miloi think you guys need to open your eyes... if it didn't happen while on client then no one is getting banned and you can't have a community vote to ban someone from esea, thats just not how it works over at esea
lets not forget how esea functions with $$$ in mind
However, if we had zero tolerance for cheaters, phrak would be cut from his team, labeled a cheater, remind people not to play with cheaters, and effectively keep such cheaters out from league play.
But it won't happen. Because from evidence from this thread, people are OK with cheaters. Which is very upsetting. We can only hope some people take responsible actions.
Props to pug channel admins for the bans.
[quote=milo]i think you guys need to open your eyes... if it didn't happen while on client then no one is getting banned and you can't have a community vote to ban someone from esea, thats just not how it works over at esea
lets not forget how esea functions with $$$ in mind[/quote]
However, if we had zero tolerance for cheaters, phrak would be cut from his team, labeled a cheater, remind people not to play with cheaters, and effectively keep such cheaters out from league play.
But it won't happen. Because from evidence from this thread, people are OK with cheaters. Which is very upsetting. We can only hope some people take responsible actions.
Props to pug channel admins for the bans.
Probably refining his hacks and testing on alts if they're noticeable 8}
He's probably scripting his rollouts as we speak
Probably refining his hacks and testing on alts if they're noticeable 8}
He's probably scripting his rollouts as we speak
2sy_morphiendHow is it not plausible in your mind that a guy clearly caught to be hacking on one alt might be using them on others? If your logic of "An alt is an alt for a reason" holds up, then there should be no reason to believe that he isn't cheating on his other alts as well.
I guess I'm of the crazy mindset that he is innocent until proven guilty, and while we can basically prove an alt of his cheated, we can't say one way or the other whether:
1) It was or was not a shared account that many people used to up their MGE score, where one of the users then decided to test some cheats on.
2) It was his account alone and a way to be dumb and troll TF2 lobbies in his downtime with cheats.
3) A test run to gauge his freshly minted cheats he planned to use on every account.
4) Something else entirely.
I don't buy the third option because I don't think anyone who had 1 account VAC banned for cheating
[quote=2sy_morphiend]
How is it not plausible in your mind that a guy clearly caught to be hacking on one alt might be using them on others? If your logic of "An alt is an alt for a reason" holds up, then there should be no reason to believe that he [I]isn't[/I] cheating on his other alts as well.[/quote]
I guess I'm of the crazy mindset that he is innocent until proven guilty, and while we can basically prove an alt of his cheated, we can't say one way or the other whether:
1) It was or was not a shared account that many people used to up their MGE score, where one of the users then decided to test some cheats on.
2) It was his account alone and a way to be dumb and troll TF2 lobbies in his downtime with cheats.
3) A test run to gauge his freshly minted cheats he planned to use on every account.
4) Something else entirely.
I don't buy the third option because I don't think anyone who had 1 account VAC banned for cheating
shrtBut it won't happen. Because from evidence from this thread, people are OK with cheaters. Which is very upsetting. We can only hope some people take responsible actions.
Phrakture doesn't cheat on his account, doesn't cheat in scrims, and doesn't cheat in matches. What is the problem here? The account was fucking banned, he probably even used a shitty public hack just so he could have a little bit of fun(which this was probably the only time he ever did hack for any reason). If his alt got banned why in the world would you think he's using it on his main account?
People are curious, people go and play with them on an alt account. Video games are video games, and if there isn't a prize involved, a tournament, or important practice time I don't see the issue. He did it for fun, and he did it one time.
If you're gonna accuse Phrakture of hacking, why not accuse everyone else in invite as well? Launch a full on investigation, and when you find out they used an alt from 2008 to hack on a tc_hydro pub, ban them for life from every competitive league.
[quote=shrt]But it won't happen. Because from evidence from this thread, people are OK with cheaters. Which is very upsetting. We can only hope some people take responsible actions.
