I wanna start with off by saying I'm a fatalist. I overexagerate, over dramatize and make everything sound a lot worse than what it is. I decided to write this big ass thing because I know I'll never be asked on podcasts or streams. If there was ever a time for a gotfrag essay, now is the time.
To begin, we gotta go all the way back to 2007, back when eSports was still booming. At the time, Counter Strike was the biggest game by far in the west. Dota and SC for the most part were only popular out in the east, FPS dominated the western scene. People think that just recently eSports has begun to explode, they're wrong. eSports was huge back then, maybe not as big, but still very sizeable. CPL, the biggest of the circuits, was set to close down in 2007. After all the corruption and "misplaced" prizes, it had actually grown the scene a fair amount. CGS, Championship Gaming Series, had begun to form around 2006 but it's first "real" season was in 2007. For those that don't know what the CGS is, it was a very short lived league that was televised on DirectTV. Since then, the only eSports on TV in North America has been Halo on ESPN by MLG (2008/9?). Counter Strike was getting big and there was plenty of excitement of finally getting on TV, being recognized.
CGS was big. Franchise were bought and owned by CGS, players were salaried, prize pots were big and CS was on TV. For CGS though, the current state of Counter Strike was too stale. The casual audience just didn't like it as much as the competitive one. One of the CGS's biggest downfalls was its management. It wasn't run by gamers or fans, it was run by businessmen. CS, in its competitive format, is run 32 rounds. For the casual audience, games lasted too long. There were far too many rounds to keep them interested in matches. They decided to change the rules, from now on CS was to be played in 18 rounds. Hey man, whatever, a few less rounds, who cares, we're on TV. Unfortunately, they still didn't feel that was enough to appeal to newer viewers. For those that don't know, CS players start off with 800$ to buy their guns. Due to your low amount of money, you're forced to buy pistols for the first round. This is known as the "Pistol Round". This dictates a large portion of the game since winning pistol round give you a huge economic advantage. Well jeez, we have fewer rounds now and audiences wanna see the big guns. We wanna hear the boom of the AWP and the big plays with AK, why are we waiting 8 rounds to get there? CS players no longer started with 800$ but started with the full 16k. This way, the big guns came out right away. Hmm, well I mean, we're still playing CS, it's just a bit different, just remember guys WE'RE ON TV. CPL is dead and CGS is the future, LOOK AT THE MONEY, we'll stick with it.
But they didn't, in 2008 CGS ceased all operations. CGS was sold to a new company who had decided to no longer continue. No reason was given, you can only speculate. One can only imagine that it was due to viewership. The competitive community wasn't too pleased at that point. The game they loved had turned into something else during the time of CGS. The casual gamers moved on, they liked it but they are always chasing the newest trend, no need to stay. Gamers quit, franchises went bankrupt and eSports in the west entered the "dark ages". Viewership was big back then and I believe that FPS will never recover.
Again, I'm a fatalist. I'll make it sound scarier than it is but doesn't this sound a bit familiar. History repeats itself. How many concessions are we willing to make just for support from Valve? What does support from Valve even mean? What are they supporting?
I wanna start with off by saying I'm a fatalist. I overexagerate, over dramatize and make everything sound a lot worse than what it is. I decided to write this big ass thing because I know I'll never be asked on podcasts or streams. If there was ever a time for a gotfrag essay, now is the time.
To begin, we gotta go all the way back to 2007, back when eSports was still booming. At the time, Counter Strike was the biggest game by far in the west. Dota and SC for the most part were only popular out in the east, FPS dominated the western scene. People think that just recently eSports has begun to explode, they're wrong. eSports was huge back then, maybe not as big, but still very sizeable. CPL, the biggest of the circuits, was set to close down in 2007. After all the corruption and "misplaced" prizes, it had actually grown the scene a fair amount. CGS, Championship Gaming Series, had begun to form around 2006 but it's first "real" season was in 2007. For those that don't know what the CGS is, it was a very short lived league that was televised on DirectTV. Since then, the only eSports on TV in North America has been Halo on ESPN by MLG (2008/9?). Counter Strike was getting big and there was plenty of excitement of finally getting on TV, being recognized.
