Thanks, really appreciate this thorough feedback.

I think I've found what the issue might be and I will get a u7 update out shortly (discussing with etf2l admins whether it's possible to try u7 in the preseason cup).

This is getting downvoted but if you can provide photographic evidence it would be greatly helpful so I can redeem any kind of lighting issues.

Also appreciate images of these fading prop issues, this is one of the last things I want to fix in the final version.

As far as I'm concerned u6 will be the version played in the preseason cup, but I haven't personally been in touch with the cup admins.

Hey guys, sorry about the long wait.

Here's u6: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_snakewater_u6.bsp.bz2

Changelog u6:
Fixed some visual inconsistencies
Changed solidity of various props
Reverted ramps on last to opaque
Train crates are now lumber
Adjusted clipping to more closely resemble geometry
Fixed some displacement bugs
Fixed duplicate stairs ;-;
Full lighting compile - please comment if any place seems darker than the stock version

To clarify: this will be played in the ETF2L preseason cup.

Happy Easter everyone,

Here's a special egg for you, u5 download: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_snakewater_u5.bsp.bz2

Changelog u5:

* Fixed some visual bugs
* Removed some obstructive detailing
* Fixed displacement seams
* Fixed saw columns not being mirrored
* Fixed some missing overlays
* Fixed stickies not sticking to roofs on mid
* Changed the train crates near 2 again

Hopefully this will be the stable for version for final playtesting before I ship the update to Valve.

Alright, did anyone get to playtesting the current version? It would be great to hear your opinions on the gameplay changes now that most bugs have been fixed.

Specifically, the major gameplay changes are:

* Canopy roofs pulled back around Saw
* Spawn time reduction increased when attacking last
* Capture time of last reduced

Please give me your thoughts on the changes, and hopefully we will see the updated version in the game shortly.

Updated to u4a to fix packing once and for all.

Download: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_snakewater_u4a.bsp.bz2

Changelog u4a:

Fixed small visual bugs
Tweaked some clipping
Finally fixed material packing...

Ok, here's u4! Hopefully there will be no packing errors this time, if you get visual bugs please tell me and I'll get a new version running.

Download u4: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_snakewater_u4.bsp.bz2

Changelog u4:

Major:
* Ramp at last somewhat reverted
* Increased spawntime reduction when attacking last from 3 to 4 seconds
* Decreased last cap time from 2.3 to 2.1 seconds

Minor:
* Fixed floating chimney
* Changed roof clips for consistency
* Fixed forward spawn roof clipping
* Mirrored some signs for consistency
* Replaced some lighting props
* Fixed some clipping errors
* Fixed missing custom assets
* Fixed roof clipping through ceiling
* Made more doors non solid
* Added some fancy lighting
* Added some fences
* Changed solidity of various props
* Fixed some shadow bugs
* BLU radio tower is now blue!

Just for reference, almost all of this kind of splash areas should be fixed (with blockbullets) as of _u1; this was one of the first things I knew I wanted to do when I updated the map. If you still encounter any splash bugs, please do tell me and I'll be sure to take a look.

As for your comments on respawn times, I will definitely take a look at what can be done. Increasing cap time by ~0.2 seconds, and decreasing spawn time for attackers by 1-2 seconds should be enough to make any other changes unnecessary.

I'll take a look at the Product solution, I suppose it's fine to make the overhangs non-solid as long as it's just on the tops of buildings. When I tried non-solid overhangs in the recent update, it quickly became frustrating.

I contemplated the Gullywash solution but I'm not sure that creating a trap room would be a great idea. I'm worried that it will mostly cause frustration for defenders where they are obstructed as they are retreating. The idea is that if you are as far back as in spawn, you should be too far away from the combat zone to be of any use for a few seconds. The problem which you describe where people simply back into spawn and come back out with full uber might be somewhat redeemed with a tweaked cap time (not by much, mind you).

