Or for the sake of argument, do prefer you prefer agressive soldiers with gunboats? How often do you see your pocket switch up to shotgun on last? Anything defensive for that matter, esp longer last holds. With that situation in mind, we see offclassing, heavy / level 3 builds, sometimes a sniper hoping to stuff a uber push. Sometimes you get the old split second situation with a pyro trying to counter a uber.
Honestly it seems like you don’t see shotgun soldiers in play even on situational stuff. The class itself used to be such a primary thing, but of course after the meta changed and a you could drag a medic with a scout at top speed, the meta itself sped up.
So if I had to sum up the situation, do you think shotgun soldier as any place in 6s these days? Situational or not, also curious to thoughts on it in highlander. For a brief time I remember seeing it happen, after the scout / medic speed buff.
Or for the sake of argument, do prefer you prefer agressive soldiers with gunboats? How often do you see your pocket switch up to shotgun on last? Anything defensive for that matter, esp longer last holds. With that situation in mind, we see offclassing, heavy / level 3 builds, sometimes a sniper hoping to stuff a uber push. Sometimes you get the old split second situation with a pyro trying to counter a uber.
Honestly it seems like you don’t see shotgun soldiers in play even on situational stuff. The class itself used to be such a primary thing, but of course after the meta changed and a you could drag a medic with a scout at top speed, the meta itself sped up.
So if I had to sum up the situation, do you think shotgun soldier as any place in 6s these days? Situational or not, also curious to thoughts on it in highlander. For a brief time I remember seeing it happen, after the scout / medic speed buff.
Another thing I wonder, what would happen if a team practiced old ways, shotgun pocket focused vs scout pocket? DM ALONE is entirely different these days. I know the spread on the soldier shotgun isn’t close, hell not even damage wise, but damn I wonder what a team that slowed it down a bit (not as fun, of course not nearly as aggressive) vs a team with a pocket scout leading uber pushes. I honestly think 4 rockets, let’s even say 2 of 4 are directs, then if still alive, a full clip into a team, say the average push, even a mid fight, combo plus 2, maybe 3 still alive? When I say a full clip, I mean a solid shotgun follow up.
It feels like in the end a pocket soldier can do more damage in a fight with a secondary?
I honestly want to know the damage numbers compared to pocket scout fights, what would honestly add up more.
Another thing I wonder, what would happen if a team practiced old ways, shotgun pocket focused vs scout pocket? DM ALONE is entirely different these days. I know the spread on the soldier shotgun isn’t close, hell not even damage wise, but damn I wonder what a team that slowed it down a bit (not as fun, of course not nearly as aggressive) vs a team with a pocket scout leading uber pushes. I honestly think 4 rockets, let’s even say 2 of 4 are directs, then if still alive, a full clip into a team, say the average push, even a mid fight, combo plus 2, maybe 3 still alive? When I say a full clip, I mean a solid shotgun follow up.
It feels like in the end a pocket soldier can do more damage in a fight with a secondary?
I honestly want to know the damage numbers compared to pocket scout fights, what would honestly add up more.
There's definitely more room for shotgun pocket to be run but the vast majority of the time not having gunboats is just too crippling. Jumping to packs and ending up with net positive health is much harder to do, whenever you die it takes you longer to get back into position, and your shotgun is going to be irrelevant in a ton of fights but the extra damage you take from jumping always will be. It would be interesting to see more teams try ubering shotgun soldiers as I could see it being really good on pushes where you can pop relatively close to where theyre holding, but that has the same issue changing items has always had in tf2.i feel ya tho, I miss juggernaut pocket soldiers
There's definitely more room for shotgun pocket to be run but the vast majority of the time not having gunboats is just too crippling. Jumping to packs and ending up with net positive health is much harder to do, whenever you die it takes you longer to get back into position, and your shotgun is going to be irrelevant in a ton of fights but the extra damage you take from jumping always will be. It would be interesting to see more teams try ubering shotgun soldiers as I could see it being really good on pushes where you can pop relatively close to where theyre holding, but that has the same issue changing items has always had in tf2.i feel ya tho, I miss juggernaut pocket soldiers
Effectiveness will vary depending on division / skill level
Generally Speaking:
Invite and Advanced: I would say shotty more effective overall than gunboats for defending last only. Dmg potential > jumping around. In any other situation, mobility is always going to be superior. (some soldiers can make this work but not many I'd say)
Main and below: Shotgun "should" be superior in mostly every situation due to teams being slower and much less coordinated. Most Main matches involve a lot of chaos fights where a shotgun would be ideal after you use all 4 rockets.
