https://discord.com/invite/9uDQNcs
#ask-questions
https://www.teamfortress.tv/forum/3/mentoring

already in both and they sent me here :D

tf2 is an old game with a tired and very developed "training" base. The resources to improve in the fastest of ways (overall gamesense and map/positioning) have been rehashed and tweaked to the small trends over the years that are eventually hit upon again. example: shotgun resurgence after a looong while of med speed/gb meta.

The only way to affirm and ensure you retained knowledge is to put them to use. Newbie mixes are still around and low level pug groups are much more accessible than i have ever remember them being thanks to pugs.tf and once you are friends with a few consistent puggers you have a very reliable supply of varying (albiet still new-friendly) pugs.

Your own drive to train and grind is what limits your resources to improve, just being consistent gets your foot in the door and discipline brings the rest through.

edit: sorry kinda buzzed and missed the point. finding a mentor in game is much alike in real life. They appreciate your thirst and drive to improve, you learn from their experience of seeing how the (similar) situation played out from their time. You're very unlikely to find a mentor/coach for hockey in a dive bar (pubs); they might frequent or pop in here and there but its not the best place to look for it. Out closer (pugs, these forums, people who do comp already) to the rink (already on a team/trying out, actually ingame) will always be your best bet.

the last time I seriously played or put time into reviewing was back in 2014/15 and while I can be very specific with how a certain hold or push will likely turn out; I cannot say as to individual responses from classes/positions. Mechanics have had their standard pushed so hard theres very little to introduce, but recognition is not the same as recalling and fully understanding the concepts behind them.

people often try to find the 'best' mentor they can in hopes that they will be spoon fed all the information they need to know to improve at the game but unfortunately it doesn't really work like that, at a certain point you have to look at your own mistakes and learn on your own

as others have said there are so many good resources out there at this point that you can easily get the basic fundamentals down and work on specific set plays and coordination with your team, a lot of plays that invite mentors may tell you to do won't even work on a lower level team because of the lack of coordination

edit: another point to understand is: there's no money in this game, in all honesty nobody wants to spectate your open level scrims every night and give you tips, why rely on someone else's commentary anyways? only you can find what works best for you and your team, you can't rely on someone else to make you improve

people ask me to mentor them. i give them a demo review then they usually never message me again. idk if i gave shitty feedback or they just got bored but like usually 1/4 times i attempt to mentor someone they just flake so i just tell people i dont mentor anymore.

there is little incentive to actively seek out mentees but, in my experience, most players are happy to help, even flattered, if you just asked for a demo review.

Download match demos + watch invite player streams. For the top tier experience, watch a VOD at the same time as the demo to hear comms while switching POVs.

agree to both of these.

to add to bears comment, a lot of newcomer/am/IM/Main players refuse to do demo reviews with anyone who isn't top 2 advanced/invite. So a big issue is that all those players get filled up on all the demos they want to do, and most of the mid-advanced plus players arent actively looking. I've added newcomer-main players off of their tftv looking for mentor threads, and they say they only want an invite mentor. anyone mid advanced plus is going to be able to give you a laundry list of improvements, and those people probably have more time, which means more dedicated time to you as a mentee. the pool of available and eligible mentors is a lot bigger than most people think, you just have to be willing to ask the right people.

I don't think that some Main player who makes a post asking for someone to help mentor him will deny help coming from someone like me and or bear who have consistently placed 3rd in invite for well over 2 years+ now. The problem is not finding the right person to ask to mentor its the person being able to plan and mark dates when they wanna watch demos and consistently show up to demo reviews. Sorry but I'm not actively searching for someone to teach to play TF2 after people just ask me to teach them then just stop caring 5 days later.

I do agree however that most mid advanced players have the time to work with a invite player to get a ton better if they just ask. They need to ask the right person. I've even been offered money to do this for people for a whole season and respectfully declined due to past cases.

I think you completely misunderstood what I posted, I'm very confused.

I think Slice is saying lower level players should consider seeking mentors below invite level as those players still have a lot to offer as mentors, nothing about it being the fault of invite players.

He also didn't talk about adv players looking for mentors, although you're probably right about the second part anyways.

