double post

I'm pretty sure that dropping the 8th place team to IM and moving the winner up is what would happen in a stable system. However, there never has been (and likely never will be) a season where one or more teams don't break up during or after the season, so the IM winner will just continue to move up into one of the free spots.

The question is if it's better to fill the additional spots with "good" teams that formed in the offseason or limit it to teams that played the previous IM season. You can extol the virtues of team stability and cheer on the guys who have played together for seasons with no "big names" all you want, but I would be wary about making a hard ruling that you must play a roster from open to IM to invite.

As other people have said, it's harder to stay together as a team if you lose all your games, and I would put no more faith in most top IM teams (with some exceptions) sticking together in invite than I would put in reforming invite pugs. You also have to consider the level of competition; even if you claim that an IM roster moving up will have more stability than an invite pug, often times the invite pug will simply be much better than the IM team has any hope of being. Additionally, while the intent of the rule may be to make the players who would be in these invite pugs make the same team in a lower league and move up, hopefully liking each other enough after a season to stick it out longer, this won't happen in practice (and if it did, the state of the lower divisions would be pretty sad for that season). All that you will see is borderline roster hijacks or players floating around as ringers/leaving the game. Furthermore, no team is any more immune to real life getting too busy for some of its players and causing them roster trouble. TF2 is not (and will never be) the kind of game where you can dedicate 8+ hours a day like "real" esports and make a living. Everyone has a day job, thus, TF2 always takes second place, even for top players.

Finally, the last thing that ESEA needs is more automated directives where the admins throw their hands up in the air and say "it's the system, I can't do anything about your dead team/the blatantly invite team in IM/the guaranteed 0-16 IM team in invite". I'd much prefer it if the league was on the whole less consistent, but more like interacting with a reasonable human rather than a machine. Making decisions about where teams should play should be, in my opinion, a completely subjective process on a per-season/per-team basis, with as few hard-and-fast rules governing it as possible.

Why do we have predetermined schedules in invite?

Why can't it be based off rankings? A 7th placed team shouldn't have to play a 1st place team in back to back weeks (etc.)

Doesn't open/IM and highlander have this already?

I see a lot of people saying the top level IM teams are still shit compared to IN, but they are never going to raise a skill level when they keep playing the same teams they beat all the time. The top two IM teams are 12-2 and 11-2. They face almost no competition in that bracket. Moving them up would give them the chance to hone their skill into that level or plateau and get knocked back down.

Really have to disagree with you on this one. I don't think there's anything wrong with picking up a player with potential. I don't think anyone can deny how drastically craig has improved over his first season of invite. I'd rather play with players that I actually LIKE playing with and will take the game seriously. As much as I'd like to think the people that have been playing "forever" should deserve an invite opportunity more, plenty of players meet a skill plateau and just cannot climb over it.

EDIT: You can't say a player like craig falls in line with the "has-been" players who don't take the game seriously. He watched nearly every lan demo before the season started and asked questions/looked for criticisms... He showed up every day for scrims and tried his best in matches.

The positive side of predetermined schedules is that it makes the playoff race more fair -- a better team could get edged out of playoffs by a worse team due to a harder schedule (though with 8 teams/16 games, you still have 2 random teams you play 3 times, so even predetermined schedules have different strengths).

The obvious plus of rank-based scheduling is that you get closer games. Probably the best solution would be to use rank-based scheduling and determine rankings by a strength-of-schedule measure rather than pure W/L.

one day...

What if at the end of every season the top IM teams play the low IN teams. If the IM team can win, they are guaranteed a spot in IN the next season regardless of other teams forming/breaking up.

Obviously it wouldn't do much good this season, but in the future...

While I agree with most of your points Sigma I think you're overlooking one of mine. The Open to Invite ruling would ingrain a sense of pride in your accomplishment. People won't care about going 0-16 in invite (and if this rule were to go live I doubt that team would exist) because just being in invite is enough.

You can work, you can school but at the end of the day you're still invite level at TF2! It's sad that we don't even hold that in high regard whatsoever. I'll be playing in a random pub and people will be like "Woah is that the real ruwin?" That feels great, honestly. To know that people who perhaps don't play competitive at all are star-struck when they see an invite player. PEOPLE CARE THAT YOU'RE IN INVITE. GO PUB, GO PLAY WITH THE COMMUNITY-- IT MATTERS. I repeat, those in invite flunking out right now, people care that you're good and they look up to you (EVEN IF YOU'RE NOT THE NUMBER ONE TEAM). Have some pride in what you've accomplished in your hobby because there are many who froth at the mouth at the prospect of one day playing in invite. Don't take it for granted.

