I really love maps with an emphasis on height advantages, I'll take a look when I get home

I can't imagine doing that demo rollout. You wouldn't have any hp when you get to mid.

I really like it

looks sweet

things i first noticed:

• every 5cp i can think of has multiple spawn exits (first spawn)
  
• 2nd point is just sitting in the middle of the floor, and is a bit close to last - obviously designed like granary and thats okay, but i would try to make it a bit harder to cap moving out from last, either with height advantage or distance from the point.
  
• this room has a very low ceiling for an area you walk around in. (above the stairs)
  
• not a big deal but i like the forward spawn locations, non-confusing.
  
• you have a couple of one-person sized doorways and thats okay but i dont care for them
  
• this opening is interesting but would be gimmicky with crits.
  
• random flank hallway?? dont see much reason in this
  
• i thought this might be a better place for second, everybody likes spires
  
• kinda hard to explain, but right now last seems to be a bit too defensible, as no doors to last help you get high ground faster.
  
• middle is probably my favorite part of the map, although its a bit too big and open - people would hate snipers on it.

all of this is just opinion and overall i like the map. hope to see it improve!

edit: i tryed doing some rollouts and i noticed the healthpacks are really wonky. not high priority though

It seems like it might be a little sniper friendly. Despite that this looks neat. Looking forward to what happens with this map.

To Bereth, here is a video of me doing the demo rollout with buff from the medic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm9rmvGtd4Q&feature=youtu.be

You arrive at mid with ~90 health, and the small pack at mid will get you up to ~120 health. Because the demo rollout at this speed is around 3-5 seconds faster than the other rollouts, you shouldn't need more. If you want more at the cost of speed, you can get back to full health by picking up the medium pack by going left into crane room and then back out.

Brrton (as well as everyone) thanks for feedback so quickly. I do have the addition of a second spawn door on my list of changes to be made, although I haven't done so. I didn't add a second spawn door for a10 because I realized that to push onto last you really need at least 2 picks; and given the capture time on last (it's similar to badlands at the moment) spawncamping doesn't seem like much of an issue. It is planned to put another door in.

As far as capping 2nd coming from last, it's already decently difficult. Because of the balcony, the team defending second from yard/mid side has a decent advantage. What I've seen in PUGs is that it's typically easier to push 2nd-last than last-2nd, interestingly enough. Of course, we haven't had legitimate teams play on the map yet so I'm definitely still willing to revise that statement, but at the moment I'm not sure it's too much of an issue.

The ceiling height issue, the doors being a little small, that stuff can be fixed easy. Added to the changelist.

I haven't considered kritz through that opening. It was put there originally for the demo rollout. That would be interesting, I've not seen that used. Kritz in general is pretty good on this map. I was considering putting a door or hatch on that window, so that it's open when you own 2nd but closed otherwise.

That flank used to be a bit more sneaky, with the opening not visible and it made it too easy to get into 2nd. It's still there, but it can be removed. I haven't really seen a reason to get rid of it, but at the same time it is kinda useless.

Mid seems to fluctuate between too big and too open vs. too closed and too small between versions. It did get a decent amount smaller, widthwise, since the beginning, and I have thought about shrinking it a bit lengthwise but I'm still not sure if I want to or not (part of the reason why I posted the map here!).

Also, your positioning for second is really interesting. I will definitely try it in a future version and see if it plays better. I'm not quite sure what I would do with the current 2nd building, though.

Once again, thanks for all of the quick feedback guys!

That fast roamer rollout isn't good, there's no reason to do a fast rollout if you can't get to mid faster than Demo. This middle looks a lot like Granary, in that regard, it's not a cp_process.
If you want to let roamers do ANYTHING on this middle at all, please remove this from the map, it doesn't let soldiers do an off the wall jump on someone, something you could easily do on Granary.

http://i.imgur.com/itYFka4.jpg

Second point is extremely easy to defend with a demo, you don't even have to engage them at all or look at them and they have no opportunities to spam back either as pipes shot from inside the second point are easily dodged. I suggest making the capture area for second much larger, encapsulating where my crosshair is pointing as well in the screenshot.

http://i.imgur.com/2rBpMOE.jpg

Some other thoughts, I don't like the demo rollout. It's very easily prone to failure and the team that fails it will get stuck out immediately. Rollouts becomes more of a dice roll because those kind of jumps don't always work even for more experienced jumpers(not to mention, lower div players will get consistently shit on because their demo can't do a rollout).