I just want to mention this as whilst this doesn't have much to do with finding a mentor, it has a lot to do with keeping the mentor and getting as much out of them as you can

I have a friend who's just freaky good at most games he picks up. He hit top 1000 in his region in Dota, and was GM in overwatch. He's just started playing tf2 and is improving at a stupid fast rate, and I've finally realised why he gets so good. In each game he's messaged around discords and shit trying to contact high level players, just to ask some questions. But the questions he asks aren't basic "what do i do on snakewater mid as demo" kind of questions. He's actively watched high level demos, and then compared them to his own demos. He takes as much info as he can from them, and then when there are concepts he doesn't understand he finds a great way to verbalise them and then asks questions. He's asked questions about concepts to me that I innately understood, but I realised I'd never actually put them into words before.
Basically my point is when you're looking for a mentor/when you finally get one, it's honestly a waste of time for both of you if you just expect them to give you the answers you're looking for, when the questions you have are insanely broad. When you're putting in the work on your own and then asking questions that show you actually have paid attention to your own gameplay faults, mentors are far usually far more engaged in working with you. It feels way better for someone to actually tap into a deep knowledgebase instead of just asking for surface level information.

i can mentor you

as one of the admins that has to harass literally everyone i've ever played with in tf2 on fridays for newbie mixes

yes

people would generally rather play the game than teach. some of us prefer to teach over playing, but i don't blame anyone that's been around for a while for not wanting to teach kids about the hat game

newbie.tf discord / NA 6v6 Newbie Mix (both run by the same folks) are the best places for new players. We do demo review nights every once in a while in the discord, and playing in newbie mixes is still the best way to improve at the game

I think mentors are too common now if anything. Everyone I’ve talked to from whatever shit pugs or teams I’ve rung for has gone and found a mentor seemingly just so they can namedrop them to avoid criticism (“yea I know that’s an issue but I’ve been working with my [two divs above mine] mentor on it”/“actually my [two divs above mine] mentor told me it was smart to do that”/etc)

It seems like 95% of people with “mentors” don’t improve at all from it and don’t understand what the point of it is. They just want to get sandblast to waste his time reviewing their demo so they can say they’re getting mentored by an invite scout. I also don’t think anyone who started playing after 2016 actually knows how to just watch their own demos.

i think zx37 is onto something

A lot of people look for mentoring in hope that the mentor will look at their play and say "yeah, nothing you coulda done, way better than your div". In reality most advice high level players give (and rightfully slow) is:

-Remember the basics, that position on that midfight where you held on low ground instead of contest high ground wasn't good, try to maintain a good pos, and keep in mind where your team is.

-Work on mechanics, mge/jump maps are nice and dm servers too. Don't forget to play pugs/lobbies/mixes, best way to improve is to play the game. Try to fit extra 6s into non-scrim times.

-Pick one thing in a scrim and hyper focus on it constantly until it becomes a habit. Once it's a habit, work on the next thing, then the next.

-Put in the effort and you will be rewarded.

Then you review them 4 weeks later, having had 20 hours of good practice time and another 20 of moderate practice (at least) and there is no difference in play. Usually at this point, I tell people to not come back to me until they can demonstrate improvement in their gameplay by reviewing their own demo in front of me, since they don't need my help anymore, told them all I can.

There are also a few people who still do demo review and give solid advice. Seeds gives possibly the best medic advice for mid level players on how to play the class and he is happy to go through any demo pretty much. Not many people go on peoples streams and ask them stuff, most players are happy to answer. Counou streams a ton, dmoule is in every twitch chat ever, b4nny and habib and sandblast stream a ton too. High level players lurk in every chat ever and are usually happy to chime in.

tl:dr only actual time you should be mentored is if you really do not know what to do better. If you play bad but know why, should just work on your own play first.

imo at the point you understand the flow of 6’s and what your role is in most situations, the game is largely mechanics. I find watching demos (of myself and people who’ve reached out to me), a lot of scenarios are like “well that play works fine if you hit those shots” or “you couldve surfed to make more out of your health there”, something to that effect. Maybe I’m biased bcus I’m a roamer player usually helping soldiers but ye once you have the gist of what a smart 6’s player wants to do and why, it comes down to things you can’t help 1 on 1 with a mentor (like coordination, comms, mechanics, etc)

that being said idk what level you’re at or what your understanding of 6s is like, my recommendation tho would be watching stvs of scrims/matches of ppl above your div. Maybe not top invite too because some of what you’ll see just isn’t the same as your div, but still is a good way to learn common positions, ideal pushes for certain scenarios, that sorta thing

tbh me and chunkey have talked about this and after like top open level (or whatever the rgl equivalent is) demo and map reviews cap out of their usefulness and are pretty pointless and a waste of everyones time

at that point it just becomes about refining how tf you play cuz imo im sick of staring at 45 minute demoman povs and ree'ing about wasteful ammo as well as sticky placement as well as positioning, all of which ik i have problems with cuz im bad but yeah