PowerofTowerSpaceCadetUnlocks are the one part of Comp TF2 that I never could understand. Maybe I am too old school of a player but I started the first day of quake and then QWTF, where your individual skill and the skill of your team determined who won and who lost.
Personally, I believe comp TF2 should have no unlocks at all. I can't understand why certain "items" can give a team an advantage over other teams who are less skilled.
Everything should be even across the board. In those situations, the better team will win every time. In the end, isn't that what Competitive play is about? The better team wins and individual items should not be a factor in determining that.
One of the things that makes tf2 such a great competitive fps is that it isn't the team with the better dm that always wins, it's usually the team with the better strategies. Unlocks that give a worse team a clear advantage over a better team are op and banned, but the unlocks that allow for interesting strategies and are sidegrades should be allowed. If a team ran kritz 24/7 they would get destroyed, but a team that knows when to use kritz in the right situation will be good. The only question is whether the quick-fix is op or not.
I think it might be interesting to ban quick-fix on 5 cp maps, but allow it on koth and ad maps. Also I think there should be more koth and AD maps. Edifice is GREAT!
I understand what you are saying and I realize that nothing I say will change anything or matter in the end.
However, I don't think you realize how much strategy can be applied to DMing as a team. I would argue DM is much more strategy based than working around unlock bonuses for an advantage. Using positioning and concentrated fire are many skills teams never develop enough and those are DM related. Essentially the only thing you work on with unlocks are timing for pushes and making plays off the items you equip. That does involve skill in it's own way but DM skill outshines that in my opinion.
My main point is that "items" are being used to circumvent real skill. In any competitive form of Team Fortress, that has never been part of the game. I am just not a fan of items having such a great determining factor in how teams win fights.
[quote=PowerofTower][quote=SpaceCadet]Unlocks are the one part of Comp TF2 that I never could understand. Maybe I am too old school of a player but I started the first day of quake and then QWTF, where your individual skill and the skill of your team determined who won and who lost.
Personally, I believe comp TF2 should have no unlocks at all. I can't understand why certain "items" can give a team an advantage over other teams who are less skilled.
Everything should be even across the board. In those situations, the better team will win every time. In the end, isn't that what Competitive play is about? The better team wins and individual items should not be a factor in determining that.[/quote]
One of the things that makes tf2 such a great competitive fps is that it isn't the team with the better dm that always wins, it's usually the team with the better strategies. Unlocks that give a worse team a clear advantage over a better team are op and banned, but the unlocks that allow for interesting strategies and are sidegrades should be allowed. If a team ran kritz 24/7 they would get destroyed, but a team that knows when to use kritz in the right situation will be good. The only question is whether the quick-fix is op or not.
I think it might be interesting to ban quick-fix on 5 cp maps, but allow it on koth and ad maps. Also I think there should be more koth and AD maps. Edifice is GREAT![/quote]
I understand what you are saying and I realize that nothing I say will change anything or matter in the end.
However, I don't think you realize how much strategy can be applied to DMing as a team. I would argue DM is much more strategy based than working around unlock bonuses for an advantage. Using positioning and concentrated fire are many skills teams never develop enough and those are DM related. Essentially the only thing you work on with unlocks are timing for pushes and making plays off the items you equip. That does involve skill in it's own way but DM skill outshines that in my opinion.
My main point is that "items" are being used to circumvent real skill. In any competitive form of Team Fortress, that has never been part of the game. I am just not a fan of items having such a great determining factor in how teams win fights.
^ what this guy said, quick fix being allowed takes alot more away from the game then it adds
^ what this guy said, quick fix being allowed takes alot more away from the game then it adds
I really was bored watching this LAN. Quickfix just has changed gameplay too much. Roam soldiers forcing ubers is pointless now, as it builds so fast, and there aren't as many consequences to screwing up with it, and the medic can just avoid bombs if the pocket rocket jumps when he sees it.
Let's just go back to way things were. Uber vs Uber, and Kritz once in a while to surprise the other team, that was much more exciting to watch.
I really was bored watching this LAN. Quickfix just has changed gameplay too much. Roam soldiers forcing ubers is pointless now, as it builds so fast, and there aren't as many consequences to screwing up with it, and the medic can just avoid bombs if the pocket rocket jumps when he sees it.
