is commendable, but my concerns are not with the tournaments themselves (provided you are still the one running them) but with whether a change that doesn't do anything positive for the competitive community is going be detrimental to the participation of players in the lan itself.
I know that you guys give a shit about the LAN being awesome and about the TF2 tournament being awesome. Having a different thing down the hall with a bunch of vendors is not going to change how RGB runs its event or how I run the tournaments. In fact, I already have things lined up to make the TF2 event better this year in terms of production, prizes, and so forth. I assure you that RGB has the TF2 tournament in good hands, and we always consider you guys.
Everyone on the RGB staff, including myself, know how much the TF2 gamers love the LAN and everything that comes with it. You can expect the exact same kind of good time as before. No group is being pushed away, ostracized, or not considered. Additionally, there is no "direction" we are moving in or any kind of path we are deviating from except the same awesome show we try to put on every year.
Again, if you have any further concerns, feel free to reach out to me.
I know that you guys give a shit about the LAN being awesome and about the TF2 tournament being awesome. Having a different thing down the hall with a bunch of vendors is not going to change how RGB runs its event or how I run the tournaments. In fact, I already have things lined up to make the TF2 event [b]better[/b] this year in terms of production, prizes, and so forth. I assure you that RGB has the TF2 tournament in good hands, and we [b]always[/b] consider you guys.
Everyone on the RGB staff, including myself, know how much the TF2 gamers love the LAN and everything that comes with it. You can expect the exact same kind of good time as before. No group is being pushed away, ostracized, or not considered. Additionally, there is no "direction" we are moving in or any kind of path we are deviating from except the same awesome show we try to put on every year.
Again, if you have any further concerns, feel free to reach out to me.
Everyone on the RGB staff, including myself, know how much the TF2 gamers love the LAN and everything that comes with it. You can expect the exact same kind of good time as before. No group is being pushed away, ostracized, or not considered. Additionally, there is no "direction" we are moving in or any kind of path we are deviating from except the same awesome show we try to put on every year.
Again, if you have any further concerns, feel free to reach out to me.
looking for a carpool from jersey
also lft as scout or soldier
looking for a carpool from jersey
also lft as scout or soldier
also lft as scout or soldier
most likely able to go cu@ :)
idk if ill play but i definitely wanna go and meet people
most likely able to go cu@ :)
idk if ill play but i definitely wanna go and meet people
idk if ill play but i definitely wanna go and meet people
ether_most likely able to go cu@ :)
idk if ill play but i definitely wanna go and meet people
are you gonna steal my pc to play osu again
[quote=ether_]most likely able to go cu@ :)
idk if ill play but i definitely wanna go and meet people[/quote]
are you gonna steal my pc to play osu again
idk if ill play but i definitely wanna go and meet people[/quote]
are you gonna steal my pc to play osu again
cu@
lft scout/roamer/pocket/demo in order from best 2 worst
cu@
lft scout/roamer/pocket/demo in order from best 2 worst
lft scout/roamer/pocket/demo in order from best 2 worst
A few people have been asking about PC rentals. Unfortunately the provider we used last time isn't available to help us for this event, so I'm working on finding someone else to rent from. The best price I've gotten so far is $120 per machine, which sucks, so I'm gonna keep looking. As soon as I find someone with better pricing and lock them in, I'll let you guys know!
A few people have been asking about PC rentals. Unfortunately the provider we used last time isn't available to help us for this event, so I'm working on finding someone else to rent from. The best price I've gotten so far is $120 per machine, which sucks, so I'm gonna keep looking. As soon as I find someone with better pricing and lock them in, I'll let you guys know!
_brianether_most likely able to go cu@ :)
idk if ill play but i definitely wanna go and meet people
are you gonna steal my pc to play osu again
bring ur spare pc and i will :)
hopefully rentals work out so i dont have to ^^
[quote=_brian][quote=ether_]most likely able to go cu@ :)
idk if ill play but i definitely wanna go and meet people[/quote]
are you gonna steal my pc to play osu again[/quote]
bring ur spare pc and i will :)
hopefully rentals work out so i dont have to ^^
idk if ill play but i definitely wanna go and meet people[/quote]
are you gonna steal my pc to play osu again[/quote]
bring ur spare pc and i will :)
hopefully rentals work out so i dont have to ^^
So, a couple of things to update everyone on:
Hotels
https://tmg.toomanygames.com/hotels/
Use these links to book your hotel. These links on the page automatically have the TMG block code on them. If you plan on going, book your hotel ASAP so it doesn't become an issue later.
Tickets
RGB tickets will go live in the coming weeks. I'll update you here when they do.
TF2 tournament info
I'll be updating the first post with additional information about the TF2 tournament over the next week or two. Everyone will have a lot to look forward to about this. :3
So, a couple of things to update everyone on:
[u][b]Hotels[/b][/u]
https://tmg.toomanygames.com/hotels/
Use these links to book your hotel. These links on the page automatically have the TMG block code on them. If you plan on going, book your hotel ASAP so it doesn't become an issue later.
[u][b]Tickets[/b][/u]
RGB tickets will go live in the coming weeks. I'll update you here when they do.
[u][b]TF2 tournament info[/b][/u]
I'll be updating the first post with additional information about the TF2 tournament over the next week or two. Everyone will have a lot to look forward to about this. :3
[u][b]Hotels[/b][/u]
https://tmg.toomanygames.com/hotels/
Use these links to book your hotel. These links on the page automatically have the TMG block code on them. If you plan on going, book your hotel ASAP so it doesn't become an issue later.
[u][b]Tickets[/b][/u]
RGB tickets will go live in the coming weeks. I'll update you here when they do.
[u][b]TF2 tournament info[/b][/u]
I'll be updating the first post with additional information about the TF2 tournament over the next week or two. Everyone will have a lot to look forward to about this. :3
cu@ ;3
i can host 1 or 2 people if you're ok with going back to the city each night and taking public transport to the venue
cu@ ;3
i can host 1 or 2 people if you're ok with going back to the city each night and taking public transport to the venue
i can host 1 or 2 people if you're ok with going back to the city each night and taking public transport to the venue
damn, wish I could go. feel screwed after the whole rewind fiasco
damn, wish I could go. feel screwed after the whole rewind fiasco
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