If you really want to be different on creating a rollout, why not try something to do with water? Speedshots and double stickies are much more failure prone than water.

I'd love to see a map with a rollout like this jump_littleman jump.

A map that can let you be extremely creative with rollouts while still keeping it a short time to get to mid for the rest of the team is very nice. It's a big reason why cp_process is so loved.

If you do plan to use a water style jump and revamp the rollout, do some one-way doors for them.

its not badlands

The roamer on my team has said before I found the rollout I posted that there probably wasn't a point to a fast roamer rollout as well, due to the demo being there more quickly.

As for the demo rollout, see this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbpItw8IcJ0&feature=youtu.be

tl:dw you can do a 1 sticky rollout that's only around 2 seconds slower and you end up with more health at mid if you're worried about doing the 2 sticky rollout; if you fail the 2 sticky rollout you can still manage to get to mid just before the soldiers do and with similar health if you grab a pack on the way.

I've definitely been forced out by a roamer in PUGs multiple times, although you do show a very interesting point with the removal of the cranes. I'll definitely try that for one version as well.

With the addition of the two crates orthagonal to the ground, any class can get to that awning at 2nd. I did not actually intend for this, and I'm still not sure how I feel about it. I haven't really seen that be a very strong holding point, but once again, we've only done PUGs on it.

If anyone would like to organize a scrim on this map, that would be excellent. I feel like two real teams playing this map would give me the best feedback.

you have a serious problem

I think you'd have better luck with that during the off-season since everyone is playing ESEA now and are practicing for the maps they will be playing.

You could ask some UGC teams or PUG it with higher level players.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3OPVgY55QA&feature=youtu.be

i did some different rollouts, not the fastest but viable.

I'm the captain of a UGC team so in all likelihood I'll wind up getting a steel scrim going on it. Someday we'll get a higher level scrim going. I find that the more experienced players wind up giving better feedback.

Last needs at least 3 entrances. Maybe try to work one in over here:

http://i.imgur.com/cp9tHk0.jpg

The 2nd point basically only has 2 entrances as well. It is also at a height disadvantage compared to yard that reminds me a lot of freight 2nd. I think you might want try opening up the 2nd point and maybe connecting it to yard more. You could play around with removing/opening up parts of this wall more:

http://i.imgur.com/nbHHHp7.jpg

I echo the complaint that the crane really limits soldiers entering mid. I think you could keep it, just move it to the other side of mid, maybe raised on the upper platform. I also think your mid might need another entrance, which could go right under the crane if you decide to move it:

http://i.imgur.com/z2KtIW0.jpg

Your map is littered with gaps and cracks that will infuriate people playing projectile classes because they can negate splash damage. I'd suggest closing these gaps or making them not block projectiles. May not seem obvious to you, but this should be a high priority to fix. Ex:

http://i.imgur.com/OED9w7h.jpg

I played this map during a pug and I thought it was really fun and it was semi-balanced, still some flanks needed to be fixed.

B4nny, reading your post makes me giggle a bit. A lot of what you said has been a part of the map before- perhaps it's time to go back to those.

Someone did suggest putting a door there in a PUG. It's probably worth a shot. There used to be an underneath route, but it was too long and too easy to get behind so it got taken out.

There used to be a door in the orange part of the wall that you boxed. We found that people could kritz in from yard and anything near second was dead no matter what. Since then, there has been some height advantage added from last to second, as well as second being raised relative to yard, so perhaps that door could be a better now.

I like the idea of moving the crane. I didn't want to get rid of the cranes because they add visual interest and that probably solves that issue. Also, surprise surprise again, there used to be a door right where you boxed from the upper part of the turbine room onto that patio. I received many complaints that people could "come from anywhere at mid" so for this version I removed it. Perhaps it should come back, although that makes 3.5 entrances on to mid, where most maps seem to have 2.5 or 3, from what I recall (the catwalk being a half entrance).

