Our team is always good at damage output but when it comes to an aggressive team we always lose. How do we defend from it?
An example: we recently played a team on snakewater. Their scouts would rush from bottom before the 2 soldiers jumped our combo. and the demoman and the med would +forward from their side to ours to protect the scouts and soldiers with stickies.
Our roamer would be on top, and me and the pocket would be at our side of mid and the scouts would be defensive and chip damage, it seems we always lose that way though.
So how do we stop an aggressive team like that?
Our team is always good at damage output but when it comes to an aggressive team we always lose. How do we defend from it?
An example: we recently played a team on snakewater. Their scouts would rush from bottom before the 2 soldiers jumped our combo. and the demoman and the med would +forward from their side to ours to protect the scouts and soldiers with stickies.
Our roamer would be on top, and me and the pocket would be at our side of mid and the scouts would be defensive and chip damage, it seems we always lose that way though.
So how do we stop an aggressive team like that?
and me and the pocket would be at our side of mid
it seems we always lose that way though.
gotta fight fire with fire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEhk5N32Tec
[quote]and me and the pocket would be at our side of mid[/quote]
[quote] it seems we always lose that way though.[/quote]
gotta fight fire with fire
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEhk5N32Tec[/youtube]
Well if they are extremely aggressive it sound like either they don't have much support of the medic or some players wont have the best heals. Sounds like you could try and let them come to you and set up traps or you could wait for someone to over commit and go for the med. I have no experience on a team so if this seems dumb, it probably is.
ORRRRR balls to the wall, hyper aggressive. Make them shit their pants
Well if they are extremely aggressive it sound like either they don't have much support of the medic or some players wont have the best heals. Sounds like you could try and let them come to you and set up traps or you could wait for someone to over commit and go for the med. I have no experience on a team so if this seems dumb, it probably is.
ORRRRR balls to the wall, hyper aggressive. Make them shit their pants
You, on most maps, need to match their aggression. If a team gets control of the point of snakewater, the mid is nearly over due to the positional advantage. To stop them from getting the positioning, you just have to match their aggression.
I think leaving your pocket with medic on this mid is pointless, as the pocket will just be forced to shoot uphill to the point and pray for directs, or shoot the people jumping your side. In the case of the latter, you are better off having a scout play the roll, and just face the fact it's a hard mid to keep your med alive on.
In short, matches they aggression by jumping your soldiers as theirs are, don't give them room to do what they want.
You, on most maps, need to match their aggression. If a team gets control of the point of snakewater, the mid is nearly over due to the positional advantage. To stop them from getting the positioning, you just have to match their aggression.
I think leaving your pocket with medic on this mid is pointless, as the pocket will just be forced to shoot uphill to the point and pray for directs, or shoot the people jumping your side. In the case of the latter, you are better off having a scout play the roll, and just face the fact it's a hard mid to keep your med alive on.
In short, matches they aggression by jumping your soldiers as theirs are, don't give them room to do what they want.
Double soldier bomb is a pretty common tactic on snake mid. Best responses are either to bomb both of your soldiers back at them to equalize the aggression or to play extremely passively, which means keep your scouts and roamer back while you field the initial bombs and then push forward with numbers. Put a scout on shack and another on left side and hitscan knockback will do a lot to help control the bombs. Normally the soldiers would jump and the scouts would follow, but if they're doing it the other way around your soldiers will chew them up. Just make sure that if you play passive you keep everyone buffed up, cuz you're sacrificing positioning for number advantage. That means no trading.
Double soldier bomb is a pretty common tactic on snake mid. Best responses are either to bomb both of your soldiers back at them to equalize the aggression or to play extremely passively, which means keep your scouts and roamer back while you field the initial bombs and then push forward with numbers. Put a scout on shack and another on left side and hitscan knockback will do a lot to help control the bombs. Normally the soldiers would jump and the scouts would follow, but if they're doing it the other way around your soldiers will chew them up. Just make sure that if you play passive you keep everyone buffed up, cuz you're sacrificing positioning for number advantage. That means no trading.
if youre gonna try to beat it with a passive style you need to be really good at focusing the same targets and hitting your shots
if youre gonna try to beat it with a passive style you need to be really good at focusing the same targets and hitting your shots
Pick one of your scouts to be the tank. When the mid is officially started, you're gonna get this scout 185, and +fwd with the heals on him.
