cinq
Regarding the idea of a specific channel for middle players... I am not sure if there would be enough competitive players to have a channel dedicated to middle players. Plus, there's a "!surf" command, barely anybody is using it, that thing is for those players who feel unchallenged by normal games, just skip the lower games and wait for the captain games. There's no need for a second channel in my opinion, let alone a third...
The surf requirements are pretty ridiculous (you need a high med %) and as far as I've seen admins haven't been authorizing people to use it (if that's how it works).
[quote=cinq]
Regarding the idea of a specific channel for middle players... I am not sure if there would be enough competitive players to have a channel dedicated to middle players. Plus, there's a "!surf" command, barely anybody is using it, that thing is for those players who feel unchallenged by normal games, just skip the lower games and wait for the captain games. There's no need for a second channel in my opinion, let alone a third...
[/quote]The surf requirements are pretty ridiculous (you need a high med %) and as far as I've seen admins haven't been authorizing people to use it (if that's how it works).
"there is no need for a second channel"
cinq do you even remember why tf2pug/tf2mix is a thing? come on man. go back to the times when it WAS just pugna. people always complaining about how they could never play. at this time it was just pugna, gathers were barely alive but still happening and there were very rarely any steam groups for pugging.
then tf2pug came around, assuring lower leveled players had the opportunity to play the game competitively outside of scrims and matches. today we have tons of steam groups for pugging and we also have tf2mix. tf2mix is the most popular of all of them. most of the others are either pretty much dead or don't really set themselves to attract lower leveled players (power pugs for example). to say there shouldn't be a second channel is the wrong way to go about this.
if i somehow misunderstood what you said or if you worded what you said incorrectly, then i apologize.
edit: just for clarity, i'm in no way trying to disrespect your intent or your dedication to bettering the channel, and i'm in no way trying to down you. i really hope i misunderstood what you wrote as you have done a lot for this community.
"there is no need for a second channel"
cinq do you even remember why tf2pug/tf2mix is a thing? come on man. go back to the times when it WAS just pugna. people always complaining about how they could never play. at this time it was just pugna, gathers were barely alive but still happening and there were very rarely any steam groups for pugging.
then tf2pug came around, assuring lower leveled players had the opportunity to play the game competitively outside of scrims and matches. today we have tons of steam groups for pugging and we also have tf2mix. tf2mix is the most popular of all of them. most of the others are either pretty much dead or don't really set themselves to attract lower leveled players (power pugs for example). to say there shouldn't be a second channel is the wrong way to go about this.
if i somehow misunderstood what you said or if you worded what you said incorrectly, then i apologize.
[b]edit:[/b] just for clarity, i'm in no way trying to disrespect your intent or your dedication to bettering the channel, and i'm in no way trying to down you. i really hope i misunderstood what you wrote as you have done a lot for this community.
I'd just like to echo the common sentiment that mix's main problem is people who've stopped taking it seriously. High-skilled players abusing strategies that only work because they're playing against people they can stomp, low-skilled players who mask their insecurity by messing around; both are problems.
These problems can only be addressed by changing the norms of the community as a whole. Derping around as pyro, sniper, or spy is a prisoner's dilemma: everyone hates on it, but we all know it's really fun when you're the one doing it. TF2Lobby's failure to police that collective action problem is what led to it's demise, and the same thing's happening in mix.
More (and more active) admins is a necessary start, and we should all act on the admins' request to actually report trolls (I know I just seethe in silence, which doesn't help anyone). But we should all feel entitled to call people out for screwing around, even (especially!) if they're some too-cool-for-school invite or IM player. People will only stop selfishly screwing around when that behavior is so shamed by the community it's no longer in their interest to do so.
I'd just like to echo the common sentiment that mix's main problem is people who've stopped taking it seriously. High-skilled players abusing strategies that only work because they're playing against people they can stomp, low-skilled players who mask their insecurity by messing around; both are problems.
These problems can only be addressed by changing the norms of the community as a whole. Derping around as pyro, sniper, or spy is a prisoner's dilemma: everyone hates on it, but we all know it's really fun when you're the one doing it. TF2Lobby's failure to police that collective action problem is what led to it's demise, and the same thing's happening in mix.