[/quote]
Phrakture doesn't cheat on his account, doesn't cheat in scrims, and doesn't cheat in matches. What is the problem here? The account was fucking banned, he probably even used a shitty public hack just so he could have a little bit of fun(which this was probably the only time he ever did hack for any reason). If his alt got banned why in the world would you think he's using it on his main account?
People are curious, people go and play with them on an alt account. Video games are video games, and if there isn't a prize involved, a tournament, or important practice time I don't see the issue. He did it for fun, and he did it one time.
If you're gonna accuse Phrakture of hacking, why not accuse everyone else in invite as well? Launch a full on investigation, and when you find out they used an alt from 2008 to hack on a tc_hydro pub, ban them for life from every competitive league.
2sy_morphiend
For the most part that's true. There were plenty of people that asked for these people to be banned originally though, and as someone that did play with Hoegie I can at least offer my explanation for it. When I did play with him it had been more than a year since he hacked and we required him to record himself playing.
the problem with this is hoegie was a god when he wasnt recording and could barely hold his own against mid open demos when he was
[quote=2sy_morphiend]
For the most part that's true. There were plenty of people that asked for these people to be banned originally though, and as someone that did play with Hoegie I can at least offer my explanation for it. When I did play with him it had been more than a year since he hacked and we required him to record himself playing.[/quote]
the problem with this is hoegie was a god when he wasnt recording and could barely hold his own against mid open demos when he was
DeepIf you're gonna accuse Phrakture of hacking, why not accuse everyone else in invite as well? Launch a full on investigation, and when you find out they used an alt from 2008 to hack on a tc_hydro pub, ban them for life from every competitive league.
as much as i hate using the term "going full retard" i am at a loss to describe this application of the slippry slope as anything other than that
[quote=Deep]
If you're gonna accuse Phrakture of hacking, why not accuse everyone else in invite as well? Launch a full on investigation, and when you find out they used an alt from 2008 to hack on a tc_hydro pub, ban them for life from every competitive league.[/quote]
as much as i hate using the term "going full retard" i am at a loss to describe this application of the slippry slope as anything other than that
BLoodSireIf it had been that he had a primary account, it was VACCed, and then he had a new primary account, then I would be on board with you. I just don't see the reason of hanging a guy based on something he maybe did, that as far as we know (and we can only make decisions based on what we know), only happened on an account that has zero relevance to the competitive aspect of our community.
Why would a ban be warranted in the case of his primary account being VAC'd and then using another account? Ostensibly because the guy showed an intent to cheat in a competitive setting so the justification behind the ban is to prevent the guy from playing. You're banning the person who is responsible and not the account, because the account doesn't make the decision to hack.
So we know that it is phrakture's alt, on his ip, on at least one of the computer's that he plays tf2 on, previously used by him and you don't think we can be reasonably certain that it's him?
What you're saying is equivalent to so long as you aren't caught cheating on your main account in a match and found by client then it doesn't matter if you're cheating at all. We know definitively that it's this guy, but because he wasn't as much of a mouth-breather as you would have to be to test hacks on your main account then he gets a free pass?
Alternatively, what you're saying is that it's alright to ban a guy who's hacking to gain an advantage, but hacking to fuck around is alright. In which case, we better start getting out the forensics teams while we ponder the motivation for hacking.
[quote=BLoodSire]If it had been that he had a primary account, it was VACCed, and then he had a new primary account, then I would be on board with you. I just don't see the reason of hanging a guy based on something he maybe did, that as far as we know (and we can only make decisions based on what we know), only happened on an account that has zero relevance to the competitive aspect of our community.[/quote]
Why would a ban be warranted in the case of his primary account being VAC'd and then using another account? Ostensibly because the guy showed an intent to cheat in a competitive setting so the justification behind the ban is to prevent the guy from playing. You're banning the person who is responsible and not the account, because the account doesn't make the decision to hack.
So we know that it is phrakture's alt, on his ip, on at least one of the computer's that he plays tf2 on, previously used by him and you don't think we can be reasonably certain that it's him?
