Yes it's obviously better, although it reenforces bad habits, a pyro isn't irrelevant without it. That's all I'm trying to get at.

yeah the degreaser outclasses the hell out of the other flamethrowers (except maybe phlog?)

but...it's not overpowered

stock and backburner are just way inferior, buff them

stock shouldn't always be the template for balance, see melee weapons and overdose

speaking of that, buff stock syringe and blutsauger too? in the same vein as the degreaser, the overdose is a great unlock and an upgrad, and nobody uses any other syringe gun

#92
The degreaser and overdose are utility weapons that serve a purpose other than dealing damage, and since the pyro and medics role doesn't revolve around dealing damage, the degreaser and overdose are more useful. If your goal as a pyro or medic is to deal more damage then the stock (flamethrower and needles) or the alternative (backburner and blutsauger) would be a more viable choice. One is only "better" than the other because of how the metagame and role of the pyro and medic has evolved.

No amount of buffs are going to make people want to use the stock flamethrower. The quickswitch is too much to give up.

A. buff flamethrower range + particle speed [+ damage?]

B. as it stands, you must wait the full .75 seconds after airblasting to fire your flamethrower, halve this to .375 seconds but keep the time between airblasts at .75

C. move jockey set bonus to powerjack

the key to balancing the stock flamethrower is to make it good enough that it can stand on its own

degreaser would still be powerful for burst damage + range + freedom to quickswitch back to airblast

i haven't heard any idea how to fix the backburner though, an interesting idea was to use a taunt to cloak and uncloak, cnd-style (no pyro yelling), but you can't move until you uncloak, not enough on its own but might maybe work with those up there changes (maybe minus B) plus 135 backcrit angle (currently it's 90, vs the spy's 180, and it's kinda hard to get good hit detection) and maybe 40 ammo airblasts idk, the problem is that ambushing as a pyro is really gimmicky compared to the consistency of playing defensively around your team, which the backburner isn't very good at because it has so few airblasts, the backburner, to be useful, needs adequate, but inferior defensive power, plus it needs to be significantly better at ambushing than it is

fair point about overdose but

i am PRETTY sure stockthrower pyros are a lot worse at killing things than the degreaser, range and quickswitch to reflects is really, really good

the extra damage on the flamethrower is useful for w+m1ing into clumped-up groups that don't include other pyros with airblast, a situation that is a lot rarer than just finding a guy and trying to kill him, which the degreaser is a lot better at, and even when you fight combo vs combo they rarely stay close enough and collinear enough that you can use the penetration to hit multiple targets

i'd say buff the syringe gun by making it +1 hp on hit and give the blutsauger +1 regen, and maybe take an extra damage or two per needle off the overdose because it really isn't that noticeable right now at all

overdose +speed -damage normal regen
stock has no speed but minimal combat healing and normal regen
blutsauger has no speed and worse regen but is good for clutching

that way they all have utility, but it's reliable utility vs clutching utility with the stock as a middle ground

lmao "originally intended" pyro was "oringinally intended" not to have Airblast meaning Extinguishing teammates, reflects, and juggling ubers was impossible.

"How do you think Pyro players played before the degreaser was added?"
Before the degreaser in competitive. They didn't except very rare circumstances. I am pretty sure Highlander didn't even exist at the time as a competitive format either. It was mostly 8s and 6s were it was basically the same 4 classes 6s uses now.
Before the degreaser in pubs. They WM+1'd people just like now.

You brought up MvC2 as an argument for meta-game development and balance, I am now certain that you are talking out of your ass.

As someone who used to "main" pyro before highlander was really a thing, I played it exactly the same way I do now, the degreaser just made it easier. Almost too easy really. I also thought that the airblast buffs were never necessary in terms of speed, ammo cost and the ability to mini-crit on reflects. A pyro could be just as powerful without the degreaser or the airblast buffs that he can be now, it just required a marginally higher amount of skill to do it.

Holy shit you guys saying pyro (and to a lesser extent degreaser) needs a nerf need to step the fuck back and understand that pyro is the easiest class to deal with on a 1v1. Literally every class can kill a pyro at 1v1. For pyro to win a 1v1, he has to outsmart the other person (usually through baiting).

It's beyond me how the fuck people can think that pyro is on the same level of medic in terms of support. I just can't wrap my mind around this concept. Pyro has many many jobs in HL, and requires a ton of gamesense to play well. Take away degreaser and you neuter the pyro to pretty much only stay on combo rather than float between combo and flank, which is both lowering the skill ceiling and making the class far more annoying to play against.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndZoP4yctqA

This video is from early 2009 which is before:
-Degreaser
-Airblast buffs
-Crit flares

I know that most of those clips are from pubs, but it just shows that it was still very possible to do the things back then that pyros do now, you just actually had to be good at it. I'm not saying the degreaser and pyro need nerfs, but anyone who thinks that the pyro NEEDS the things listed above to be relevant compared to the other classes is objectively wrong.

