I think people have slowed it down for sure themselves with the playstile and with the "meta", but from a game developer point of perspective, if something has a tendency to act a certain way, it is very likely caused by the system of rules which it is bound by and by changing the rules and parameters, even slightly, you could potentially redirect the course immensely.

I have no clue what to change in the system however to fix it and from a developers point of view, I would start with incremental test changes to see what effect they have and with actual real time data, adjust accordingly.

However the problem here is that the tf2 community, thanks to its own environment, is super conservative and would rather theory craft theoreticals and come to conclusions they 'think' to be true, rather than to actually make changes and see how it would affect the gameplay. Most of the time, if a change is made by the community and it has negative effects, the change is then reverted and the idea neglected and everyone goes back to their old comfort zone they were so use to, even tho the more healthier thing to do, if u actually want to make a change, is to adjust the parameters of the adjustment. The tf2 community claims to want to grow and fix problems, but essentially we don't, because growth to us is only acceptable if everything stays the same - contradictory? Yes!

Is there a tool out there where you have pictures of different significant points on the map where you can place class icons to symbolize where one should hold/do in situations?

I know there used to be but can't find it so maybe it is down or different name?

Evil_MrMuffinz

You lobbing rockets, something I argued you could do with another rocket launcher to a lesser extent, is thanks to the fact you were being otherwise uncontested the entire time. You denied the soldiers trying to contest you, do you credit that to the cowmangler? If not, I would then say that the situation is valid but pretty rare.

The point is to have a larger discussion about it. Why would the tftv threads even exist as a place if no one was allowed to share their thoughts about the competitive tf2. The community should have a say about what is going on in their league.

You could then argue that the upgrade is not that significant if it gets nerfed by its visiuals. I also belive people will still use the stock and original over the mangler, either for esthetics, personal preference or to counter sentries.

The point is, banning something for its visuals doesn't make much sense because its not very objective - some like it, some dont - it becomes more of a subjective discussion.

That is a great example of how it could get abused. I think with a weapon with a clip u might have ran out of it. However I would also believe it is your reward if u can sit on spire uncontested the eternity to spam your whole arsenal so maybe not specific to cowmangler?

I am not forcing you to use it. If u don't like so don't use it. Would it not be nice if people who like the visuals and effects could use it?

Ah I see.

"devil's advocate era" I like that :)

It honestly was not clear to me, I genuinely like what it brings to the table and wanted to have a healthy discussion and get input from others opinions.

What I am hearing tho is that the charge shot is too toxic and therefore can't be allowed. If no charge shot, do you think it then would be balanced enough? Don't forget it has zero counter-play to sentries then.

Do that significant amount of times and I can agree with you.

What plugin?

Also gj using insults to make a point, that makes your argument valid and convincing!

Is it brainless tho? You have to time and aim it, like with the iron bomber. Miss-time and u have no ammo, miss and u do no damage. A buff to soldier seems appropriate imo considering scout and demo are so strong.

sticky trap

I think my weakness in this argument is that I haven't seen the charged shot being effective. I keep thinking of scenarios where:

1# The charge shot is done from a long range so the soldier is safe if he has no ammo. The charge shot can be easily dodged from that range. If the soldier misses, he wasted his whole clip for zero damage and now can no longer spam => actually reduced spam.

2# The shot is done from a close range so it is harder to dodge but the soldier in turn is in trouble if he gets caught out.

Again, I lack the proper experience from playing with and against the mangler and would like to see it in action. I only remember experiencing it in etf2l for a month or so (maybe even less) when it was allowed and thought it was nice.

Could one argue then that they don't want to play against the iron bomber as it is more unskilled vs the stock (thx to the hitbox)?

We have plugins that remove scout moment speed and gb and whatnot, I don't know anything about coding plugins but would it be possible to disable the charged shot if it such a huge deal?

The iron bomber has a hitbox 4 times larger than the stick one. If there is no reason not to use the stock then it is a buff for sure and a direct upgrade. Arguing which is stronger is relative and I would say that the iron bomber is buff arguably too strong if stock is useless in comparison. There are a lot of cases when u would want to take out the sentry before push so not to waist ur uber on it because demo does not have the same angles soldiers have i.e every last point?

The sound, visuals and I think even where the rockets come from are not the same tho.

EDIT: I want to discuss why the mangler is not allowed while stuff like iron bomber - a direct buff for demo and no reason not to use it over the stock - is allowed.