What you're saying is equivalent to so long as you aren't caught cheating on your main account in a match and found by client then it doesn't matter if you're cheating at all. We know definitively that it's this guy, but because he wasn't as much of a mouth-breather as you would have to be to test hacks on your main account then he gets a free pass?
Alternatively, what you're saying is that it's alright to ban a guy who's hacking to gain an advantage, but hacking to fuck around is alright. In which case, we better start getting out the forensics teams while we ponder the motivation for hacking.
BLoodSireI saw the IP link, and I saw the lobby hack. I did not see where those two were linked. Unless the lobby stats log IP (do they? I honestly might be mistaken if they do, I'm completely ignorant to what the stats log and I admit it) then saying it was him hacking in that lobby is conjecture. In fact, saying he hacked that lobby is itself conjecture. It's circumstantial. Looks bad, and I would say that player was cheating myself, but none of us KNOW.
Trust me, it was really obvious that he was hacking in the lobby.
EDIT: And yeah, it was just a lobby and everyone else there blew it off, but it was a pretty fucking disrespectful move to shit on community players like that.
[quote=BLoodSire]
I saw the IP link, and I saw the lobby hack. I did not see where those two were linked. Unless the lobby stats log IP (do they? I honestly might be mistaken if they do, I'm completely ignorant to what the stats log and I admit it) then saying it was [i]him[/i] hacking in that lobby is conjecture. In fact, saying he hacked that lobby is itself conjecture. It's circumstantial. Looks bad, and I would say that player [i]was[/i] cheating myself, but none of us KNOW.
[/quote]
Trust me, it was really obvious that he was hacking in the lobby.
EDIT: And yeah, it was just a lobby and everyone else there blew it off, but it was a pretty fucking disrespectful move to shit on community players like that.
warclowd cheated and nobody gave a fuck, i say just give him another chance imo
warclowd cheated and nobody gave a fuck, i say just give him another chance imo
phobiawarclowd cheated and nobody gave a fuck, i say just give him another chance imo
who the fuck is warclowd
[quote=phobia]warclowd cheated and nobody gave a fuck, i say just give him another chance imo[/quote]
who the fuck is warclowd
defyphobiawarclowd cheated and nobody gave a fuck, i say just give him another chance imo
who the fuck is warclowd
exactly, if it was a no namer who cheated noone would care
[quote=defy][quote=phobia]warclowd cheated and nobody gave a fuck, i say just give him another chance imo[/quote]
who the fuck is warclowd[/quote]
exactly, if it was a no namer who cheated noone would care
phobiawarclowd cheated and nobody gave a fuck, i say just give him another chance imo
Were you even around during all of the hackusation threads? Be it warclowd, ametrine, hoegie, beat, or as far back as ezell the threads always blew up and we had this same discussion about cheating every time. The only difference is that a lot of time has passed for those players. I agree with the ETF2L policy of banning for a year or so when a player is caught cheating.
[quote=phobia]warclowd cheated and nobody gave a fuck, i say just give him another chance imo[/quote] Were you even around during all of the hackusation threads? Be it warclowd, ametrine, hoegie, beat, or as far back as ezell the threads always blew up and we had this same discussion about cheating every time. The only difference is that a lot of time has passed for those players. I agree with the ETF2L policy of banning for a year or so when a player is caught cheating.
defyphobiawarclowd cheated and nobody gave a fuck, i say just give him another chance imo
who the fuck is warclowd
with a dance number
[quote=defy][quote=phobia]warclowd cheated and nobody gave a fuck, i say just give him another chance imo[/quote]
who the fuck is warclowd[/quote]
with a dance number
Vortexphobiawarclowd cheated and nobody gave a fuck, i say just give him another chance imo
Were you even around during all of the hackusation threads? Be it warclowd, ametrine, hoegie, beat, or as far back as ezell the threads always blew up and we had this same discussion about cheating every time. The only difference is that a lot of time has passed for those players. I agree with the ETF2L policy of banning for a year or so when a player is caught cheating.