The reactions to the ramp are very interesting to me. Frankly, the geometry is almost identical bar a slight rotation of the ramp toward the attackers. The gravel pile should make movement around the ramp even smoother. I won't be stubborn about keeping it. Specifically, the aspect of the corridor to the hole on last becoming wider and thus creating a stronger approach for defenders is a valid point. But I disagree that the current solution is any more cluttered in terms of freedom of mobility.

Once more, thanks for these thorough posts, they are obviously golden! I do have some comments this time.

Could you elaborate on what makes this ramp more frustrating? After the recent changes I feel like it plays alright and it somewhat skews the advantage of the ramp toward attackers.

I do agree that the new fence might be a bit too strong as a height advantage. Any suggestion on how I might block spam toward the little window? Is it even desirable?

I'm going to need more input on this. The reason for the change is the all-encompassing "the cracks catch spam" mantra, but I am frankly questioning how far I should take that doctrine. Does every object have to be perfectly smooth? I prefer the old version visually and actually in terms of gameplay (rockets between crates), but I tried this as a solution to remove the cracks without removing the sightline.

Can someone chime in here? The discussion is valid for a lot of places.

I went for a solution where any clip that is likely to affect gameplay often will be smooth. The solution is (as you know) simply a clip brush from the overhang to the ground. This is fine for lower buildings, but on higher ones they start affecting how you interact with the wall on the ground more than they add. In most places I deemed it unlikely that anyone would jump that high, that close to the walls.

I agree that consistency is a virtue, but in this case the solution is too patchy (to me) to be used everywhere. You might be able to convince me with some examples, though!

This is really nice. That kind of perspective doesn't really occur to me naturally as I hardly played soldier on the map so I don't know the rollouts/jump patterns very well. If there's any other spot where jumping might be improved, please tell me!

Cheers,
chojje

Alright, sorry about that broken version. This one should be rather bug free considering the number of hours I've been mindlessly running around it (but I can't wait for you to prove me wrong).

Here's the most recent version: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_snakewater_u3.bsp.bz2

Changelog u3:

Major:
* Pulled back canopy above saw-mid connector. Image
* Fixed red forward spawn

Minor:
* Fixed missing textures
* Fixed newly introduced hiding spot
* Tweaked grass ramp
* Fixed invisible fence
* Fixed some wrong coloured textures
* Fixed solid doors in spawn
* Removed barrels from spawn
* Removed gap in fence near grass
* Simplified geometry of ramp at last
* Fixed rock sticking out of wood wall
* ???
* BLU crane is now blue!

As always, your playtesting is appreciated. Hopefully this version is stable enough for some continous playtesting of the gameplay changes.

Cheers,
chojje

The snakes were removed by valve for space reasons (???). Valve already agreed to bring back the sky so maybe I can get the snakes back in too!

Hey,

I've kept working on the next version through the weekend. Hopefully I will be able to fix most bugs with some quick iterations now, and then get some playtesting on a stable version.

Here's the current version, u2: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2447457/cp_snakewater_u2.bsp.bz2

Changelog u2:

Major:
* Added small healthkit in lobby
* Reverted roof edges
* Roof clippings are far more consistent
* Changed train crates
* Removed canopy above saw - 2 connector (I might do this for the saw - mid connector as well).
Image: http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/320125724624456428/C6CBA511B567D6B0EB3186804BA2BA278D278854/ http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/320125724624456839/B441788A5EADE3EC934AF95D5A06FB5CF433F42A/

Minor:
* Removed superfluous clipping
* Changed solidity of various props
* Fixed stickies in shutter door on last
* Reverted awning over grass
* Fixed getting stuck behind dino rock
* Further improved ground smoothness
* Fixed missing textures/Z-fighting
* Blocked off area below old dropdown
* Blocked off area below ramp on 2
* Fixed splash bug on lobby-2 ramp
* Changed shutter door prop in lobby
* Moved some building details out of bounds
* Tweaked mid platform rotation
* Reduced sightline in lobby

As always, your feedback and bug finding skills are always appreciated! I think most major clipping bugs have been worked out now. I will have to make a decision about geometry which catches spam.

I'm trying to force defenders to play more aggressively in order to make last slightly more difficult to defend. Do you think this is the wrong direction to take?