I said "should by superior" because for shotgun to work you need to have good aim. If you are in Main and below you likely don't have the required aim to make shotgun effective in the first place or you would be in advanced.
Effectiveness will vary depending on division / skill level
Generally Speaking:
Invite and Advanced: I would say shotty more effective overall than gunboats for defending last only. Dmg potential > jumping around. In any other situation, mobility is always going to be superior. (some soldiers can make this work but not many I'd say)
Main and below: Shotgun "should" be superior in mostly every situation due to teams being slower and much less coordinated. Most Main matches involve a lot of chaos fights where a shotgun would be ideal after you use all 4 rockets.
I said "should by superior" because for shotgun to work you need to have good aim. If you are in Main and below you likely don't have the required aim to make shotgun effective in the first place or you would be in advanced.
SpaceCadetInvite and Advanced: I would say shotty more effective overall than gunboats for defending last only. Dmg potential > jumping around.
gunboats is def better than shotty on last, being able to jump around to block cap on last holds is more important than your damage output especially if the other team has small ad. at that point both of your soldiers are just stalling the point so your med can get uber.
[quote=SpaceCadet]Invite and Advanced: I would say shotty more effective overall than gunboats for defending last only. Dmg potential > jumping around. [/quote]
gunboats is def better than shotty on last, being able to jump around to block cap on last holds is more important than your damage output especially if the other team has small ad. at that point both of your soldiers are just stalling the point so your med can get uber.
SOOOOOAPYMEISTERSpaceCadetInvite and Advanced: I would say shotty more effective overall than gunboats for defending last only. Dmg potential > jumping around.
gunboats is def better than shotty on last, being able to jump around to block cap on last holds is more important than your damage output especially if the other team has small ad. at that point both of your soldiers are just stalling the point so your med can get uber.
It is situational of course. There are more situations/scenarios like this where it would be reverse which is why I used the words "generally speaking".
[quote=SOOOOOAPYMEISTER][quote=SpaceCadet]Invite and Advanced: I would say shotty more effective overall than gunboats for defending last only. Dmg potential > jumping around. [/quote]
gunboats is def better than shotty on last, being able to jump around to block cap on last holds is more important than your damage output especially if the other team has small ad. at that point both of your soldiers are just stalling the point so your med can get uber.[/quote]
It is situational of course. There are more situations/scenarios like this where it would be reverse which is why I used the words "generally speaking".
Yes. It’s the only thing holding back the domination of pyro meta
Yes. It’s the only thing holding back the domination of pyro meta
SOOOOOAPYMEISTERSpaceCadetInvite and Advanced: I would say shotty more effective overall than gunboats for defending last only. Dmg potential > jumping around.
gunboats is def better than shotty on last, being able to jump around to block cap on last holds is more important than your damage output especially if the other team has small ad. at that point both of your soldiers are just stalling the point so your med can get uber.
I get all of that, being able to hustle positions, help a scout close to opening at last, but when it comes to last, what’s wrong with getting tanky? And of course if shotgun pocket is worthwhile, what’s the damage difference between a heavy switch up? Curious to see numbers, what is the average output? Feels silly to suggest shotgun pocket in any situation because god knows what a scout can do, but let’s say if we treat pocket soldier as a damage focused class; how much can two scouts meech from that? I also know wonder what’s better, between reload speeds, is it better to reload a rocket or kill a weak scout, or hell a medic? Does that stand alone cheap shot hustle better? I honestly wonder what is better with that reload speed difference, how much can that change fights?