i was around during the beat/warclowd hackusation threads on natf2 and yea, there was a few pages about it, but not 13 lmao
[quote=Vortex][quote=phobia]warclowd cheated and nobody gave a fuck, i say just give him another chance imo[/quote] Were you even around during all of the hackusation threads? Be it warclowd, ametrine, hoegie, beat, or as far back as ezell the threads always blew up and we had this same discussion about cheating every time. The only difference is that a lot of time has passed for those players. I agree with the ETF2L policy of banning for a year or so when a player is caught cheating.[/quote]
i was around during the beat/warclowd hackusation threads on natf2 and yea, there was a few pages about it, but not 13 lmao
I'm saying, I personally draw a definitive line between cheating with the account you intent to compete with, and intending to cheat with an account that you use to mess around with.
Until there is proof that he cheated in a more relevant setting (i.e. in a scrim, or a pug, or a match) I will continue to be unmoved. I just don't see the big deal. The very fact that he signed on an alt and joined a lobby to do these things kind of shows me he was just being a clown. His MGE antics on the account back that up.
Lastly, do the lobby stats log IP? I'm not running with the shared account theory, but I don't know enough of how lobby logs information. We can see the stats fine, but other than finding his IP through MGE to expose the alt, how are we certain it was his IP hacking in the lobby?
I'm not doubting it wasn't, just as far as I can see, we're assuming it is.
I'm saying, I personally draw a definitive line between cheating with the account you intent to compete with, and intending to cheat with an account that you use to mess around with.
Until there is proof that he cheated in a more relevant setting (i.e. in a scrim, or a pug, or a match) I will continue to be unmoved. I just don't see the big deal. The very fact that he signed on an alt and joined a lobby to do these things kind of shows me he was just being a clown. His MGE antics on the account back that up.
Lastly, do the lobby stats log IP? I'm not running with the shared account theory, but I don't know enough of how lobby logs information. We can see the stats fine, but other than finding his IP through MGE to expose the alt, how are we certain it was his IP hacking in the lobby?
I'm not doubting it wasn't, just as far as I can see, we're assuming it is.
How is a pug more relevant than a lobby? Is it just our community's general elitism that "pugs are real games" and lobbies are to fuck around in that makes it okay to cheat in one but not the other?
How is a pug more relevant than a lobby? Is it just our community's general elitism that "pugs are real games" and lobbies are to fuck around in that makes it okay to cheat in one but not the other?
BLoodSireUntil there is proof that he cheated in a more relevant setting (i.e. in a scrim, or a pug, or a match) I will continue to be unmoved. I just don't see the big deal. The very fact that he signed on an alt and joined a lobby to do these things kind of shows me he was just being a clown. His MGE antics on the account back that up.
You know, some people get their first exposure to competitive TF2 and especially 6s through tf2lobby. Experienced players coming into a lobby and hacking just sends out the message that players in lobbies aren't worth being taken seriously. It's disrespectful and frankly I have no idea how you can justify anyone cheating anywhere - even if it's "just" a pub server, the people playing there should be allowed to play without some douchebag coming along with triggerbot and ruining their experience.
[quote=BLoodSire]
Until there is proof that he cheated in a more relevant setting (i.e. in a scrim, or a pug, or a match) I will continue to be unmoved. I just don't see the big deal. The very fact that he signed on an alt and joined a lobby to do these things kind of shows me he was just being a clown. His MGE antics on the account back that up.
[/quote]
You know, some people get their first exposure to competitive TF2 and especially 6s through tf2lobby. Experienced players coming into a lobby and hacking just sends out the message that players in lobbies aren't worth being taken seriously. It's disrespectful and frankly I have no idea how you can justify anyone cheating anywhere - even if it's "just" a pub server, the people playing there should be allowed to play without some douchebag coming along with triggerbot and ruining their experience.