More (and more active) admins is a necessary start, and we should all act on the admins' request to actually [i]report[/i] trolls (I know I just seethe in silence, which doesn't help anyone). But we should all feel entitled to call people out for screwing around, even (especially!) if they're some too-cool-for-school invite or IM player. People will only stop selfishly screwing around when that behavior is so shamed by the community it's no longer in their interest to do so.
elliott_Can you ban the jumpers and charge as well as some of the other joke weapons. Letting people use dumb stuff doesn't really help the pug quality.
the direct hit is the most common irritating fuckaround weapon that i've seen, don't forget that thing :/
[quote=elliott_]Can you ban the jumpers and charge as well as some of the other joke weapons. Letting people use dumb stuff doesn't really help the pug quality.[/quote]
the direct hit is the most common irritating fuckaround weapon that i've seen, don't forget that thing :/
just noticed they added the !roamer and !pocket commands, that's step in the right direction imo
just noticed they added the !roamer and !pocket commands, that's step in the right direction imo
I've been reading this thread and thinking. So far I notice mainly these problems:
1. People add up as captain just to play(even newer people)
2. People who have lots of experience play captain and choose their friends, usually making it a roll.
3. People scrambling till they get their friends
4. People are offclassing full-time and not taking the game seriously.
5. People are not reporting to admins
6. Lack of admins?
7. People coming on alt accounts?(Making it 9v6 also?)
8. People using joke weapons?
There are problems that can possible conflict each other and aren't easy to solve. Number 1 2, and 3 for example, how can we stop that? One way is probably reporting to admin about it most definitely. This will help solve 4 problems. But we also have to think, what IS tf2mix for? I always thought it was not only a place where people can finally get picked who USUALLY NEVER GET to play, but a place for new players also, Newbie Mixes is another place, but tf2mix should definitely be one too. As for people not reporting to admins, I think when a player first enters the IRC channel, it should pop up something like"Need an admin? type !admin". So more people and newer players are aware of this function and able to use it when needed.
The lack of admins can definitely be a problem, but there seems to be many players in this thread that are capable, go pick them up! As for people coming on alts, that seems like a weird problem. In order for that to happen, one would have to give the password to their friends. I don't think it seems easy to catch who would do it, but should be reported anyway. Also possibly check if these people are friends with the alts/etc. The best you can do it leave it to an admin.
People using joke weapons, like I said earlier, hoping that tf2mix can definitely be a trustworthy place where new players can learn and get better, it'd be best to get rid of some unlocks. Not ALL of them, but to an extent where you can still use Gunboats, Kritz, Pain Train, and etc. They should only be allowed to use not only the default RL but also the Original and Direct Hit(could be talked about) more instead of some Beggar's Bazooka or Liberty Launcher.
In the end, there will be many players that will be a douchebag, asshole, whatever you want to call them. The newer generations have been infected by the bad generations of before. It's spreading more and more and people think their circlejerks are good or some shit. The only way to stop this cancer is definitely using admin when you get the chance. So people learn that it's NOT ACCEPTABLE.
I went into a tf2mix once, some brought their friends to spectate and just shit talk my team and etc. As there was also people who were very rude in general, and I was told by a friend that "TF2mix is a great and nice place for newer people". It shames me when I tell other newer to comp friends about tf2mix and they come back telling me it was shit. Let the people who are truly dedicated to helping out TF2Mix/Newer players be admins, Waldo and hooky seem promising definitely.
I've been reading this thread and thinking. So far I notice mainly these problems:
1. People add up as captain just to play(even newer people)
2. People who have lots of experience play captain and choose their friends, usually making it a roll.
3. People scrambling till they get their friends
4. People are offclassing full-time and not taking the game seriously.
5. People are not reporting to admins
6. Lack of admins?
7. People coming on alt accounts?(Making it 9v6 also?)
8. People using joke weapons?
There are problems that can possible conflict each other and aren't easy to solve. Number 1 2, and 3 for example, how can we stop that? One way is probably reporting to admin about it most definitely. This will help solve 4 problems. But we also have to think, what IS tf2mix for? I always thought it was not only a place where people can finally get picked who USUALLY NEVER GET to play, but a place for new players also, Newbie Mixes is another place, but tf2mix should definitely be one too. As for people not reporting to admins, I think when a player first enters the IRC channel, it should pop up something like"Need an admin? type !admin". So more people and newer players are aware of this function and able to use it when needed.