Yup, I'm aware of that. People have mentioned it before in earlier versions but it never wound up being an issue with gameplay so I never remembered to add it to the changelist. I will be making those areas act as a solid floor for alpha 11 certainly.

Once again everyone, thanks so much for the feedback. It's the only way the map can get better.

Hyce

Alrighty, alpha 11 is here. New screenshots:

Mid:

http://i.imgur.com/ZZ0RDoIh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/qnpXkeWh.jpg

New door from turbine (right side) to mid:

http://i.imgur.com/XTD37dXh.jpg

Yard, notice new door to balcony

http://i.imgur.com/Gy5We1mh.jpg

2nd, again, notice the new door to yard:

http://i.imgur.com/PZzUSnMh.jpg

Pantry (the left entrance goes to the new door to last)

http://i.imgur.com/O5OeRbuh.jpg

Here's the route from pantry to last:

http://i.imgur.com/gYHEI2W.jpg

Last:

http://i.imgur.com/vtJGcYPh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/cFmBWeRh.jpg

Keep the feedback coming. We'll probably PUG this later tonight or some time tomorrow, add me on steam if you're interested in joining in for the PUG (username is Hyce777).

Thanks!

http://i.imgur.com/yBKorz3.png

Does this lip need to be here? you don't need to jump on that ramp to rollout, but if there is no reason to have it there...

http://i.imgur.com/k2Jytuw.jpg

Some of these med packs need to either not be medium, or not exist at all. 3 medium packs easily within reach of each other could be too much defensive power for whoever controls them, especially when getting ready to push into last.

Infact, a lot of the health kits on the map seem to be medium kits that are relatively close to one another. Perhaps replace some of them with smalls or remove them?

The one on last especially should be a small kit. A medium kit on last tremendously adds to the beating that a defending team can take.

No, it doesn't. It's just that props (models pre-made by others, such as that container) don't line up with world geometry when using normal grid sizes. I can make that flush with a little bit of fudging, shouldn't be too hard. Added to change list.

You raise a good point. I will re-evaluate the healthkits in the map for sure. The one on last was a medium kit to aid pushing into last because it seemed to be hard to push into due to the significant height advantage. With the new way last is (it got re-modeled between a8 and a9 or a9 and a10), it may not be necessary anymore.

Also, I want to get a PUG going on this sucker tonight. If you're interested in a PUG, add me on steam. My username is Hyce777.

Thanks again everyone!

So we ended up pugging this. I dunno 'bout the other team but I know ours was laughing about the sheer number of medkits you could just randomly land on for a good few rounds. In all seriousness the volume of healthkits needs to be reduced.

Last caps almost instantly with one person on the point which everyone thought was kind of retarded. There were a lot more flanks and entrances to areas than we cared for, making it harder than usual to watch flanks sometimes. There's only one spawn from last so it's really easy to get to and spawncamp if you kill enough people while fighting/winning 2nd. There was a desire for the cap areas to be outlined. There were also complaints about the vertical variation (mid is gigantic, 2nd is a deep room, last is a fight uphill).

We liked the little ledge/awning on 2nd that let you shoot down onto 2nd because there were some good rollout opportunities with it, but it ended up being free minimal risk damage for defenders.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5gGty1Oh5w

Demoman rollout, will probably do the soldier one later.

Gr8stalin and Benroads, thanks for pugging the map. I appreciate all the feedback I can. I've added everything you both said to my changelist/"review this" list. A12 will probably be out within a couple days.

Also, Benroads' demo single sticky rollout is faster than my single sticky rollout, and leaves you with more health. If you don't mind, I'm going to add it to the main post.

Cheers,

Hyce.