Not applicable, not only are pubs easy to topscore as pyro but pubbers from 2009 are far dumber than pubbers today. Objectively. Additionally, the sheer amount of weapons added since 2009 makes the stock pyro even worse in competitive today compared to how highlander would play out back in 2009.

Ruskey hit this on the head.

Sticks and standard mini-gun are so good that unlocks are not "side-grades" ... they are in fact, not that in the slightest. They are downgrades. Does this mean it's necessary to nerf them, or buff the other weapons in the same category? Who knows.

I think the sticky launcher is likely the strongest weapon in game (situational damage and all around flexibility) and could use a little bit of a nudge down, not a ton, just a slight nudge. Whether that's in splash range, base damage, fall off, arm time, etc. I don't think it's the number of sticks that can be deployed that makes it such a strong weapon... but I think the initial damage, splash/fall off, and arm time play a bigger part as to why it's so good.

Pipes do a ton of damage, too, but the sticks are really the reason why demo is the super-man class of TF2.

Will this change the current meta for demo? Yup. Any change in this system will require adjustments.

I'd put the minigun's blame on the other items not being very good, really. Heavy's other primary options have, in their best times, only managed to be "obnoxious" as opposed to "good".

Maybe so, but saying that not having the degreaser would completely "neuter" the pyro is a somewhat irrational statement at best. The only reason it's seen as "necessary" is because it's really good at making what you already had to do as pyro easier, not because it's completely impossible to play without it. All I'm saying is that as good as the degreaser is, it's not really all that necessary when you look back and remember that this thing didn't always exist. Sure, maybe some weapons could make a degreaserless pyro's life a bit harder (nothing specific actually comes to mind though, liberty launcher maybe?) but I think I'd still be able to get along just fine without it if the degreaser had never came to be.

Uhh, no. The only reason pyros play on the flank is BECAUSE of the versatility and switch of damage source that the degreaser grants. I can guarantee that if degreaser is banned, a few pyros will stubbornly stay on flank but they'll end up on the combo most of the time because they don't accomplish anything on flank.

It'd end up making pyro just not fun to play or fun to play against, which is against the whole goal of playing the game. To have fun.

It's ROLE is pretty much held together by being able to use the degreaser. Crit-flares, crit-axes and the airblast all require fast reaction times in order to more effectively defend against (good) spies or a strong explosive flank. While bloodsire's video is somewhat proof of concept from your perspective; it is ultimately, a corner case. Much like the sandvich is the accepted secondary for a heavy in HL and the Ambassador is effectively the accepted spy primary, there's a difference between "viable" and optimal. Some players can make the stock revolver work for them, but they ARE nerfing their damage output.
Getting along just fine does not mean you're performing at the peak of your play.

When it comes down to it, not using the degreaser makes you more vulnerable to heavies, engies with the mini . . . pretty much every hitscan class. Sure, you can handle soldiers and demos basically the same, but every other class can beat you 1v1 easily (except maybe the big pick classes). It's essential because it obsoletes the stock in most situations.

The problem with Demoman is that his unlocks are really annoying.

If Scottish Resistance was a sidegrade to the Stock, that means it would concentrate all of the stock's awesome power into creating stalemates.

That's scary. And that isn't fun.

Meanwhile the shields turn him into a pick class. And pick classes are just inherently not as good when there are Pyros with the combo and when you can just kill people with traps. And also with airbursting.

Sticky Jumper is fine. It's not equal to the stock, but it's a great situational picking tool that is better than the Sticky Launcher in certain situations because of Caber oneshotting and the hugest mobility in the game short of maybe the Bazooka, which is a stupid weapon.

Speaking of the Caber though, Demoman having a one-time oneshot melee is kind of bullshit. His weakness is CQC and forcing a trade like that isn't very fair. Maybe equipping Sticky Jumper makes your melee weapons explode like the Caber, and make the Caber a lot weaker or something. Or just make the Caber the Demoman Market Gardener?

I think the main issue is that the combination of Degreaser + most Pyro unlocks have bred the Pyro into a quick-reaction combo-centric class. Because we've grown so used to it, we simply do not want to try out new things because we go into testing with the thought that the Degreaser is already the best or optimal choice. Removing the Degreaser will not neuter Pyro. Pyro players have become so used to Degreaser making things easier that they simply don't want to switch back.

I don't see how Pyro will be less effective if we ban out Degreaser in a test match. Do it a few times I say. I think its not so much that Degreaser has a huge switch speed boost, but that it's a HUGE switch speed boost.

every "op" wep: OP ( pay attention here ) in pubs

so really?

What..?

All I see this thread turning into is people defending their mains when it gets put on the chopping block for nerfing or balancing. Let's be humble and realistic about this.

