most of the time i hate hl because whenever i play it, there are no strats except when to uber and positioning, and i still roll through silver teams with zero effort. other times i have a close intense match with a scrim that i have against a half-decent team, where it does become pretty enjoyable

@TMP: Could you make sure that someone is streaming the match? I wanted to watch some of your scrims a few days ago but couldn't because no one was streaming.

:/

every tf2 forum thus far has been a popularity contest. well, with the exception of commft

#124 We really don't like streaming matches at the time but I can record my PoV locally and then stream it afterwards. I plan to start uploading all my demos anyways.

I don't mean to bash Highlander, I think it is fun and doesn't deserve to be flamed, but I think it has its problems (as much as 6s does).

the issue with HL is that there are too many players in a game with less than perfect balance and design.

In HL it's much more stagnant because it is much more difficult to punish a team's mistake just because of the amount of players on the map.

Imagine playing any sport with an extra 10-20 people on the field. It suddenly makes it a lot more difficult to accomplish the game's objectives not because of the skill of the opponents but because of the new cramped nature of the game. The best solution for this would be a bigger field, bigger boundaries, etc. But the tf2 we have now is what were stuck with.

TF2 came to the 6s format after many different types of experimental game modes,(5v5, 8v8, 7v7, etc) but 6v6 was accepted as it allowed players to competitively play without being restricted by the sandbox that is tf2.

Now is it appealing that you're allowed to get away with more individually in HL?
yes.

Is it appealing that your role and your actions may not have as many dire consequences of those playing 6s?
yes.

As Highlander players improve in skill and knowledge of tf2, they'll be looking to push their skill towards actually impacting the game in a more direct sense. Maybe a player who pursues Highlander will look more towards the team aspect (not that this is absent in 6s either) but most players pursue competition for individual purposes, perhaps to seek personal 'glory' and improvement. My theory is that as highlander players improve in skill, they'll be more inclined to move to 6s so that they can truly hone their abilities and talents as a player.

can you get cool frags and do neat plays in Highlander?
certainly.

however, the limits of Highlander's boundaries keep players from truly accomplishing things that are respective of their skill level (big attraction to newer inexperienced players.) Invite players can compete with newer level players, the format of the game is unarguably LIMITING.

One of the main reasons we all hate titles like CoD is that any player can impact the game to same limit at any time/any place. Highlander has a ceiling on what an individual player can do in the same regard. This is especially apparent when both teams are well practiced and neither make many mistakes.

Highlander isn't bad, but it hampers creativity and competition. In a community that already hates waiting around on last on gullywash for an advantage, the idea of sitting on a cart for 40 minutes or waiting for something important to happen with enough lasting impact to force you to make a game changing decision isn't popular to this community.

Until im proved wrong that Highlander has an equally intricate meta-game as 6s TF2, I will always see Highlander as a more casual game format (NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT) StarCraft may have 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, and FFA leagues but where players skill and decision making is most represented is in it's most popular game format (1v1). does this make the other formats invalid, boring, or obsolete? of course not. You can play whatever game tickles your fancy. Until I see highlander players cruising into the top levels of 6s play, and dominating at that level will I truly respect highlander, but to me it's just a transition into 6s, much in the same way tf2lobby is a transition into 6s.

tl;dr

TF2 is a sandbox, how the fuck are you supposed to enjoy building a sand castle with 18 people in the sandbox when the sandbox barely supports 12.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj23pMdQBZ8

>>>BLOG POST DONT READ IF NOT INTO CAPNFAPN AND HIS retarded AMAZING OPINIONS<<<<

Even though I hardly ever play HL, i do think its really fun and that the 6's players that go around saying shit like "omg lol u main pyro haha ez class spam right click get crit rawket lol reddit idiot" are really stupid. Sure, maybe its easier to be a good pyro than it is to be a good scout, but its still difficult and more importantly, its fun.

Maybe the game wasn't designed to be 9v9, but the format is still interesting and its cool to see the weird classes like spy and pyro played at their best against the best even if they aren't the most important people on the team.

im pretty sure people that play duels in Quake live dont say bad things about people that mainly play CA, so why do 6v6 players say mean things about HL players and vice versa :<

Yes, I know that this thread was pretty good about not flaming each other about the formats but i know that ive seen it before.

if they take themselves or CA seriously, then they certainly do

o wow i feel stupid now.

if anything, the biggest problem with hl balance-wise is that spy and pyro and the like are just worse than some of the more important classes (esp scout/demo/sniper)

like, it may have been less noticeable when the top teams had like the best pyro in the world and then like an open soldier, but now it's just painful how much better some classes are than others

better retract that statement since you just got 5-0 on granary

bsc, I totally agree with your post, very well put. Mustard, the other classes are definitely not worse than the main 6s classes, but since they are much less mobile, they are forced to be situational classes.

the problem isn't with highlander, it's that tf2 is actually a shit game that doesn't support a competitive mode of that caliber

if they're more situational, they're worse. it's not like, along with forcing you to use 1 of every class, hl also forces you to only play in situations where those classes are worse.

if you could choose between the hl setup or 2 scouts instead of a spy, which would you pick?