Or, everyone, minus you and your demo, gets aggressive and goes into them (coordinate though, using communication and timing.) Then you and your demo push up behind them, and then you try to heal anyone who is about to die, trying to keep your team alive and hoping the other team is too hurt to fight anymore, or dead.
Those are a couple of things that came to my mind.
Could always get a good mentor to spectate your scrims and listen to comms. That's a good way for teams to get better at certain things like this.
Pick one of your scouts to be the tank. When the mid is officially started, you're gonna get this scout 185, and +fwd with the heals on him.
Or, everyone, minus you and your demo, gets aggressive and goes into them (coordinate though, using communication and timing.) Then you and your demo push up behind them, and then you try to heal anyone who is about to die, trying to keep your team alive and hoping the other team is too hurt to fight anymore, or dead.
Those are a couple of things that came to my mind.
Could always get a good mentor to spectate your scrims and listen to comms. That's a good way for teams to get better at certain things like this.
stay passive on the start of mid, keep your demo back and wait for them to jump, counter jump them and walk into them with demo + scout. depends on map though.
stay passive on the start of mid, keep your demo back and wait for them to jump, counter jump them and walk into them with demo + scout. depends on map though.
Give sections V and VI a good study: http://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html
LKincheloeGive sections V and VI a good study: http://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html
heh heh we're japanese so we gotta over simplify everything.
[quote=LKincheloe]Give sections V and VI a good study: http://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html[/quote]
heh heh we're japanese so we gotta over simplify everything.
crespiPick one of your scouts to be the tank. When the mid is officially started, you're gonna get this scout 185, and +fwd with the heals on him.
Can you sit in mumble with me when I play and notify me when mid has, indeed, officially started?
[quote=crespi]Pick one of your scouts to be the tank. When the mid is officially started, you're gonna get this scout 185, and +fwd with the heals on him. [/quote]
Can you sit in mumble with me when I play and notify me when mid has, indeed, officially started?
MikeikeikeikeikeikeLKincheloeGive sections V and VI a good study: http://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html
heh heh we're japanese so we gotta over simplify everything.
You can't possibly be this stupid
[quote=Mikeikeikeikeikeike][quote=LKincheloe]Give sections V and VI a good study: http://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html[/quote]
heh heh we're japanese so we gotta over simplify everything.[/quote]
You can't possibly be this stupid
alec_if youre gonna try to beat it with a passive style you need to be really good at focusing the same targets and hitting your shots
^^^
Play off your heals and out DM them, watch your flanks as well.
[quote=alec_]if youre gonna try to beat it with a passive style you need to be really good at focusing the same targets and hitting your shots[/quote]
^^^
Play off your heals and out DM them, watch your flanks as well.
Incoming long thoughts...
To me, aggression means you're playing by their terms - their game.
As for mids, you could try changing focus, get a pick [ie. jumper] and immediately walk across point together. This works great for maps such as snake [ie. both soldiers catwalk]/(sometimes)granary [***scouts play uptop***-> follow up your soldiers jumps ASAP]/ badlands [everyone choke, but demo/scout by balcony].
As for transitions, make sure everyone has a line of sight. Even try getting one of your scouts to "scout" tell whats in front after a buff. And the other to lag behind a little to have "sight checks" on areas behind [ie. flank spots/backcaps based on players left up on other team's failed push] . But keeping everyone relatively close to respond to dangers that can immediately be followed up by the other team, if not taken care of quickly.
So...
*Identify key issues for mids, adjust accordingly. [Are your agg players being followed up? Do we need to deal with an issue quickly, then follow up? etc]
*Try to stick together with clear sight lines on potential flanks/aggression [scouts/roamer and combo mentally]
*make the other team play your game, not theirs
Incoming long thoughts...
To me, aggression means [b]you're playing by their terms[/b] - their game.
As for mids, you could try changing focus, get a pick [ie. jumper] and [b]immediately [/b]walk across point together. This works great for maps such as snake [ie. both soldiers catwalk]/(sometimes)granary [***scouts play uptop***-> follow up your soldiers jumps ASAP]/ badlands [everyone choke, but demo/scout by balcony].