Let's just go back to way things were. Uber vs Uber, and Kritz once in a while to surprise the other team, that was much more exciting to watch.
ShunThat's kind of the point to the Quick Fix and I'm okay with it
It is a fundamentally flawed point. Faster heal rate minimizes the effect of kritheals and heal management. This only serves to lower the medics skill.
Uber and Kritz are still effective in some situations due to that higher max health.
That is a problem. Both uber and kritz are more difficult to use and are less effective in allot of situations and breaks even in others. Also the nature of the faster healrate and build rate makes it a bitch to push into and the uber is to week against heavy turtling to push with causing stalemates.
But you don't want to pile on too many nerfs if you were to attempt to balance things.
It doesn't need nerfs. It needs scraped and redesigned.
A medigun that builds faster while primarily being good for defence WILL cause stalemates.
A medigun who's uber is great for defending but sucks at attacking WILL cause stalemates.
The ability to jump with your pocket is more useful when defending then attacking and WILL cause stalemates.
The lack of buffs to flanks makes pushing even harder and WILL cause stalemates.
Higher heal rates make a mockery of heal mechanics. Knowing when it is appropriate to build is in itself a skill. The ability to get out faster and jump away at will allows for sloppy positioning.
This whole medigun is a mess.
[quote=Shun]
That's kind of the point to the Quick Fix and I'm okay with it[/quote]
It is a fundamentally flawed point. Faster heal rate minimizes the effect of kritheals and heal management. This only serves to lower the medics skill.
[quote]Uber and Kritz are still effective in some situations due to that higher max health.[/quote]
That is a problem. Both uber and kritz are more difficult to use and are less effective in allot of situations and breaks even in others. Also the nature of the faster healrate and build rate makes it a bitch to push into and the uber is to week against heavy turtling to push with causing stalemates.
[quote]But you don't want to pile on too many nerfs if you were to attempt to balance things.[/quote] It doesn't need nerfs. It needs scraped and redesigned.
A medigun that builds faster while primarily being good for defence WILL cause stalemates.
A medigun who's uber is great for defending but sucks at attacking WILL cause stalemates.
The ability to jump with your pocket is more useful when defending then attacking and WILL cause stalemates.
The lack of buffs to flanks makes pushing even harder and WILL cause stalemates.
Higher heal rates make a mockery of heal mechanics. Knowing when it is appropriate to build is in itself a skill. The ability to get out faster and jump away at will allows for sloppy positioning.
This whole medigun is a mess.
"6s has become 'stale'."
-Robin Walker
"We're going to buff some of the underused weapons."
-Valve
"6s has become 'stale'."
-Robin Walker
"We're going to buff some of the underused weapons."
-Valve
Guys...
We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that TF2 plays differently depending on how you choose to play it.
Whether it be pubs, 6v6 or HL, the format you choose and the primary map pool (5cp or PL or A/D) determines what flavour of TF2 you play.
Some criticise TF2 because of this fact, citing that the jump from pub to competitive is too large but it's also the reason why TF2 has such a large player base.
Suppose 6v6 is the ONLY way you're supposed to play the game, all the pub servers have only the ESEA map rotation with maybe an extra 2 or 3 slots per side but same class limits. A lot of the items become unbalanced and unfun to play against.
The thing is, if TF2 only has one way to be played like a MOBA or a Quake style FPS it would have a fraction of the playerbase it has right now. What many considers a hindrance to competitive TF2 is also what makes it a successful game (not e-sport).
How does this relate to the QuickFix?
Well in pubs and HL, the QF is not overpowered at all, it's a perfectly balanced weapon, some might argue a bit too weak in HL.
It's unreasonable to expect Valve to nerf the QF to uselessness in pub just so we can get a working medigun.
The thing is that we should evaluate every weapon based on its merits and then ban/unban them for the format we choose to play.
Can we as a community get away from this notion that EVERY weapon has to be perfectly balanced in EVERY gamemode? Because that's never going to happen, it's always going to be an impossible goal.
At the end of the day this is a FPS. Every FPS comes down to who can aim, move and react better than the other team. Trying to drag TF2 away from its FPS roots into some DOTA-esque dream of constantly evolving meta is ridiculous.