ArcadeBLoodSireUntil there is proof that he cheated in a more relevant setting (i.e. in a scrim, or a pug, or a match) I will continue to be unmoved. I just don't see the big deal. The very fact that he signed on an alt and joined a lobby to do these things kind of shows me he was just being a clown. His MGE antics on the account back that up.
You know, some people get their first exposure to competitive TF2 and especially 6s through tf2lobby. Experienced players coming into a lobby and hacking just sends out the message that players in lobbies aren't worth being taken seriously. It's disrespectful and frankly I have no idea how you can justify anyone cheating anywhere - even if it's "just" a pub server, the people playing there should be allowed to play without some douchebag coming along with triggerbot and ruining their experience.
To be fair, lobbies are pretty bad anyways. usually people with some comp experience just troll them so newbies are fucked anyways... kinda makes me mad that people do that
[quote=Arcade][quote=BLoodSire]
Until there is proof that he cheated in a more relevant setting (i.e. in a scrim, or a pug, or a match) I will continue to be unmoved. I just don't see the big deal. The very fact that he signed on an alt and joined a lobby to do these things kind of shows me he was just being a clown. His MGE antics on the account back that up.
[/quote]
You know, some people get their first exposure to competitive TF2 and especially 6s through tf2lobby. Experienced players coming into a lobby and hacking just sends out the message that players in lobbies aren't worth being taken seriously. It's disrespectful and frankly I have no idea how you can justify anyone cheating anywhere - even if it's "just" a pub server, the people playing there should be allowed to play without some douchebag coming along with triggerbot and ruining their experience.[/quote]
To be fair, lobbies are pretty bad anyways. usually people with some comp experience just troll them so newbies are fucked anyways... kinda makes me mad that people do that
ArcadeYou know, some people get their first exposure to competitive TF2 and especially 6s through tf2lobby. Experienced players coming into a lobby and hacking just sends out the message that players in lobbies aren't worth being taken seriously. It's disrespectful and frankly I have no idea how you can justify anyone cheating anywhere - even if it's "just" a pub server, the people playing there should be allowed to play without some douchebag coming along with triggerbot and ruining their experience.
I don't disagree with you. I think what he did was stupid. Maybe I've just been around gaming for too long, but I think this "offense" is menial. If he came on after this post and said, "It was me, I cheated in that lobby for the giggles." I'd see it as the dick-move that it was and care just about as much as I do now.
I differentiate between lobby and the other competitive formats not to belittle lobby (it gets along just fine without my help), I only mean to make aware the various levels of removal this is from something that is more relevant to our scene. I.E. not his main account, not his main-class, not our competition.
[quote=Arcade]
You know, some people get their first exposure to competitive TF2 and especially 6s through tf2lobby. Experienced players coming into a lobby and hacking just sends out the message that players in lobbies aren't worth being taken seriously. It's disrespectful and frankly I have no idea how you can justify anyone cheating anywhere - even if it's "just" a pub server, the people playing there should be allowed to play without some douchebag coming along with triggerbot and ruining their experience.[/quote] I don't disagree with you. I think what he did was stupid. Maybe I've just been around gaming for too long, but I think this "offense" is menial. If he came on after this post and said, "It was me, I cheated in that lobby for the giggles." I'd see it as the dick-move that it was and care just about as much as I do now.