As for transitions, make sure everyone has a line of sight. Even try getting one of your scouts to "scout" tell whats in front after a buff. And the other to lag behind a little to have "sight checks" on areas behind [ie. flank spots/backcaps based on players left up on other team's failed push] . But keeping everyone relatively close to respond to dangers that can immediately be followed up by the other team, if not taken care of quickly.
So...
*Identify key issues for mids, adjust accordingly. [Are your agg players being followed up? Do we need to deal with an issue quickly, then follow up? etc]
*Try to stick together with clear sight lines on potential flanks/aggression [scouts/roamer and combo mentally]
*make the other team play your game, not theirs
idk if someone said this but just have a scout play up top and have a scout play shed while your soldiers bomb. Your pocket shouldn't really sit with you for mids. If you your soldiers do work, have your scout up top help while demo med push across point.
idk if someone said this but just have a scout play up top and have a scout play shed while your soldiers bomb. Your pocket shouldn't really sit with you for mids. If you your soldiers do work, have your scout up top help while demo med push across point.
inb4 blue coloured member comments and all your points are invalid.
inb4 blue coloured member comments and all your points are invalid.
Hold your scouts back to focus on the bombers, let your soldiers take care of the scouts.
Hold your scouts back to focus on the bombers, let your soldiers take care of the scouts.
slideinb4 blue coloured member comments and all your points are invalid.
SteveCBreak their legs
sorted.
[quote=slide]inb4 blue coloured member comments and all your points are invalid.[/quote]
[quote=SteveC]Break their legs[/quote]
sorted.
healing your scouts usually works so they don't die in 0.05 seconds
healing your scouts usually works so they don't die in 0.05 seconds
But in all seriousness back when I played with the Kapoww Krew in IM we just tried to out aggress them doing the following...
Jump both soldiers across point to do damage. This forces their attention to soldiers.
Have the demo and scouts immediately follow up with heals and W until you win.
You can also mix it up if your soldier can fast rollout behind them into their lower right health to distract and re-enter after your other soldier is on them.
Your demo should call who to focus based on the first sticky.
Things that will and may happen:
Your soldiers die.
Your med dies because he didn't run onto point or there were soldiers above.
You get lazy to develop any other strats for mid.
The goal here is to do alot of damage and lock them out. Generally most open teams will either just get wiped or kill your team with their own instead of backing out.
[i]But in all seriousness back when I played with the Kapoww Krew in IM we just tried to out aggress them doing the following...[/i]
Jump both soldiers across point to do damage. This forces their attention to soldiers.
Have the demo and scouts[b] immediately [/b]follow up with heals and W until you win.
You can also mix it up if your soldier can fast rollout behind them into their lower right health to distract and re-enter after your other soldier is on them.
Your demo should call who to focus based on the first sticky.
Things that will and may happen:
Your soldiers die.
Your med dies because he didn't run onto point or there were soldiers above.
You get lazy to develop any other strats for mid.
The goal here is to do alot of damage and lock them out. Generally most open teams will either just get wiped or kill your team with their own instead of backing out.
Hope your scouts don't have potato aim 8)
Hope your scouts don't have potato aim 8)
If a team is playing aggressive you have 2 options.
Out aggro them, run under their bombs, focus down their scouts or demo (map and team dependent), stay together and never look back.
If that doesn't work.
Play like the absolute most gigantic weenies that have ever existed, barely go to mid, wait for their first player to attack and focus the closest thing. If you still manage to give up the first death, pull your medic immediately and suicide theirs with your 3 remaining available combat classes (the one guy has to leave with the medic for building purposes).
If a team is playing aggressive you have 2 options.
Out aggro them, run under their bombs, focus down their scouts or demo (map and team dependent), stay together and never look back.
If that doesn't work.
Play like the absolute most gigantic weenies that have ever existed, barely go to mid, wait for their first player to attack and focus the closest thing. If you still manage to give up the first death, pull your medic immediately and suicide theirs with your 3 remaining available combat classes (the one guy has to leave with the medic for building purposes).