C'mon people.

pyro does not need to be buffed, its already easy to play (look at the players who "main" pyro and watch them try to aim on another class). The degreaser and reserve shooter and the pyro airblast update have already compressed the skill ceiling enough.

go back to the pre pyro buff regarding airblast, increase the time between airblasts and remove the minicrit reflect. pyros are able to do more damgage with soldier rockets and demo pipes than soldiers and demo can do.

also i'm not sure about this but... does landing a point blank rocket reflect do half the damage to a pyro than it would a soldier hitting a rocket at point blank?

Nerf sticky launcher this shit's too good

don't buff pyro, buff the other unlocks so they're equally as useful as deg+axe or jockey

because they can't shoot the rockets and pipes unlike soldiers and demos

pyros don't have resistance to their own reflects, but you can't take mini-crit damage from yourself

on a related note pyros are lighter than soldiers and demos and will take a larger amount of knockback

BY THE WAY i used to main pyro but i don't anymore

even though it's still my most played class

i swear

...Are we sincerely arguing for a pyro nerf? He's one of the worst classes in the game, and we're arguing that he's not nerfed enough?

I was talking with a friend who linked me this thread and we were discussing Pyro for a few minutes. IIRC, Pyro, upon first getting the air blast mechanic, had these stipulations regarding it (correct me if I'm wrong):

1. 25 ammo per blast
2. No minicrits on reflected projectiles
3. Couldn't 1 reflect:1 rocket trade with Soldier

Now the way I see it, the one thing Pyro has essentially "grown to require" is the Air Blast (as opposed to the Degreaser's quick-switch "safety net" as most typical Pyro mains I talk to say). However, we were talking about exactly how well balanced it was. In my opinion, the only of those three rules I have any issue with would be the third one. As someone who spends all their time focusing on just Medic and Pyro whenever I play in a competitive format, I honestly don't feel the other two would hurt Pyro's ability to be useful at all.

On the point of the Degreaser, as a heavy user of it, I tend to agree. I was just playing vanilla Pyro again since talking with my friend, and while I still want to experiment for a few more days yet, after just 2 hours I don't find I miss the Degreaser at all (well, besides the fact I'm missing reflect/extinguish/posthumous kills counts because mine's strange :P). Like I said in my previous post, I think the main issue is that the switch speed bonus is simply too high. Dropping to 40% or under would be a good start.

Reserve shooter is weird. It's a niche weapon, and I think the only real "reason" for complaining about it is that it's 100% easier to juggle enemies as Pyro than Soldier. The issue is that to nerf it's core mechanic (minicrits on airborne enemies), so Pyro can gain so much damage for essentially free, will relegate it to total obscurity on Soldier (or more so than already).

Lastly, if reflected projectiles do less to Pyro than they would to Soldier/Demo, that's definitely something that needs looking into.

Which is precisely the problem. I don't want to ban the degreaser. I'm banning it so they see that the pyro class is very broken right now.

i'm still not sure why a terrible player can accidently reflect your rocket and do rocket damage(x1.5) to you and possibly turn the tide of a fight towards them? if they used regular rockets you still stand a chance, also the knock back is increased for minicrits, making your knockback pattern a bit more predictable.

i pub quite a bit, honestly there is nothing less fun than getting accidently reflected by someone wearing velcro shoes.

i think itd be fun to have a random self destruct when playing pyro. every so often airblast malfunctions and the pyro explodes. that would be fun for me.

we could also add an overheat function to the minigun where randomly the heavy will burst into flames and burn to death. that would also be fun for me.

i have an engineer unusual, so i main engineer.

Once they have a way to collect direct data, if they see the degreaser used 100% of the time they'll do something to level other primaries.

Whether or not the others are UP or the degreaser is OP is a contentious point that absolutely positively will not be solved here so anyone who respects the thread having worthwhile information in it should stop arguing about it immediately.

I personally think the degreaser is just a little too good and the backburner is just a little too bad and I've already said what I would do to fix that. Lower the refire rate of the degreaser's airblast and give it the 25 ammo cost. Really, what does the extra 5 ammo per airblast actually do other than make it so that you can literally sit there holding down m2 for an extra two airblasts? Save in you some corner cases where you weren't paying attention to your ammo to reflect back? Specific individual mechanics like this and their effects on the game are what you should be talking about, not toxic "ultimate" retorts like "this video is an exception I swear!!!" or "critwhoring IS THE REASON PYRO IS WORTH ANYTHING D:<".

You just said to stop arguing about it, only to continue the argument right after saying that because you couldn't help yourself having the last word.
ggwp

Something I'm sincerely wondering regarding the metagame is the Boston Basher. Isn't it... kind of odd that the one good advantage it had going for it in the long run was supposed to be its major disadvantage? And that accidental advantage is so good, that there's not really any reason to use anything else.