The lack of admins can definitely be a problem, but there seems to be many players in this thread that are capable, go pick them up! As for people coming on alts, that seems like a weird problem. In order for that to happen, one would have to give the password to their friends. I don't think it seems easy to catch who would do it, but should be reported anyway. Also possibly check if these people are friends with the alts/etc. The best you can do it leave it to an admin.
People using joke weapons, like I said earlier, hoping that tf2mix can definitely be a trustworthy place where new players can learn and get better, it'd be best to get rid of some unlocks. Not ALL of them, but to an extent where you can still use Gunboats, Kritz, Pain Train, and etc. They should only be allowed to use not only the default RL but also the Original and Direct Hit(could be talked about) more instead of some Beggar's Bazooka or Liberty Launcher.
In the end, there will be many players that will be a douchebag, asshole, whatever you want to call them. The newer generations have been infected by the bad generations of before. It's spreading more and more and people think their circlejerks are good or some shit. The only way to stop this cancer is definitely using admin when you get the chance. So people learn that it's NOT ACCEPTABLE.
I went into a tf2mix once, some brought their friends to spectate and just shit talk my team and etc. As there was also people who were very rude in general, and I was told by a friend that "TF2mix is a great and nice place for newer people". It shames me when I tell other newer to comp friends about tf2mix and they come back telling me it was shit. Let the people who are truly dedicated to helping out TF2Mix/Newer players be admins, Waldo and hooky seem promising definitely.
MagikarpI've been reading this thread and thinking. So far I notice mainly these problems:
1. People add up as captain just to play(even newer people)
2. People who have lots of experience play captain and choose their friends, usually making it a roll.
3. People scrambling till they get their friends
Solution to #1 = There's not really a solution to this. The most that can be done is reintroducing the games played requirement in order to captain, and having it higher than 40 (something like 75?). I would probably prefer something higher than 75 but I'm not sure how many people actually have that many games who still frequent the channel and play.
Solution to #2 = The only real ways to stop this are either disallowing people who should be in pugna from playing or to make sure there's an admin on during all active pug times and give some sort of punishment to the person doing this.
Solution to #3 = Remove the scramble feature. I'm not saying this just because you brought it up as a problem. It's been a problem since it's ever been a thing. Let's say the entire team of one side is 2 times better than the entire other team. A game that would end in ~10 minutes or less. 3 people scramble and then the teams scramble. What would you say the odds are of there being teams that are fair? Likely but not too likely.
Solution to #4 = Simple. Stricter punishments. I see like 1wk bans that usually last half a day. If you're going to ban for a week, make sure they stay banned and let the other admins know.
Solution to #5 = Can't really enforce this and make it happen. All we can do is just explain that we can't stress it enough.
Solution to #6 = Easy solution, not sure why a change in admins/mods hasn't happened yet.
Solution to #7 = Alt accounts in IRC? You mean like experienced players doing it? I would assume that would be hard to consistently deal with. There would need to be an admin on at all times that people can report to for probability of being an alt and having the admin check IPs (or whatever they can do) and make decisions accordingly.
Solution to #8 = What are "joke weapons"? If you mean something like the Huntsman, then I say to not worry about it and take action on the players themselves if it ends up being bad enough. Beggar's Bazooka and LL aren't even allowed in TF2mix, but I see where you're coming from.
[quote=Magikarp]I've been reading this thread and thinking. So far I notice mainly these problems:
1. People add up as captain just to play(even newer people)
2. People who have lots of experience play captain and choose their friends, usually making it a roll.
3. People scrambling till they get their friends[/quote]
Solution to #1 = There's not really a solution to this. The most that can be done is reintroducing the games played requirement in order to captain, and having it higher than 40 (something like 75?). I would probably prefer something higher than 75 but I'm not sure how many people actually have that many games who still frequent the channel and play.
Solution to #2 = The only real ways to stop this are either disallowing people who should be in pugna from playing or to make sure there's an admin on during all active pug times and give some sort of punishment to the person doing this.
