We have not made any final decisions yet. There may be a poll similar to the current HL poll to address maps and weapons.

Alright. Also, another thought, you guys should play the same maps as ESEA. More people will play UGC and take it seriously if it mirrors ESEA because people are already practicing for ESEA. I don't know if you guys would be willing to up the amount of matches per week.

Adding a more matches per week would be a terrible idea. Unlike what much of tftv thinks, the target audiences for ESEA and UGC (especially lower divisions) are different groups of people. Many of the more casual teams and players in UGC would leave because of time constraints if made to play 2 matches per week, especially if the default match time stays as rigid as it is now. This might not sound like a huge loss at first but most players who go on to higher level leagues like ESEA start out on these casual teams.

This is anecdotal, but when I asked some friends who play tf2 pubs often why they don't play comp tf2, the most common answer was that they didn't have enough free time to commit to it. Effectively doubling the necessary time commitment for entry-level players could cause our already wavering playerbase to shrink heavily.

Just wanted to clarify this section, otherwise Dashner's post is well said and very agreeable.

More than trying to satisfy a particular section of subscribers, A:R is an attempt to create a more appealing competitive format for the TF2 population at large. It's clear that 6s only reaches a small percentage of TF2 players and eXpanding that number has been a struggle for us. The popularity of Highlander has shown there is a market for viewers interested in seeing more of the 5 classes whose presence is minimized in the 6s format.

A:R is also an attempt to appeal to Valve. 6s can still be great without Valve support and maybe Valve can be brought around to support 6s, but based off of my several trips up to Valve I feel like they really want to see a competitive format with all of their weapons in play. The lack of in-game systems for 6s is a huge hindrance for the community, but we've obviously come a long way without them.

This Vlog wasn't me trying to argue that A:R is superior to 6s in all ways, just trying to state that I feel the need to focus on developing A:R/PBL over other community organizing efforts. I've been on self-imposed eXile from covering ESEA 6s, which is a whole 'nother topic, but would cover UGC 6s if I had more time available.

Time is a big factor for me. I've been wanting to do this full-time for 5 years and throughout the entire history of eXtv my availability has been a challenge. PBL might be able to secure that for me within 3-6 months. As Dashner said PBL is still looking at working with 6s. If I'm full-time then there definitely is the possibility I would have some spare time that could go to casting 6s outside PBL or working on tutorial videos.

I'm not ready to quit TF2, but that is probably an eventuality for eXtv as an organization as we are an eSports media production company. I hope if we ever have to leave TF2 it's for TF3.

I understand people doubt A:R but I very much believe in it's potential to have a major positive impact for the TF2 community at large. We'll see.

<3

That may not be your intent, but to quote PBL Gizmo from a mumble conversation we had

I don't know if this is something I was supposed to share or if it was more than an off-hand comment but honestly I don't really care at this point.

The goal of pbl is to make a profit off this community. I would be totally okay with that if they weren't willing to destroy the community in order to do that, but they are. They don't care about this community any more than they need to in order to make a profit in the long run, and like I said that would be fine if they weren't willing to get rid of the current community. But they are. Sorry but that needed to be shared.

I really do hope you manage to get this working for you though extine. It would be great if you could do tf2 full time, and people like Dashner definitely deserve a paycheck every now and again. I am just sharing the other side of the viewpoint in hopes that you better understand where we're coming from.

Related post: An Arena:Respawn event/tournament is on the teamfortress.com news page.

http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=15402

Thoughts?

They do this for lans and stuff to. It really doesn't mean anything, barely anyone knows that's a thing.

It appeals to pub players so seems completely reasonable to me that they would post it on the official site. http://teamfortress.com isn't meant to appeal to competitive players and the news section really shouldn't be used as an indicator of what our community should care about imo.

This is true, however, I really do not think that the format is the reason for this failure to connect. Honestly, there has been a lot of claiming that 6s is somehow inherently flawed, but aside from "valve doesn't like it" (which I will get to in a moment), I have never really seen a compelling argument for why that is true.

