I shed a tear

Also,
http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/1318

Well, we (I mainly) try to compile the best resources in the relevant pages.

If you check for example the get started
, badwater or the roamer page, you can find plenty of resources from external sites for that content. Its not done for every page mainly because it has been kind of a lone effort from me and a couple other people.

Great work, just want to add that most of those resources are listed on the relevant pages on comp.tf

The aim of the site is not to work only as a wiki but also as a indexer/compilations of external resources and guides in the game

Which in turns limits the possibilities because if 1 demo goes shield to mid the other team is pretty much forced to run a shield demo as well or else you are not going to do anything against a demo with resistances with your projectile classes.

I think a much more interesting solution would be to give this damage ramp up to self damage as well. Meaning you could see the demo jumping game completely turning around and allowing for a much more aggressive bombing style, then a roaming demo would be efficient. It's still very far from what I think should be the class core abilities but if the nerf stays like this at least I hope they rethink the way its done.

Im really excited for dirty bomb, W: Enemy Territory was one of my biggest addictions when I was a kid, and it was an awesome game, I loved its comp scene as well, and that's why I love class based fps's. I hope something good from Splash Damage, still haven't tried the beta tho.

Im still trying to picture how is this good in any sense?

What are you gonna run instead? Pyro or heavy? Both are terrible from a spectator POV. Not mentioning that if you run a pyro full time the other team is almost forced to run a pyro as well because their projectile classes will be countered hard. If you run a heavy full time you're gonna have the same problem as with the quickfix, if you run a sniper full time it's gonna be a snooze fest until you get any picks, same as engie and any other class you can think of.

I think the current (pre-nerf) meta is the most balanced and interesting both from a spectator and a player Pov. Its the byproduct of over 7 years of continued playing and experience after all.

Sure if the nerf stays like it is something will have to change, teams will play differently, but I don't see how we can benefit from it in any way. Much less if demo is run as an utility class.

Also, will be lots of fun trying to push any point in HL now. /s

I did not because I was asleep, timezones are a strange thing right? But I did watch the epsilon game and played a few games myself, I'm not just talking out of my ass.

Don't get me wrong, that was funny as fuck, but why are you making it seem like its just a matter of adapting and dealing with it?

Valve completely changed how the core weapon of one of the core classes of the competitive metagame works, is that not something worthy of getting up in your arms whether you're a demo main or not?

As I said more than 1 time I am really worried of what's to come, all from what I've seen seems to lead to a less exciting and more stale gameplay.

I haven't even mentioned highlander properly but I will just mention the fact that its now virtually impossible to kill a full buffed heavy with the stickylauncher as a demo even after emptying your whole clip and that wrangled sentries take 16 stickies to go down. Ain't that fun? Let's all adapt and rejoice the new meta...

That might work in a moba style game, the periodic balance patches that is, and I must say that it actually does wonders for the dota metagame at least, which I am somewhat on par with. But I don't think FPS's benefit from this at all, especially a team based fps like tf2.

Look at CS balance patches for example, most of it are real bugfixes or broken/underpowered weapons like the AUG changes, or the slight deagle buff a few months ago, even new weapons are very closely worked on, not just dumped into the game and expected to fit the meta. If you changed a core attribute of the AWP for example, all hell would break loose.

As much success as they have in the esports world, I think we shouldn't look up to moba's as a guideline for us.

I was fooling around in a pub today and there was a spy coming directly at me with his knife out, I fired 3 stickies and hit him for around 30 each time, did more self damage than actual damage despite the stickies being closer to him than me. He butter-knifed me, this is depressing... ;_;

Am I supposed to find the good part in this? Because nothing in this seems good to me...

Whether you like it or not the tf2 metagame at the moment is much more polished and interesting to watch than it was in 2009 and honestly these long midfights, and demo playstyle doesn't really bring me any joy.