CGS was big. Franchise were bought and owned by CGS, players were salaried, prize pots were big and CS was on TV. For CGS though, the current state of Counter Strike was too stale. The casual audience just didn't like it as much as the competitive one. One of the CGS's biggest downfalls was its management. It wasn't run by gamers or fans, it was run by businessmen. CS, in its competitive format, is run 32 rounds. For the casual audience, games lasted too long. There were far too many rounds to keep them interested in matches. They decided to change the rules, from now on CS was to be played in 18 rounds. Hey man, whatever, a few less rounds, who cares, we're on TV. Unfortunately, they still didn't feel that was enough to appeal to newer viewers. For those that don't know, CS players start off with 800$ to buy their guns. Due to your low amount of money, you're forced to buy pistols for the first round. This is known as the "Pistol Round". This dictates a large portion of the game since winning pistol round give you a huge economic advantage. Well jeez, we have fewer rounds now and audiences wanna see the big guns. We wanna hear the boom of the AWP and the big plays with AK, why are we waiting 8 rounds to get there? CS players no longer started with 800$ but started with the full 16k. This way, the big guns came out right away. Hmm, well I mean, we're still playing CS, it's just a bit different, just remember guys WE'RE ON TV. CPL is dead and CGS is the future, LOOK AT THE MONEY, we'll stick with it.
But they didn't, in 2008 CGS ceased all operations. CGS was sold to a new company who had decided to no longer continue. No reason was given, you can only speculate. One can only imagine that it was due to viewership. The competitive community wasn't too pleased at that point. The game they loved had turned into something else during the time of CGS. The casual gamers moved on, they liked it but they are always chasing the newest trend, no need to stay. Gamers quit, franchises went bankrupt and eSports in the west entered the "dark ages". Viewership was big back then and I believe that FPS will never recover.
Again, I'm a fatalist. I'll make it sound scarier than it is but doesn't this sound a bit familiar. History repeats itself. How many concessions are we willing to make just for support from Valve? What does support from Valve even mean? What are they supporting?
Competitive TF2 has been around for a bit more than 5 years. How many times has Valve REALLY advertised anything competitive TF2? Besides those hidden announcements on the teamfortress.com site, there's been nothing. A couple medals and a couple shoutouts. None of us ever wanted an international, just a bit of recognition. A FRONT PAGE POST, a news item in TF2 main screen on the right side or a nice embedded link.
From what I've been told, the biggest changes currently stand as so:
- A restriction of max 2 of any class, maybe no restrictions at all.
-No weapon bans.
-2 of each map type.
To me, that's not TF2. That's not the game I spent a half a decade playing, practicing, watching, loving and failing at. "Jeez, just a couple changes to our game and we'll have valve support, imagine the numbers we could reach, the eyes we could gain. Next thing you know, we'll be at MLG." TFTV is going to make an experimental league I'd assume. "Hmm, playing some payload for valve's support, it's such a big step. Double demos everywhere, well if it means 6v6 lobbies, it'll be worth it."
Once again, I'm a fatalist. This is what I forsee:
6v6 lobby gets picked up. We've finally made it. Valve accepts us. The next big thing is the leagues. What's the point of having this lobbying with this rule set if no leagues use it. No lobby players will transition to league play. Either ESEA picks it up or more likely ESEA passes and enigma decides to make the TFTV league. All of a sudden, a huge rift has been formed in competitive TF2. Some players hate the new format, it's killed the game. Some players love it, some of those people might actually like the new gameplay and some just rally around the idea of Valve's support. ESEA experiences a huge drop in numbers, players begin to quit because the money and excitement isn't what it used to be. The open player base is much smaller now. TFTV also experiences a drop of top players. They loved the idea of Valve's support but just don't have the same passion for TF2. Past that, I have no idea what would happen.
This is the strongest gaming community in the world. No numbers will prove it, no forums posts will show it but if I'm sure of anything it's that. Valve will never give us an international, shit I'd still be surprised to ever see a competitive front page post even if 6v6 lobby was introduced. I'm a fatalist. I overexagerate, over dramatize and make everything sound a lot worse than what it is but before you dive head first into a Valve supported future, think about two things. What Valve's support means and How far we've come.