And furthermore, I would like to point out that if DOTA had different maps (1 lane, 5 lanes, big maps, small maps, only 1 tower per lane, 3v3, 4v4, 6v6 etc) then it would run into the exact SAME problems TF2 runs into. Namely, some maps play well in "pub" but awful in "comp", some characters become overpowered and others become niche and/or useless, there would be 1 correct team makeup for each mode and due to some types of heroes being OP for that particular map layout you would have a form of "limits".
If you restricted TF2 to 1 map and 5v5 you could very easily change all the weapon stats to each be an equal'ish side-grade. The thing is you can't. SO STOP CHASING A FANTASY.
Guys...
We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that TF2 plays differently depending on how you choose to play it.
Whether it be pubs, 6v6 or HL, the format you choose and the primary map pool (5cp or PL or A/D) determines what flavour of TF2 you play.
Some criticise TF2 because of this fact, citing that the jump from pub to competitive is too large but it's also the reason why TF2 has such a large player base.
Suppose 6v6 is the ONLY way you're supposed to play the game, all the pub servers have only the ESEA map rotation with maybe an extra 2 or 3 slots per side but same class limits. A lot of the items become unbalanced and unfun to play against.
The thing is, if TF2 only has one way to be played like a MOBA or a Quake style FPS it would have a fraction of the playerbase it has right now. What many considers a hindrance to competitive TF2 is also what makes it a successful game (not e-sport).
How does this relate to the QuickFix?
Well in pubs and HL, the QF is not overpowered at all, it's a perfectly balanced weapon, some might argue a bit too weak in HL.
It's unreasonable to expect Valve to nerf the QF to uselessness in pub just so we can get a working medigun.
The thing is that we should evaluate every weapon based on its merits and then ban/unban them for the format we choose to play.
Can we as a community get away from this notion that EVERY weapon has to be perfectly balanced in EVERY gamemode? Because that's never going to happen, it's always going to be an impossible goal.
At the end of the day this is a FPS. Every FPS comes down to who can aim, move and react better than the other team. Trying to drag TF2 away from its FPS roots into some DOTA-esque dream of constantly evolving meta is ridiculous.
And furthermore, I would like to point out that if DOTA had different maps (1 lane, 5 lanes, big maps, small maps, only 1 tower per lane, 3v3, 4v4, 6v6 etc) then it would run into the exact SAME problems TF2 runs into. Namely, some maps play well in "pub" but awful in "comp", some characters become overpowered and others become niche and/or useless, there would be 1 correct team makeup for each mode and due to some types of heroes being OP for that particular map layout you would have a form of "limits".
If you restricted TF2 to 1 map and 5v5 you could very easily change all the weapon stats to each be an equal'ish side-grade. The thing is you can't. SO STOP CHASING A FANTASY.
If you make any significant nerfs to the quick fix it will no longer be viable in 6s.
People have quickly forgotten the kritz counter and are instead looking at lan strats where players were still figuring out ways to counter the quick fix. Once people started using other mediguns(still including quick fix), the games became much more enjoyable.
A lot of people are acting as if invite players are the law. But they still have to learn weapons and strats like anyone else. Instead of working with what they were comfortable with, they rolled quick fix 24/7 even though they had little prior experience running it. End result was heavies and snipers to slow down the gameplay rather than switching mediguns.
I do, however, think that the quick fix should have been banned when the buff was introduced. Wait until next season to evaluate the quick fix. I guarantee people would have had a better reaction to it if it wasn't overlooked like the other weapons in the update.
If you make any significant nerfs to the quick fix it will no longer be viable in 6s.
People have quickly forgotten the kritz counter and are instead looking at lan strats where players were still figuring out ways to counter the quick fix. Once people started using other mediguns(still including quick fix), the games became much more enjoyable.
A lot of people are acting as if invite players are the law. But they still have to learn weapons and strats like anyone else. Instead of working with what they were comfortable with, they rolled quick fix 24/7 even though they had little prior experience running it. End result was heavies and snipers to slow down the gameplay rather than switching mediguns.
I do, however, think that the quick fix should have been banned when the buff was introduced. Wait until next season to evaluate the quick fix. I guarantee people would have had a better reaction to it if it wasn't overlooked like the other weapons in the update.