The thing is, when all teams are forced to have 1 of each, they are no longer 'worse' classes, because there will always be a situation that they are useful. Since there's always a spy, there's always good reason to have a pyro hanging around. Since there's always an engie and sniper, there's good reason to have a spy around. Since there's always a heavy, having a sniper is good. Those classes might only be considered 'lesser' classes if you look strictly at the 6v6 format. But looking at a larger scale, those classes can go toe-to-toe with any cookie cutter class in terms of pure DM.

And I would choose highlander set up. If I wanted 2 scouts, I'd play 6s. Highlander is fun because all classes are played, so no matter which one you enjoy playing the most in pubs, you can play it in highlander. If spy was replaced by scout, I think a lot of the highlander community would quit. Not just the spies, but the people who enjoy seeing one of every class.

you missed my point. I'm not saying 2 scouts would be more fun. I'm saying that 2 scouts would be BETTER. you'd have a higher chance of winning.

also, the forcing situation thing is simply untrue. if you were playing 6v6 and the other team ran a heavy, a sniper, a pyro and a spy, would it force you to offclass too?

no, you'd run cookie cutter and destroy them.

I'm not saying hl is less fun. I'm saying that, at the highest levels, half of your team will inherently ALWAYS do more work than the other half. your engi, pyro and spy will not do shit in comparison to your scout or demo or sniper. that's a fact.

mustardopenlord getting plus fragged wtf

demoman > all

you should have been there when he casted a highlander game people were actually complimenting him out loud

crazy right???

HL as a game mode is just kind of trash really. It's a fun mode, and it is an interesting idea, but it's blatantly obvious that all the classes are not on an "equal" plane. Scout, demoman, and sniper are basically on a tier of their own. If your scout demoman, and sniper are out playing the other teams, odds are you are going to win. Classes like soldier, pyro, and engineer(outside of payload.) are to a degree important, but the difference between having a pretty good and great soldier is not nearly as important, as having a pretty good and great sniper.

It's basically like HL has 4-5 roamers(as in people saying roamer can't do much.)

If by "do work" you mean get points/frags or do tons of damage remember that this game is team fortress and that's only half the game. To compaire to 6's for you, roamers don't always top frag.(got ninja'd) So yeah...the fragging classes will get frags. What everyone here defending HL is trying to say and I guess I'm going to reiterate is every class has a place in highlander and can contribute.
At the high levels you do see work done by all classes. Who saw cbear pressure the med and force uber like twice on swiftwater? If your auxiliaries (as I call them) are not doing work your teamwork needs adjusting.
How can you put points to a blocked uber by airblast? Does a spy need 3 points for an uber drop? Quantifying scores by any metric damage/frags/blowjobs is not really how highlander at least is played. It's who wins and who has fun.

again, you're conflating two points which weakens your argument

the first is that hl is fun with all the classes and ain't no changin that. I agree. I love hl!

the second is that the hl classes are just as useful as the 6s classes, just "in their own special way". um, no. if they were, THEY'D BE USED IN 6S, WHERE THEY'RE ALSO ALLOWED. demo is better than pyro. scout is better than spy. FACT. EVEN FACTORING IN all the airblasts, med picks, etc., those classes are just much worse. if you won't even admit that much then no one can have an honest discussion about the game mode.

just in case anyone is just skimming through here and missed this line, i want to bring attention to it

How about this scenario. You have to play a HL match with 8 people. Your demo man is missing. Would you rather play without a demoman or would you have, say, your spy, play demo?

.

Different classes have different strengths. It just so happens that some of the strengths like high aoe damage and agility matter more in most circumstances than others like obnoxious disruption or high hp. It's why there are offclasses in 6s, after all.

However, don't count the more situational classes out. You just have to force the situations they're good in. Also, you can create some interesting synergies with the classes to amplify strengths and cover weaknesses. Accenting a demo with a pyro creates a stupidly strong combination, as they both cover the other's deficiencies stupidly well.

I call them auxiliaries for a reason, but the "fact" is calling a scout better than a pyro is just flat out wrong no matter how you spin it. The current meta may be that scouts/soldier/demo dominate, but that can be wiped away in a flash.
ie. Warmfront middle at lan? Gpit Ironman? good examples of a main heavy.
I'm not saying you're wrong in saying the there are reasons the current meta exist, but just a bit overzealous with your caps and demonizing of other classes.

I don't even know why we're even this far off-topic. Let this thread die plz. I now regret even posting. That said, I stand by what I said.

In HL running certain classes means that other classes are more justified. For example, running spy all the time is a bad idea, no matter how you look at it, the most effective spy is when the other team is not aware you have one. Having a spy all the time makes him less effective, since the other team will spy check more, check their backs more and defend their combo/sentry better. It is self-defeating in every way.

But what it does do is help justify the perma-pyro, since the other team is always running a spy, a pyro can be justified all the time, instead of the situational needs.

There is also less focus on speed in HL, partly due to map choices and partly to do with the number of players, so once you take out that factor the other classes most glaring weakness tends to not matter as much.

I don't think that anyone is claiming that those classes are useless...

.

This is exactly the purpose of Newbie Mixes, which from what I've heard, have been going pretty strong since they started back up a few weeks ago thanks to Vick.