Competitive TF2 has been around for a bit more than 5 years. How many times has Valve REALLY advertised anything competitive TF2? Besides those hidden announcements on the teamfortress.com site, there's been nothing. A couple medals and a couple shoutouts. None of us ever wanted an international, just a bit of recognition. A FRONT PAGE POST, a news item in TF2 main screen on the right side or a nice embedded link.
From what I've been told, the biggest changes currently stand as so:
- A restriction of max 2 of any class, maybe no restrictions at all.
-No weapon bans.
-2 of each map type.
To me, that's not TF2. That's not the game I spent a half a decade playing, practicing, watching, loving and failing at. "Jeez, just a couple changes to our game and we'll have valve support, imagine the numbers we could reach, the eyes we could gain. Next thing you know, we'll be at MLG." TFTV is going to make an experimental league I'd assume. "Hmm, playing some payload for valve's support, it's such a big step. Double demos everywhere, well if it means 6v6 lobbies, it'll be worth it."
Once again, I'm a fatalist. This is what I forsee:
6v6 lobby gets picked up. We've finally made it. Valve accepts us. The next big thing is the leagues. What's the point of having this lobbying with this rule set if no leagues use it. No lobby players will transition to league play. Either ESEA picks it up or more likely ESEA passes and enigma decides to make the TFTV league. All of a sudden, a huge rift has been formed in competitive TF2. Some players hate the new format, it's killed the game. Some players love it, some of those people might actually like the new gameplay and some just rally around the idea of Valve's support. ESEA experiences a huge drop in numbers, players begin to quit because the money and excitement isn't what it used to be. The open player base is much smaller now. TFTV also experiences a drop of top players. They loved the idea of Valve's support but just don't have the same passion for TF2. Past that, I have no idea what would happen.
This is the strongest gaming community in the world. No numbers will prove it, no forums posts will show it but if I'm sure of anything it's that. Valve will never give us an international, shit I'd still be surprised to ever see a competitive front page post even if 6v6 lobby was introduced. I'm a fatalist. I overexagerate, over dramatize and make everything sound a lot worse than what it is but before you dive head first into a Valve supported future, think about two things. What Valve's support means and How far we've come.
Robin "I didn't quite catch it the first time" Walker
Only thing I am afraid of is nerfs being made instead of bans which would effectively kill our current comp.format
Robin "I didn't quite catch it the first time" Walker
Only thing I am afraid of is nerfs being made instead of bans which would effectively kill our current comp.format
i really did need something to fall asleep to
i really did need something to fall asleep to
i think we're getting ahead of ourselves
i think we're getting ahead of ourselves
Immediately after reading this I got blackscreened and had to shut the power off/on again to get my computer functioning.
Clearly it is as shocked as I am that I'm agreeing with killing
Immediately after reading this I got blackscreened and had to shut the power off/on again to get my computer functioning.
Clearly it is as shocked as I am that I'm agreeing with killing
What this lobby system means, realistically:
People will find that 2 demos is drastically over-powered at the moment.
The faster, more aggressive classes (gunboats soldier, scout, etc) can roll over the turtling classes when played intelligently. (relying on flanking routes to backcap etc)
A terrible lobby system that people grow beyond and eventually find better options to.
so . . . nothing we didn't know already.
If valve can implement changes to classes to make them competitive, that MIGHT change the meta, but they'd be DRASTIC changes to classes.
What this lobby system means, realistically:
People will find that 2 demos is drastically over-powered at the moment.
The faster, more aggressive classes (gunboats soldier, scout, etc) can roll over the turtling classes when played intelligently. (relying on flanking routes to backcap etc)
A terrible lobby system that people grow beyond and eventually find better options to.
so . . . nothing we didn't know already.
If valve can implement changes to classes to make them competitive, that MIGHT change the meta, but they'd be DRASTIC changes to classes.
Sounds like Valve support will lead to TF2 burning out (according to Killing), which is of course better than fading away.
Sounds like Valve support will lead to TF2 burning out (according to Killing), which is of course better than fading away.
dingotldr version?
Changing the 6s metagame just so valve will add in-game 6s lobbies will ultimately kill 6s by dividing the competitive community.