I differentiate between lobby and the other competitive formats not to belittle lobby (it gets along just fine without my help), I only mean to make aware the various levels of removal this is from something that is more relevant to our scene. I.E. not his main account, not his main-class, not our competition.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g-nniO1WN4&feature=c4-overview&list=UUTu82QwOnouLvBrc1-00JWg[/youtube]
no wonder phrakture dodged BSG lan
no wonder phrakture dodged BSG lan
conductordefyphobiawarclowd cheated and nobody gave a fuck, i say just give him another chance imo
who the fuck is warclowd
with a dance number
he also admitted it like 2 hours later in the thread that was made, said it was a huge mistake and that he was sorry
i think theres a big difference between owning up to cheating on an alt immediately and ignoring it/claiming it didnt happen
[quote=conductor][quote=defy][quote=phobia]warclowd cheated and nobody gave a fuck, i say just give him another chance imo[/quote]
who the fuck is warclowd[/quote]
with a dance number[/quote]
he also admitted it like 2 hours later in the thread that was made, said it was a huge mistake and that he was sorry
i think theres a big difference between owning up to cheating on an alt immediately and ignoring it/claiming it didnt happen
ban every hacker and cheater unless they prove innocent
if we did that not only we wouldn't have to worry about asses in invite but also stupid DDoSers making their way to the top forcing 5v6
ban every hacker and cheater unless they prove innocent
if we did that not only we wouldn't have to worry about asses in invite but also stupid DDoSers making their way to the top forcing 5v6
Guilty until proven innocent doesn't work. Never has never will. You absolutely cannot prove he cheats in matches so saying he should be banned is purely your opinion on what you think he might have done which means dick all to esea. He's not helping himself at all by pussying out though. The only real way to get yourself out of it is bite the bullet own up to your mistake and deal with the consequences... then move on.
Guilty until proven innocent doesn't work. Never has never will. You absolutely cannot prove he cheats in matches so saying he should be banned is purely your opinion on what you think he might have done which means dick all to esea. He's not helping himself at all by pussying out though. The only real way to get yourself out of it is bite the bullet own up to your mistake and deal with the consequences... then move on.
Suggestion: Ban phrakture from all MGE servers and wipe the stats from his accounts.
Suggestion: Ban phrakture from all MGE servers and wipe the stats from his accounts.
shrtSuggestion: Ban phrakture from all MGE servers and wipe the stats from his accounts.
a punishment worse than death
[quote=shrt]Suggestion: Ban phrakture from all MGE servers and wipe the stats from his accounts.[/quote]
a punishment worse than death
shrtSuggestion: Ban phrakture from all MGE servers and wipe the stats from his accounts.
We're trying to make sure hackers aren't playing in our leagues, not making sure they kill themselves.
The fact that there are people who seriously question whether or not that alt is actually phrakture's is almost unbelievable. He publicly owned up to it being his alt previously, it fed mge ELO to his other alts, and everyone else accused in this thread has owned up to having the alt or it being someone else playing in their house (which makes the IP association pretty much accepted fact).
You can re-label and make up your own motivations for what he did and what you think is worthy of being banned, but don't pretend like it wasn't phrakture sitting in that chair. Either you think we ban hackers or you place your faith in the client I guess.
[quote=shrt]Suggestion: Ban phrakture from all MGE servers and wipe the stats from his accounts.[/quote]
We're trying to make sure hackers aren't playing in our leagues, not making sure they kill themselves.
The fact that there are people who seriously question whether or not that alt is actually phrakture's is almost unbelievable. He publicly owned up to it being his alt previously, it fed mge ELO to his other alts, and everyone else accused in this thread has owned up to having the alt or it being someone else playing in their house (which makes the IP association pretty much accepted fact).
You can re-label and make up your own motivations for what he did and what you think is worthy of being banned, but don't pretend like it wasn't phrakture sitting in that chair. Either you think we ban hackers or you place your faith in the client I guess.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/VidQB21.jpg[/img]
http://www.tf2newbs.com/sourcebans/index.php?p=banlist&advSearch=98.206.168.231&advType=ip
does phrakture live with pascal or is he also pascal?
california_dreaminhttp://www.tf2newbs.com/sourcebans/index.php?p=banlist&advSearch=98.206.168.231&advType=ip
does phrakture live with pascal or is he also pascal?
phrakture is pascal's boyfriends' brother in real life.
[quote=california_dreamin]http://www.tf2newbs.com/sourcebans/index.php?p=banlist&advSearch=98.206.168.231&advType=ip
does phrakture live with pascal or is he also pascal?[/quote]
phrakture is pascal's boyfriends' brother in real life.