Solution to #3 = Remove the scramble feature. I'm not saying this just because you brought it up as a problem. It's been a problem since it's ever been a thing. Let's say the entire team of one side is 2 times better than the entire other team. A game that would end in ~10 minutes or less. 3 people scramble and then the teams scramble. What would you say the odds are of there being teams that are fair? Likely but not too likely.
Solution to #4 = Simple. Stricter punishments. I see like 1wk bans that usually last half a day. If you're going to ban for a week, make sure they stay banned and let the other admins know.
Solution to #5 = Can't really enforce this and make it happen. All we can do is just explain that we can't stress it enough.
Solution to #6 = Easy solution, not sure why a change in admins/mods hasn't happened yet.
Solution to #7 = Alt accounts in IRC? You mean like experienced players doing it? I would assume that would be hard to consistently deal with. There would need to be an admin on at all times that people can report to for probability of being an alt and having the admin check IPs (or whatever they can do) and make decisions accordingly.
Solution to #8 = What are "joke weapons"? If you mean something like the Huntsman, then I say to not worry about it and take action on the players themselves if it ends up being bad enough. Beggar's Bazooka and LL aren't even allowed in TF2mix, but I see where you're coming from.
The scramble system is there so people don't get fatkidded twice in a row. Although random teams may not be the best idea, the whole having limited slots thing should stay.
You could change normal mode to have captain picking, and have the people with the most games added be forced to captain if no one adds as one by the time there's 12 people ready. In the case they don't know what they're doing, it's pretty much the equivalent of a bad scramble.
Honestly though I don't think it's really worth the effort, if you solve the active admins problem then there will probably be someone there who can force a scramble if it's really bad.
The scramble system is there so people don't get fatkidded twice in a row. Although random teams may not be the best idea, the whole having limited slots thing should stay.
You could change normal mode to have captain picking, and have the people with the most games added be forced to captain if no one adds as one by the time there's 12 people ready. In the case they don't know what they're doing, it's pretty much the equivalent of a bad scramble.
Honestly though I don't think it's really worth the effort, if you solve the active admins problem then there will probably be someone there who can force a scramble if it's really bad.
Magikarpsnip
i've written up a comprehensive document based on pug.na's rules/guidelines that we will be rolling out soon. this will give all players responsibility and accountability for their actions, thus increasing everyone's mix experience. this includes outlining what is acceptable off-classing, re-implementing our captain restrict system, etc.
thank you to everyone for their patience and suggestions.
and yes, !add roamer & !add pocket are a new feature. shoutout to speedy and cinq for implementing this :)
[quote=Magikarp]snip[/quote]
i've written up a comprehensive document based on pug.na's rules/guidelines that we will be rolling out soon. this will give all players responsibility and accountability for their actions, thus increasing everyone's mix experience. this includes outlining what is acceptable off-classing, re-implementing our captain restrict system, etc.
thank you to everyone for their patience and suggestions.
and yes, !add roamer & !add pocket are a new feature. shoutout to speedy and cinq for implementing this :)
Magikarp2. People who have lots of experience play captain and choose their friends, usually making it a roll.
This isn't the captain who picks his friends fault, its the other captain's fault. When picking in a captain pug, you're supposed to pick the best team you can -- you aren't supposed to not pick, or fatkid good players just to ensure a good pug. I don't see this as a problem in which the captain picking his friends is at fault, so long as the friends picked are ACTUALLY deserving of being picked.
kirbySolution to #3 = Remove the scramble feature. I'm not saying this just because you brought it up as a problem. It's been a problem since it's ever been a thing. Let's say the entire team of one side is 2 times better than the entire other team. A game that would end in ~10 minutes or less. 3 people scramble and then the teams scramble. What would you say the odds are of there being teams that are fair? Likely but not too likely.
So normal pugs should just be bad if the bot randomly picks bad teams? Seems kind of stupid to me. Scrambling frequently changes nothing, the method to scrambling should be reworked, so that teams are actually different every time a scramble succeeds. Removing scrambling altogether would just have a lot of people unhappy a lot of the time as opposed to having a lot of people happy a lot of the time, or (more likely), having most people happy some/most of the time.