The change that needs to happen to quick fix is that the person being healed during a quick fix charge should not receive the knock back negation. This would allow players to run uber and juggle a quick fixed player away long enough to obtain uber, while still being able to converge on the medic because he doesn't go flying. The main problem is there is nothing you can do to escape a quickfix and they automatically obtain the chargeffaster. Also uber needs to build at full rate without damaging yourself, the other 2 guns charge faster as it is, no need to punish a medic who can keep his team fully buffed.
The change that needs to happen to quick fix is that the person being healed during a quick fix charge should not receive the knock back negation. This would allow players to run uber and juggle a quick fixed player away long enough to obtain uber, while still being able to converge on the medic because he doesn't go flying. The main problem is there is nothing you can do to escape a quickfix and they automatically obtain the chargeffaster. Also uber needs to build at full rate without damaging yourself, the other 2 guns charge faster as it is, no need to punish a medic who can keep his team fully buffed.
Removing the overheal (not the healing) the medic receives when popping it might also help a bit.
Removing the overheal (not the healing) the medic receives when popping it might also help a bit.
I think removing the medic's overheal would render the weapon obsolete instantly because two hits of absolutely -anything- will do 150 damage. Quick fix could be run to mid for team buffs but you'd never ever ever see anyone push beyond mid with it unless it was a full wipe where the mid winner was still 6-up.
I like Platinum's idea would make it better for defense, but I just feel the weapon is unbalanced when it comes to offense/defense. It has great stats for big fights, ie mid or holding last, but it's virtually useless for pushing last against turtling teams. It either needs to be combined with other things (like the stupidly overpowered concherer) to have a successful last push or your team has to be able to ball up and get picks on the last push, but you'd have to be sure to go quickly enough that the enemy team can't get QF charge (32 seconds).
I really enjoyed using it, but I unfortunately agree that it needs serious tweaking before it should be allowed in ESEA 6v6. It's been used enough now to determine that one team running QF to mid will almost always win mid if the other team runs anything else. I do think that if it's allowed, teams will start to develop ways to counter it on mids while running other mediguns (which I assume will either mean they get hyper aggressive early and focus-fire picks, or they'll get super passive and let picks come to them) but I do think its negatives outweigh its positives at this time.
I think removing the medic's overheal would render the weapon obsolete instantly because two hits of absolutely -anything- will do 150 damage. Quick fix could be run to mid for team buffs but you'd never ever ever see anyone push beyond mid with it unless it was a full wipe where the mid winner was still 6-up.
I like Platinum's idea would make it better for defense, but I just feel the weapon is unbalanced when it comes to offense/defense. It has great stats for big fights, ie mid or holding last, but it's virtually useless for pushing last against turtling teams. It either needs to be combined with other things (like the stupidly overpowered concherer) to have a successful last push or your team has to be able to ball up and get picks on the last push, but you'd have to be sure to go quickly enough that the enemy team can't get QF charge (32 seconds).
I really enjoyed using it, but I unfortunately agree that it needs serious tweaking before it should be allowed in ESEA 6v6. It's been used enough now to determine that one team running QF to mid will almost always win mid if the other team runs anything else. I do think that if it's allowed, teams will start to develop ways to counter it on mids while running other mediguns (which I assume will either mean they get hyper aggressive early and focus-fire picks, or they'll get super passive and let picks come to them) but I do think its negatives outweigh its positives at this time.
rock paper scissor? no. QF being more powerfull than its optional mediguns? yes.
and i cant stress enough how easy it is to kite ubers with QF.
rock paper scissor? no. QF being more powerfull than its optional mediguns? yes.
and i cant stress enough how easy it is to kite ubers with QF.
it would be awesome to get all 4 lan medics on the next episode of fully charged to discuss the quick-fix. get some real discussion between people who've experienced it firsthand.
it would be awesome to get all 4 lan medics on the next episode of fully charged to discuss the quick-fix. get some real discussion between people who've experienced it firsthand.
Tang_Unit would be awesome to get all 4 lan medics on the next episode of fully charged to discuss the quick-fix. get some real discussion between people who've experienced it firsthand.
I think this is a great idea. Make this happen.
[quote=Tang_Un]it would be awesome to get all 4 lan medics on the next episode of fully charged to discuss the quick-fix. get some real discussion between people who've experienced it firsthand.[/quote]
I think this is a great idea. Make this happen.