[quote=dingo]tldr version?[/quote]
Changing the 6s metagame just so valve will add in-game 6s lobbies will ultimately kill 6s by dividing the competitive community.
I feel like this isn't an unpopular opinion. But you've definitely expressed it in the best way so far.
I feel like this isn't an unpopular opinion. But you've definitely expressed it in the best way so far.
dingotldr version?
Before we dive head first into a Valve supported future by changing the 6v6 format we've created, think about two things; What Valve's support means and How far we've come.
This change has the potential of splitting the community if esea does not pick it up and players who do not support the new format will leave(since nobody plays tf2 for money).
TLDR: Is changing the game worth what valve will give us in return?
edit: oops penguin beat me by 1 min
[quote=dingo]tldr version?[/quote]
Before we dive head first into a Valve supported future by changing the 6v6 format we've created, think about two things; What Valve's support means and How far we've come.
This change has the potential of splitting the community if esea does not pick it up and players who do not support the new format will leave(since nobody plays tf2 for money).
TLDR: Is changing the game worth what valve will give us in return?
edit: oops penguin beat me by 1 min
You wrote more though. S'good.
You wrote more though. S'good.
tf2 is cartoons how can you take it seriously haaha
tf2 is cartoons how can you take it seriously haaha
I agree. Let it be, valve support probably isn't whats best.
I agree. Let it be, valve support probably isn't whats best.
demannutf2 is cartoons how can you take it seriously haaha
Why are you on this site then???
[quote=demannu]tf2 is cartoons how can you take it seriously haaha[/quote]
Why are you on this site then???
If getting Valve's support means castrating the current format then fuck them.
This lobby system needs to be done right. I don't mind starting off with highlander lobbies because highlander is basically... an organized pub. But for gods sake a 6s lobby will be watered down shit and new players won't understand the format and won't like the real shit so it will just hinder our efforts.
Highlander lobby: Don't have a problem with, it will benefit the community
6s lobby: Bad unless it's very similar or exactly like ESEA
Not much we can really do here without ruining the current format. Games die out over time, Counter-Strike lasted for more than a decade without much Valve support. Who says we can't do the same? We need to find other ways besides Valve.
If getting Valve's support means castrating the current format then fuck them.
This lobby system needs to be done right. I don't mind starting off with highlander lobbies because highlander is basically... an organized pub. But for gods sake a 6s lobby will be watered down shit and new players won't understand the format and won't like the real shit so it will just hinder our efforts.
Highlander lobby: Don't have a problem with, it will benefit the community
6s lobby: Bad unless it's very similar or exactly like ESEA
Not much we can really do here without ruining the current format. Games die out over time, Counter-Strike lasted for more than a decade without much Valve support. Who says we can't do the same? We need to find other ways besides Valve.
- A restriction of max 2 of any class, maybe no restrictions at all.
i would kill myself
- A restriction of max 2 of any class, maybe no restrictions at all.
i would kill myself
milo- A restriction of max 2 of any class, maybe no restrictions at all.
i would kill myself
two heavies on last
rip fun
[quote=milo]- A restriction of max 2 of any class, maybe no restrictions at all.
i would kill myself[/quote]
two heavies on last
rip fun
a: WTF I just can't understand what's robin thinking...!
b: HATS bro, HATS!!! :/
COME ON ROBIN, GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER.
a: WTF I just can't understand what's robin thinking...!
b: HATS bro, HATS!!! :/
COME ON ROBIN, GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER.
lynademannutf2 is cartoons how can you take it seriously haaha
Why are you on this site then???
nemrawd is mad because he can't play this game anymore.
[quote=lyna][quote=demannu]tf2 is cartoons how can you take it seriously haaha[/quote]
Why are you on this site then???[/quote]
nemrawd is mad because he can't play this game anymore.
I agree with killing for the most part, I like it as it is. We can do more on our own and have been for some time and are seeing steady growth across all tf2 leagues - and even MORE leagues just in general.