For the record. When talking about soldier as a damage focused class, not a pick class while roaming. Not some stand alone hustle, I’m talking serious damage between all 6. Peppering everything for scouts to work on.
[quote=SOOOOOAPYMEISTER][quote=SpaceCadet]Invite and Advanced: I would say shotty more effective overall than gunboats for defending last only. Dmg potential > jumping around. [/quote]
gunboats is def better than shotty on last, being able to jump around to block cap on last holds is more important than your damage output especially if the other team has small ad. at that point both of your soldiers are just stalling the point so your med can get uber.[/quote]
I get all of that, being able to hustle positions, help a scout close to opening at last, but when it comes to last, what’s wrong with getting tanky? And of course if shotgun pocket is worthwhile, what’s the damage difference between a heavy switch up? Curious to see numbers, what is the average output? Feels silly to suggest shotgun pocket in any situation because god knows what a scout can do, but let’s say if we treat pocket soldier as a damage focused class; how much can two scouts meech from that? I also know wonder what’s better, between reload speeds, is it better to reload a rocket or kill a weak scout, or hell a medic? Does that stand alone cheap shot hustle better? I honestly wonder what is better with that reload speed difference, how much can that change fights?
For the record. When talking about soldier as a damage focused class, not a pick class while roaming. Not some stand alone hustle, I’m talking serious damage between all 6. Peppering everything for scouts to work on.
no ones stopping you but a lot of people have asked those same questions and tried things out and theres a reason shotgun isnt used
no ones stopping you but a lot of people have asked those same questions and tried things out and theres a reason shotgun isnt used
Brockwhat's wrong with getting tanky?
you just gotta remember that a soldier who is not jumping is a soldier who is incredibly easy to focus down and kill. imagine playing MGE against juanpablo2006 and he cannot rocket jump so he sits there waddling at you. you direct him 3 times and he dies. scale that up to a team fight with competent players, you can maybe get like a rocket or two off before you are focused by 3 people who deal 300 damage to you in less than 2 seconds. maybe 4 seconds if you surf a projectile or something like that idk. you are essentially letting the enemy team walk all over you if your goal is to "get tanked" and do as much damage as possible.
people talk about sighguy shotgun pocket being "baity" but thats literally the optimal way to play soldier with a shotgun in 6s as the meta stands today. you get 300, your team busts thru the doorway for you, you waddle thru or do 1 rocket jump for 50 damage and try to kill the people focusing your team. you cannot close gaps effectively with a shotgun, you cannot draw eyes effectively with a shotgun.
the shotgun gives you lots of ammo to shoot guys with, yeah, but if your goal is to get tanked and deal as much damage as possible, you simply dont have enough time to use all 10 of your shots before you get focused for 350 damage, and your medic cant afford to be forward tanking such a non-mobile target.
[quote=Brock]what's wrong with getting tanky?[/quote]
you just gotta remember that a soldier who is not jumping is a soldier who is incredibly easy to focus down and kill. imagine playing MGE against juanpablo2006 and he cannot rocket jump so he sits there waddling at you. you direct him 3 times and he dies. scale that up to a team fight with competent players, you can maybe get like a rocket or two off before you are focused by 3 people who deal 300 damage to you in less than 2 seconds. maybe 4 seconds if you surf a projectile or something like that idk. you are essentially letting the enemy team walk all over you if your goal is to "get tanked" and do as much damage as possible.
people talk about sighguy shotgun pocket being "baity" but thats literally the optimal way to play soldier with a shotgun in 6s as the meta stands today. you get 300, your team busts thru the doorway for you, you waddle thru or do 1 rocket jump for 50 damage and try to kill the people focusing your team. you cannot close gaps effectively with a shotgun, you cannot draw eyes effectively with a shotgun.
the shotgun gives you lots of ammo to shoot guys with, yeah, but if your goal is to get tanked and deal as much damage as possible, you simply dont have enough time to use all 10 of your shots before you get focused for 350 damage, and your medic cant afford to be forward tanking such a non-mobile target.