VERSION ALPHA 12F IS OUT! We will likely be pugging this either tonight or tomorrow around 8:30 EST, add me on steam if you are interested (my username is Hyce777).The download is here: ALPHA 12
CHANGELOG:
a12 to a12f
-Fixed a wall sticking out causing issues
-Added two small healthkits per side after realizing badlands, granary, and process all have at least 5 healthkits, but most of them are small.

a11 to a12
-Fixed lip between ramp and container at last
-Re-evaluated healthkits and ammopacks; Went from 7 of both per side to 3 health per side and 2 ammo per side. Medium healthkit and small ammo on each side of mid, small healthkit in yard by the entrance to turbine, and a medium health and medium ammo in pantry by 2nd.
-Raised crane room's ceiling by a decent amount so that the upper level is halfway up the wall.
-Removed the containers orthagonal to the ground and replaced them with a slanted wall to keep cover there but prevent heavy classes/non-explosive jumping classes from getting on the awning at 2nd.
-Clipped stairs from pantry to last to prevent weird splash effects.
-Increased height of buildings between mid and yard to prevent spamming over the tops of the buildings.
-Made the area between upper crane room and catwalk larger.
-Outlined capture areas.
-Tripled last's cap time.
-Added a second spawn door, re-vamped spawn locations. Rollouts will now incorporate jumps to doors.

Edit: We pugged this tonight. Mixture of players, mostly from iron-silver UGC. Everyone enjoyed playing on it. It seemed like there might need to be one more healthkit added back somewhere to me. People were complaining about the map feeling a bit flanky with the doors added back in, but many said that this may be due to the fact it was a PUG and the teams weren't watching flanks just right and all that. I still would like an actual scrim go down on this. Another point brought up was the soldier rollouts- the demo rollout is so fast that the fast soldier rollout isn't valid because you arrive with little health and the demo is still there faster. I'm not sure if that's a bad thing, but it's something to consider.

Another issue brought up was respawn times. It seemed that a wipe at mid would yield a full team popping up out of forwards right as the other team is trying to push.

I had 99 medkits pickups that pug...

Played it with you last night (tagged as Plinkooo) and gave some of my thoughts in mumble. Posting them here so you don't forget:

-As a demo on mid I still feel really exposed. I can do the fast rollout and show up with low health, but getting the medpack is a death sentence. If I do a slower rollout, I'm just baiting my team.

-It's too easy to push into second. Doing a forward hold was the only way we could make any defense work. The entrances were spammable / stickable and we could see everything. This isn't the case if you're defending on point. You have a height disadvantage to every entrance, it's too easy to send flank classes around and have them come in behind you (without being seen), and there's no good spot for the medic to stand where he can't be simultaneously spammed from at least two entrances. Maybe make the point area a bit bigger. The point area seems too small / spammable to me, favoring explosive classes too much and making it hard not to be forced.

-Height distances are sometimes too drastic. For instance, pushing from second to last. Main is far below the point and also the furthest away, making it practically useless. Left side is closer, I wouldn't change it. Right side's entrance was too small and far away. The defending team can just put a gun behind the wall and it's near impossible to take down.

-Make a second viable demo rollout. Any other rollout causes almost as much damage but is significantly slower. Either make it so you show up to mid with more health, or at less of a time disadvantage.

Overall, very fun! I'd prioritize fixing rollouts.

Alpha 13 is out. Get ir here. We will definitely be pugging this soon.

Changelog:
A12-A13
-Moved blu resupply to match red side
-Optimized the map; added areaportals on all entrances between mid and yard, as well as all entrances to second, effectively splitting the map up into red last, red second, red yard, mid, blue yard, blue second, and blue last. When you are in one of these regions, regions 2 away won't be rendered- i.e. if you are at last, mid, 2nd on the other side of mid, and the other last won't be rendered, but your second will be. (You're welcome, THINTRI.)
-Increased the size of 2nd's capture area.
-Connected the balcony on 2nd to the highest entrance to last, allowing defenders to hold with height advantage and cover from the right entrance.
-Added a wall in front of the two doors at the balcony on second, making direct spam on the point difficult, as well as making the fastest route to the point harder to push from for balance.

Screenshot of the new second:

http://i.imgur.com/sAifOCr.jpg

Happy Halloween!
Hyce

I'll try to set up a PUG or so on this map I really like getting to play on new maps. Good work!