I agree with killing for the most part, I like it as it is. We can do more on our own and have been for some time and are seeing steady growth across all tf2 leagues - and even MORE leagues just in general.
it sounds like all of this 6v6 unbanning and whatever, it's turning 6s into a 6s-highlander mix
they are 2 different layouts, keep them different
it sounds like all of this 6v6 unbanning and whatever, it's turning 6s into a 6s-highlander mix
they are 2 different layouts, keep them different
This is a great post. As a community, i46 was our greatest accomplishment and i49 is set to dwarf that monumentous effort and incredible event. How many communities can really say they've allowed three undefeated teams of six from three continents to have a showdown at an international event which will also be casted by the community?
This is a great post. As a community, i46 was our greatest accomplishment and i49 is set to dwarf that monumentous effort and incredible event. How many communities can really say they've allowed three undefeated teams of six from three continents to have a showdown at an international event which will also be casted by the community?
dingotldr version?
"I'm a fatalist. I overexagerate, over dramatize and make everything sound a lot worse than what it is" - Killing
[quote=dingo]tldr version?[/quote]
"I'm a fatalist. I overexagerate, over dramatize and make everything sound a lot worse than what it is" - Killing
Nemrawd, can you revert back to not being a complete jack off. Much appreciated.
Kapowwdingotldr version?
Before we dive head first into a Valve supported future by changing the 6v6 format we've created, think about two things; What Valve's support means and How far we've come.
This change has the potential of splitting the community if esea does not pick it up and players who do not support the new format will leave(since nobody plays tf2 for money).
TLDR: Is changing the game worth what valve will give us in return?
I might have missed this part somewhere, but do we exactly know how Valve would support us? Are we talking medals, are we talking about big tournaments with a huge prize pot (or at least a prize pot noticeably bigger than ESEA-I's), or what?
As long as we know exactly what's in it for us, then I don't see a problem with wanting to go through with it. If it's worth our time entirely, we should shoot for the stars. If it's not worth out time completely, we should consider but shouldn't completely revamp the idea of 6s. There needs to be a compromise, but we can't revamp the idea of 6s when we barely get anything for it. A little support after making a lot of major changes is less worth it than getting no support and continue on with things as if this wasn't a thing.
Nemrawd, can you revert back to not being a complete jack off. Much appreciated.
[quote=Kapoww][quote=dingo]tldr version?[/quote]
Before we dive head first into a Valve supported future by changing the 6v6 format we've created, think about two things; What Valve's support means and How far we've come.
This change has the potential of splitting the community if esea does not pick it up and players who do not support the new format will leave(since nobody plays tf2 for money).
TLDR: Is changing the game worth what valve will give us in return? [/quote]
I might have missed this part somewhere, but do we exactly know how Valve would support us? Are we talking medals, are we talking about big tournaments with a huge prize pot (or at least a prize pot noticeably bigger than ESEA-I's), or what?
As long as we know exactly what's in it for us, then I don't see a problem with wanting to go through with it. If it's worth our time entirely, we should shoot for the stars. If it's not worth out time completely, we should consider but shouldn't completely revamp the idea of 6s. There needs to be a compromise, but we can't revamp the idea of 6s when we barely get anything for it. A little support after making a lot of major changes is less worth it than getting no support and continue on with things as if this wasn't a thing.
Honest question, do people really care that much about ESEA getting the medals? I personally don't care for them or really about them at all. Is the potential of misc items worth changing the game?
Honest question, do people really care that much about ESEA getting the medals? I personally don't care for them or really about them at all. Is the potential of misc items worth changing the game?
BenroadsHonest question, do people really care that much about ESEA getting the medals? I personally don't care for them or really about them at all. Is the potential of misc items worth changing the game?
the medals actually advertise the competitive scene really well. even if you dont wear them, theyre visible if someone looks at your backpack
that being said: no
[quote=Benroads]Honest question, do people really care that much about ESEA getting the medals? I personally don't care for them or really about them at all. Is the potential of misc items worth changing the game?[/quote]
the medals actually advertise the competitive scene really well. even if you dont wear them, theyre visible if someone looks at your backpack
that being said: no
Never really thought about it as an advertising method. Is valve opposed to giving 6s medals cause so far i've only seen UGC and ETF2l Highlander medals.
Never really thought about it as an advertising method. Is valve opposed to giving 6s medals cause so far i've only seen UGC and ETF2l Highlander medals.