So what we are left with is the fact that 6s only reaches a small percentage of TF2 players. Is the problem really a format that is hard to understand and get into? Competitive 6s is NOT hard to understand. Compared to the sheer complexity of other games and game types, we actually have a relatively simple set of rules that evolves into the complex and varied scene we see. Our problem has always been and will always be a marketing one.

You say that expanding those numbers has always been a struggle, but for the past few years, a lot of extv efforts have gone into HL and other formats, most recently A:R. Is spreading out the ability to reach a wider audience by fracturing the community even further really going to expand the number of people watching this game? Why not put the work and money that would go into supporting A:R into expanding 6s and reaching a wider audience that way?

You say that A:R is an attempt to make a more appealing format, which is a noble goal I guess. The reality is however, that literally everyone that has tried it has told you that A:R is not good for competition, is gimmicky, fun as a distraction but little else. If you believe that 6s is not the way forward, that is fine. But you have all your work ahead of you to find a format that is going to take this nearly decade old game to the big leagues.

I would make a great argument that the presence of these classes is anything but minimized. On most professional level casts, when a player switches out to spy or sniper, there is a lot of excitement and fervor. Is enigma going to get that backcap? Is clockwork going to get the clutch med pick and save the round? When Mackey was playing, that was basically his entire shtick, though he was a competent player in his own right.

You played 6s, you are knowledgeable on 6s so you know that they aren't viable, but that isn't really your argument.

Years ago I remember there being many community meetings about highlander. What role should it play? To what extent should we, as a competitive community united by our love of the game, support this format? I remember Free, a well spoken intelligent young man arguing vehemently in favor of this new format. I also remember that one of the biggest arguments in favor of Highlander was that it could be a proving ground, an intermediary twilight zone between the circles of hell that are pubs and the enlightened arena of 6s. It has since grown into far greater popularity than anyone had ever anticipated.

But my experience with highlander players has not been that they hate that 6s doesn't have pyros and spies 24/7. Some people want to play those classes and nothing but those classes /and they are having a fine time in highlander/. Those that are interested in trying 6s will fit into a role they like and work at that.

I think the popularity of highlander is testimony to the power of marketing and low barriers of entry. Highlander does a great job of attracting new talent from the casual pub crowd, demanding very little of their time, and getting them playing immediately. While I think it is easier to market, I do not think there is anything special about the highlander approach and it can be applied to 6s as well. The newbie mix program, more access to mentors, better outreach (especially to Highlander and UGC 6s players) and more aggressive stream advertising with better, more accessible casting options will grow this community. These are all things that you, PBL, and the community at large can work together on. These are all things that DO NOT REQUIRE A:R.

You argued against your entire premise right here. You want to appeal to Valve. But you admit that 6s can (and I would argue is) great without Valve support. You acknowledge that we have done AMAZING things in this community, and indeed you have been there for many of those great accomplishments, from the first iseries with american players to GXL, the most successful non-professional TF2 lan ever. So what more do you want?

You have been talking about items to support the players, possibly new skins for classes, hats or misc items in support of froyotech etc. However, this was always centered around the idea of getting players to LAN, maybe paying for the work that goes into the background of the tournaments. I think this is a poor source of money into the game. We have been getting our players to and from LAN events for years now, all on our own. Two or three times a year, the community takes out their wallets and puts money on the table to see their favorite players compete at the highest level. We don't always cover all the money, and the invite teams have paid large sums of money out of pocket over the years as well, but we do a pretty damn good job.

Our biggest tournament's prize pot doesn't come from items. ESEA gets their prize pot from us as well, through league fees.

As for paying the behind the scenes, that is always going to be a bit harder, and to a certain extent, a labor of love. True, the community helps get Airon and other key members of the eXtv crew around, but even for the bigger games, a lot of these casters and producers barely make a living, if at all. Only in the biggest games, with the best support at the top level do people really start making living wages. I want to see you make the money you deserve Jeff. I want to see you successful because you have put inordinate amounts of time, energy, effort and money into this game and your organization. But if you think TF2 is going to make you an international superstar caster/producer and if you think that you can get TF2 to the level of DOTA or CS:GO, then I hate to say it man, but you have the wrong ass game.