That's my two cents take it or leave it but preferably take it.

I remember ruwin pubstomping my 2nd favorite arena server

I enjoyed it

Oh, you're definitely right. If the likes of these Invite teams die, certainly IM teams will die if they ever get moved up. After all, you're so much better than them in every way certainly they would fail long before the point at which your team did.

Every IM team that is poised to make the jump into invite has been playing together in some form for over 3 seasons. As they have fought to become the best in the IM division, so too will they fight in Invite.

Allowing Invite pugs to constantly take the remaining Invite spots from legitimate teams who have been putting in the effort only puts up more barriers between everyone else and the league that they all work towards a spot in.

EDIT: and to lansky...

Every team at the top of IM has potential... In fact probably everything you said could also apply to the top IM teams. The only difference being that instead of dying when they have no chance to make LAN they might take simply being in the best division in the world as an opportunity to grow their game instead of simply an opportunity to attend LAN.

But that was my first favorite arena server. :(

I agree. I definitely idolize most of the players in Invite at least somewhat, and definitely any time any invite player does anything that interacts with the open or lower comp community is really awesome, and keeps the community interested and dedicated. Playing pugs, newbie mixes, pubs, etc, are all awesome for people who follow comp but just aren't there yet skillwise or commitmentwise to be in higher level comp.

This is awesome, and very true. I've had invite players ring on my team, other high level players I've randomly met in pubs or lobbies or whatever. It's great to see them around, and it's always good to see if I can learn a thing or two from them while they're in the same server as me.

I remember playing against Ruwin in a shoutcast and when they went to vent, he pretended to sound like a girl. I'm pretty sure the other team did not know he was a dude and was under the impression that is was ruwin's sister.

It will pretty much all come down to how many new "invite" teams we let into invite compared to how many IM rosters we allow into invite. I guarantee the majority of the players on dead invite rosters are already plotting their next roster that will die the exact same way their previous one did. The problem with the blacklist is that although problem players play a big part in the death of the team, it's normally not the main reason. Normally, losing just takes it toll so in this case the blacklist won't stop unstable teams but rather unstable players.

Let's say all 4 LAN teams stay together for next season and for the remaining 4 slots I take 3 IM teams and 1 "new" invite team. Now all the invite players from the dead teams have nowhere to go but open which is how it should be. The problem with how we've been running tf2 in the past is that due to the frequency at which invite teams die for now all of sudden to say "Too bad go to open" would create a huge influx of brokenly strong open teams. The few times that an invite teams ends up in open I get angry pms and gigantic threads on "WHY TEAM X SHOULDN'T BE OPEN". Now imagine, there were 4. That's pretty much what we're looking at if we took a harsher stand. The good news is over time the frequency of invite teams dying should go down. The bad news is open will take a hit and it will strongly discourage lower open teams to joining (like they were going to win 1st anyways). Also, invite players might retire because they don't want to repeat the 2 season process of going invite. Also, every seed the worst IM team that gets into the poll always cries and says they will all quit if they get in invite. With this method, the skill disparity would grow in Invite. Of course, we have absolutely no idea what happens when a decently good IM teams stays in Invite for 3 seasons as it's never happened.

TL;DR Although everyone is yelling for more IM teams to be in invite, the middle IM teams that would barely make it don't want to be there. What do?

My post wasn't solely targeting Craig, but I'm still firm in my belief that "scouting for new (or in this case someone who hasn't played in 2 years) talent" is not something that should be invite mentality. People who are regarded as "upcoming" players are ones that start at the bottom and are shown recognition. They don't start at invite and get their chance to prove themselves there.

The "team of friends" is a great mentality - but it's also one that should earn it's place in invite through progressing up from IM. What is happening right now is essentially roster hijacking. You give a player an invite roster and he's free to choose whoever he wants on his team. Invite should be an earned title, and despite Craig's improvements over the season he should not have started his first invite season after 5 seasons of not playing competitive. It doesn't make any logical sense and it promotes circle jerk connections over dedication to the game.

So basically what you're saying is the person that's been forever IM should get recognized, get cherry picked off his 'established' team, to be given the chance to perform in invite? That's even worse than picking up free agents, that's cutting your way to the top.