I really can't see any way this nerf can benefit the actual 6v6 and HL metagame. All the things I have looked at so far indicate it will only indirectly make the game more drawn out, slow paced and boring, with possibly bringing heavy back into the meta. Please kill me now if people think that's the way to go.

So what would be your argument against limiting demos to 2 again?

Because I really dont see the point in perfectly balancing classes in a class based team game, that's exactly how its supposed to work, classes arent supposed to be equally balanced across the board, some will have counters, some will not, some will have core attributes totally different from other classes, some will be more valuable in some situations, some in others, bottom line is, in a class based team game the point shouldnt be to equally balance the classes across the board but instead the interactions between them. And I think tf2 had that quite well put with demo.

Epsilon didnt use a demo on viaduct, lol

http://logs.tf/326918?highlight=76561197996833775

Agreed, makes choke pushes less uber reliant but it's still the core of the class, area denial, you are directly nerfing the core attribute of the class, that's not doing any good. There would be plenty of ways to go about it instead of this nerf.

Sorry but no, Kritz is kind of a joke now if its a surprise/close kritz, a kritz sticky on the medic can deal as much as 120 dmg now, what a joke, it won't even 1-hit a unbuffed scout. It doesn't sound much like high risk high reward to me, more like high risk, no reward. It's a huge nerf to the kritz indirectly, so this does indeed make the game more stale if kritz are out of the picture or at least nerfed as bad as this.

Exactly, demo was never intended to be a close combat class, it's actually its main weakness, why make it even weaker in that aspect? I simply dont understand. The positioning argument is cool and all but that can be said about pretty much anything if you think about it, why should the soldier have gunboats? They are a crutch to bad positioning and allow to get out of bad situations easily, lets not go that way please, thats a horrible argument, and its one of the arguments high level players used to say in europe before the unlocks were introduced.

For the demo they are. Demo has always been known as a powerclass, a gamechanger, mid was heavily reliant on the demo doing its work. This nerf really does taste very bitter in that aspect. You are left with a 175 hp class with less mobility (or at least more costly mobility) than the other classes on the field which now deals very little damage compared to the other damage dealing classes. Also the instant det stickies were the core of demoman mids, 1 good sticky, or 2 good stickies on the scouts, or demo, etc, could really influence a lot the course of the mid and IMO that's how it should be, the class is limited to 1 for a reason. With the current status you feel so powerless you might as well have 2 demos on the field, in other words, irrelevant impact compared to before, which is why demo limit is 1.

That argument is really flawed. You are basically saying a nerf which makes a class deal like 30% less damage, be even less reliable on close combat and have less impact with high risk high reward plays (with kritz for example) a question of "aiming better". Thats laughable

As if choke spamming was the only thing preventing a more agressive or faster playstyle in a game where you have ubercharges which make a player invulnerable for seconds, you have overheals which give a class 150% of its health, you have sentries, 450 hp buffed heavies, you have wrangler, etc etc... Choke spamming isn't as bad as you make it out to be, especially when it's the whole point and core of this class, area denial.

Take of that what you will, I think I explained my points pretty well, lets not get to personal insults.

There hasn't been much time for thorough testing but I would say that the fact that you do on average 20-30% (this might not be exactly accurate but its what I got on average so far) less damage per game basically forces you to adapt a different playstyle. It's only logic to do so.

-Not as effective choke spamming as before.
-Sentries take much longer to take out (ridiculous 16 stickies for wrangled sentries from what I tested and heard)
-Surprise/Choke kritz astonishingly less effective
-Even worse close combat

Mids are kind of a joke, the damage still has to be dealt somehow, so nerfing the biggest damage dealer in the game won't make the game faster or more agressive, other classes will end up having to compensate for the damage the demo is lacking so you will end up with mids similar in time or even longer

This is from what I saw / experienced so far.

It's not as linear as, nerf demo damage->game is suddently better and faster. If valve really wanted to promote a more agressive playstyle maybe they should have added ramp up dmg to the self damage as well, that way you would get new crazy rollouts, more mobility and much more agressive jumping demos in trade for the less damage.