Valve support, if we get it, is going to be minimal at best. They just don't have any real interest or reason to care. Even if we fit there meta perfectly, do everything they ask, it won't help. You are clinging to the hope provided by a couple meetings with a developer that doesn't even work on TF2 anymore from years ago. All we are ever going to have is our brothers and sisters who play the game right along side us.

This past year, we had three ESEA LANs, an iSeries with teams from THREE CONTINENTS, GXL and CEVO@GXL. That is 6 major tournaments, more than any other year. '15 may not be /as/ big, but it will certainly still be a growth year. I don't know how anyone can look at the viewer numbers, attendance, prize pools, league signups and active playerbase and say, with sincerity, that this game is dead or dying. Hell, it was looking dire for a few days with ESEA, but we rallied and have nearly 60 open teams, ready and waiting to play this game.

(continued next post)

No, but your vlog does seem to shine light onto the way you think of A:R and 6s, and it is that stunning lack of insight that the community is latching on to and reacting negatively to. Again it seems that you and PBL have latched on to this, honestly beta software level experience, plugin that has some really cool ideas and implementation, but ultimately falls short on the overall experience. It seems curious to put your eggs in that basket when there is a proven format (hell, even highlander!) that has held competitive interest for nearly a decade. It just seems out of touch.

Your beef with ESEA is completely valid, what they did to you and eXtelevision over the years is really scummy when all you were trying to do was get fair compensation for work. I fully understand that (hell, for some of those broadcasts, it would have meant some compensation for me personally). However, it is still the only place that really good competition in 6s happens in North America. UGC 6s is a joke unfortunately, although it looks like a change in leadership might change that dynamic.

Ultimately though, what I see is a mixture of misguided optimism and desperation to move on from 6s as a format with none of the ground work laid or arguments made for why that should be done anyway.

Good. Earn that paycheck, do great things for gaming, help turn PBL into something positive for TF2. But I still see this lingering question that you have been unable to answer. Why A:R. This is the entire premise of my contention with your video. So far, I have seen no compelling reason to believe that this new format, or any new format, would be in any way beneficial to competitive tf2 and acceptance of competitive tf2. You literally have none of the foundation laid for your argument.

Valve acceptance of the new format isn't assured, their support of the format competitively dubiously claimed without actual support or word from valve. Their support, if it is anything, is almost assuredly going to be EXTREMELY minimal and unlikely to make it worth the fracturing of the community that a third supported format WILL create.

The format itself has been attacked by all of the third parties that have played it, from the top level players giving it a go, to the other community members, some of whom have close ties and relationships with you and your organization (i.e. Dashner). They claim it is a good distraction, but ultimately lacks competitive value or interesting tactics. The changes feel gimmicky and the plugin is (or was, not sure if it has been fully fixed) buggy and the gameplay decisions central to the plugin sometimes make little to no sense. This is the DIRECT feedback given by several people on this format.

So in addition to not having a compelling reason to change, we have a compelling reason /not/ to change at all.

I want you and PBL to be successful, I want to see bigger and better things for this game, but to discard the importance of 6s is to me, the height of ignorance about how this can best be done. If PBL is still looking at working with 6s, I urge them to do so over A:R, if not to the complete exclusion of A:R as a format.

haha tl;dr maybe you should spend more time working on your surfs instead of typing up nerd essays who does that

I like your intent, but you are trying to "save TF2" by changing the competitive format entirely based on opinions of less than five people. You have this zealous campaign for A:R, and because you have a podium (your YouTube channel and PBL), I really think it's almost detrimental. We have spent so long making TF2 what it is. Entirely throwing all of that away to try something new with absolutely zero evidence that it would even remotely perform similar is really mind-boggling.

What are we gonna do if it doesn't work? Just pretend it never happened? Divide the community into two different gametypes, further tearing us apart from playing something in unison? Go back to 6s while confusing the fuck out of players who are trying to get into the competitive scene?

I know you're ambitious, and I respect that. However, I really think you're going about this the wrong way.

And that's what I fear the most. I really fear that you're going to attempt to make A:R into something (through PBL or eXtv or however else) when the majority of the community is not interested in doing this. I really fear that this kind of move might cause irreversible damage to the competitive scene.

TF2 competitive will be dead before TF.TV abandons traditional 6v6 in any form.