This community is truly a joke if this is the response to "don't pick up players that haven't played the game in years or don't take it seriously". The point is there isn't many established teams in this game - at all. Vector has probably the most in-tact roster in IM over 3 seasons and they still have a few switched positions. Xensity changed half their roster. There are plenty of players that are currently in the scene because literally half the IM teams die after the season.Are you honestly proposing that there is zero alternative to picking up has-been players out of their year long retirement? You're admitting to a dead TF2 scene if you believe this.

I never said not to pick up Free Agents. I said these Free Agents should be people who actually play the game. Is that so hard to ask? Is it impossible to pick up a player who has been in the scene for a while and still takes it seriously? Apparently so.

EDIT: There's already 6 (Whazzle, Big Boys, New Map Thugs, Nexzil, HRG, Schicken) dead teams in IM halfway through the season. Are you to tell me there is absolutely no available players from IM without taking them from Vector or Xensity?

invite is made of invite teams, not exactly invite players, if that means anything

Maybe that pickup made sense for the team at the time because his natural skill level is much higher than your theoretical 3 seasons in IM practiced person has peaked at? People that have potential get picked up. I've picked up harbleu, mesr, kbk, lansky, to name a couple, as up and coming players to my teams. Not to mention oplaid picked me up and took a chance on me s6. Tyrone has had fantastic recruiting of players as well, see: yz50/clockwork. S on my chest got picked up by chess club. Maybe your theoretical player just doesn't exhibit signs of being a worthwhile pickup for an invite team trying to win. This game is much more about teamwork than it is about individual skill, and I would perform much better with a worse player who I like playing with than a DM god with the personality of a rock.

Not to derail, or like I could contribute anything to this discussion but I think this is the most respectable thread on newfrag I've ever seen.

It's the other way around. Invite is made up of invite players, not invite teams, if that means anything.

Also, what do you guys think would happen if I implemented a 3 season roster lock at the beginning of the next season?

Why don't we have an invite playoffs and then the finalist play on lan?

These comparisons are awful.

S On My Chest was picked up by chess club after dominating IM the previous season on That's So Rando. How is this "taking a chance"? They saw a talented player and picked him up.

Mesr showed improvement and played in every single season since S3.

YZ50 played a fuck ton of DM and still played in open S5 on a losing team before being picked up for invite in S6.

Clockwork played on flame_idiot the season before playing for eMg and was already established as a good relevant player - and a good soldier before that.

Absolutely none of your examples are comparable to Craig coming back from s7 to s12 to get a spot in Invite. All of your examples are ones that show how invite SHOULD be. Players that have proven themselves to be up and coming and given their chance to shine in invite. Not players that played 5 seasons ago and are friends with the team leader.

i think that everything will be just fine

Can't tell you how many times I fanboyed out playing with Solidsnake in SourceOP like 4 years ago. Everything said in this post is entirely true. Rather than worry about winning and losing exclusively, use what you have to go into pubs. Introduce yourself to the pub players. Invite them to come to nooby mixes. Make them realize that you're all good dudes.

i think its awfully presumptuous and ignorant to claim he got a spot based on his history

i tried the guy out as pocket for my IM team before season 8, for only one night, and i distinctly remember being impressed. he's a good player.

also i seriously doubt winning open a million years ago on medic is opening any invite doors for him at this point

This has happened to me a few times, i love interacting with fans and people who recognize me, because those people are awesome in my book for just knowing who i am

I'm not saying "winning open on medic a million years ago" got him into invite. In this case, I'm saying his connections did. My earlier post described the "roster hijacking" in invite and how it makes a player being "invite caliber" irrelevant to the decision of picking them up.

Platinum is describing instances of players, like himself, who have showed constant progression throughout the game through dedication and are given an opportunity to play in invite. This is what I believe invite should behave as. Lansky himself said that he picked up Craig because they were friends and he would rather play with friends than good players who were assholes.

EDIT: There should be a balance of course. Players with asshole personalities can definitely kill a team just as quick as a 0-16 record.

This is important, obviously, but that's more of a general guideline of how most top players like to play... Playing with people that you actually ENJOY playing with makes a big difference. Regardless of skill, I wouldn't choose to play on a team with players with negative attitudes/lack of effort. However, I would never tell my team that I'm picking up X player just because he's my friend or something. Players with the drive/skillset to improve is something that I like to have on my team. The whole team agreed upon the decision to pick him up and I don't regret it in the slightest.

EDIT: On a second note, do you have any examples of players that got to invite based on "connections" that don't actually DESERVE to be there? I know you mentioned Craig but I honestly believe that he deserves to keep playing in invite after how much he improved this season.