[quote=Magikarp]2. People who have lots of experience play captain and choose their friends, usually making it a roll.[/quote]
This isn't the captain who picks his friends fault, its the other captain's fault. When picking in a captain pug, you're supposed to pick the best team you can -- you aren't supposed to not pick, or fatkid good players just to ensure a good pug. I don't see this as a problem in which the captain picking his friends is at fault, so long as the friends picked are ACTUALLY deserving of being picked.
[quote=kirby]Solution to #3 = Remove the scramble feature. I'm not saying this just because you brought it up as a problem. It's been a problem since it's ever been a thing. Let's say the entire team of one side is 2 times better than the entire other team. A game that would end in ~10 minutes or less. 3 people scramble and then the teams scramble. What would you say the odds are of there being teams that are fair? Likely but not too likely. [/quote]
So normal pugs should just be bad if the bot randomly picks bad teams? Seems kind of stupid to me. Scrambling frequently changes nothing, the method to scrambling should be reworked, so that teams are actually different every time a scramble succeeds. Removing scrambling altogether would just have a lot of people unhappy a lot of the time as opposed to having a lot of people happy a lot of the time, or (more likely), having most people happy some/most of the time.
I just figured out something this http://steamcommunity.com/id/dreamland_ is the kirby with the youtube channel and this http://steamcommunity.com/id/kirbyc is the kirby who only pubs as sniper and is mid open at best aka the one who goes full time utility in mixes so I think the one who posts here has a right to be confused with these accusations
edit: maybe I'm dumb and everyone already knew this but I always thought for some reason that the spongebob avatar kirby was the one who posted here
I just figured out something this http://steamcommunity.com/id/dreamland_ is the kirby with the youtube channel and this http://steamcommunity.com/id/kirbyc is the kirby who only pubs as sniper and is mid open at best aka the one who goes full time utility in mixes so I think the one who posts here has a right to be confused with these accusations
edit: maybe I'm dumb and everyone already knew this but I always thought for some reason that the spongebob avatar kirby was the one who posted here
4812622
the direct hit is the most common irritating fuckaround weapon that i've seen, don't forget that thing :/
viable
[quote=4812622]
the direct hit is the most common irritating fuckaround weapon that i've seen, don't forget that thing :/[/quote]
viable
DjRoombaSo normal pugs should just be bad if the bot randomly picks bad teams? Seems kind of stupid to me. Scrambling frequently changes nothing, the method to scrambling should be reworked, so that teams are actually different every time a scramble succeeds. Removing scrambling altogether would just have a lot of people unhappy a lot of the time as opposed to having a lot of people happy a lot of the time, or (more likely), having most people happy some/most of the time.
Whenever I see people scramble, it's mostly 3 people thinking the teams are bad and the game will be a roll when either the teams are fine or everyone else thinks the teams are fine. If I remember correctly, people not even in that specific pug can still use the command and scramble teams, but that's another issue with the command. Considering !scramble seems to be the only way to possibly prevent what would otherwise be rolls, albeit there still being a good chance that 1-3 scrambles won't help that much depending on who's added, it should stay until there's a viable solution to the problem.
[quote=DjRoomba]So normal pugs should just be bad if the bot randomly picks bad teams? Seems kind of stupid to me. Scrambling frequently changes nothing, the method to scrambling should be reworked, so that teams are actually different every time a scramble succeeds. Removing scrambling altogether would just have a lot of people unhappy a lot of the time as opposed to having a lot of people happy a lot of the time, or (more likely), having most people happy some/most of the time.[/quote]
Whenever I see people scramble, it's mostly 3 people thinking the teams are bad and the game will be a roll when either the teams are fine or everyone else thinks the teams are fine. If I remember correctly, people not even in that specific pug can still use the command and scramble teams, but that's another issue with the command. Considering !scramble seems to be the only way to possibly prevent what would otherwise be rolls, albeit there still being a good chance that 1-3 scrambles won't help that much depending on who's added, it should stay until there's a viable solution to the problem.
a few asshats came on today and started playing heavy and spy they are all assholes please ban them from ugc/mix/pug
a few asshats came on today and started playing heavy and spy they are all assholes please ban them from ugc/mix/pug