so I have to ask what's going to happen to NA Counter Strike now?
The ESEA abuse thread
posted in
TF2 General Discussion
some shitties got upset and left but anybody whos any kind of decent at the game understands theres no point to na cs without esea
some shitties got upset and left but anybody whos any kind of decent at the game understands theres no point to na cs without esea
There is a couple of truths, some misinformation, and tons of speculation regarding the ESEA trial. I had our work lawyers quickly look over a few documents yesterday so I want to point out a couple things that they said.
1) This was a civil trial, not a criminal. It's unlikely that a criminal trial would even work very well, since there is very little federal laws protecting internet privacy for the population.
2) The State of NJ is in a tough spot, even if they really want to push to lawsuit, it would be a tough thing for a state to do with limited technical "experts" While they are required by law to only say what they believe is the truth, it's generally going to be a truth that one person explains to the ADA.
3)Something about, I forgot this part b/c he was talking quickly, without fed support it becomes more difficult since it's not just NJ residents.
4) The amount of money that NJ would have to spend on a trial like this would be VERY hefty, since it would involve many paid computer experts that states do not generally employ at the state and local level with typically state trials. This would make them always want to settle.
5) Even though the defendants did not admit guilt, it gives a good start for the class action suit to start probing.
Regarding the AC, which he couldn't say anything about, so this is all me.
Yes, how the court document explains it, is how an AC needs to work. But, there is a few things that has bothered me to the point that I got banned for asking them.
1) People within the TF2 community explains that the bitcoin did not effect but no one can completely say that is true. I think this because I pushed Lpkane on the uninstall issue very hard, after the ban, I came back using my VPN and became an ass and pushed harder. I am not sure if the post of his is still there, but he responded with something like "how do you expect me to answer a question like that with the class action still in front of me.
2) Regarding the inability to uninstall, which has been proven to be true, why would you code this into an AC? If you need to the client active to get into ESEA servers, and active to stay in ESEA servers, there would be no reason for an AC to act like that since after it's off, cheating is nothing to ESEA. Consider the fact that you can have a VAC ban and still play ESEA.
3) If the AC can reinstall itself, what would've stopped it from becoming active on a hidden startup. While this DIDN'T happen yet, if the bitcoining wasn't found, this could've been a future addition.
4) This is part lawyer question and part mine. Why would a business give up so much of his day to day decision making if there wasn't more wrongdoing that could be found. Yes, money could be a factor, but in the end you are forcing a 3rd party to have the last call. Depending on the person and the new privacy statement, this could mean that the traditional ways that an AC cheats works MAY not be allowed. That could force a huge drop in subs, which in the long run could be worse than the 1 million full fine.
I have more, but I think this is getting long and I'm starving so I will add more later.
There is a couple of truths, some misinformation, and tons of speculation regarding the ESEA trial. I had our work lawyers quickly look over a few documents yesterday so I want to point out a couple things that they said.
1) This was a civil trial, not a criminal. It's unlikely that a criminal trial would even work very well, since there is very little federal laws protecting internet privacy for the population.
2) The State of NJ is in a tough spot, even if they really want to push to lawsuit, it would be a tough thing for a state to do with limited technical "experts" While they are required by law to only say what they believe is the truth, it's generally going to be a truth that one person explains to the ADA.
3)Something about, I forgot this part b/c he was talking quickly, without fed support it becomes more difficult since it's not just NJ residents.
4) The amount of money that NJ would have to spend on a trial like this would be VERY hefty, since it would involve many paid computer experts that states do not generally employ at the state and local level with typically state trials. This would make them always want to settle.
5) Even though the defendants did not admit guilt, it gives a good start for the class action suit to start probing.
Regarding the AC, which he couldn't say anything about, so this is all me.
Yes, how the court document explains it, is how an AC needs to work. But, there is a few things that has bothered me to the point that I got banned for asking them.
1) People within the TF2 community explains that the bitcoin did not effect but no one can completely say that is true. I think this because I pushed Lpkane on the uninstall issue very hard, after the ban, I came back using my VPN and became an ass and pushed harder. I am not sure if the post of his is still there, but he responded with something like "how do you expect me to answer a question like that with the class action still in front of me.
2) Regarding the inability to uninstall, which has been proven to be true, why would you code this into an AC? If you need to the client active to get into ESEA servers, and active to stay in ESEA servers, there would be no reason for an AC to act like that since after it's off, cheating is nothing to ESEA. Consider the fact that you can have a VAC ban and still play ESEA.
3) If the AC can reinstall itself, what would've stopped it from becoming active on a hidden startup. While this DIDN'T happen yet, if the bitcoining wasn't found, this could've been a future addition.
4) This is part lawyer question and part mine. Why would a business give up so much of his day to day decision making if there wasn't more wrongdoing that could be found. Yes, money could be a factor, but in the end you are forcing a 3rd party to have the last call. Depending on the person and the new privacy statement, this could mean that the traditional ways that an AC cheats works MAY not be allowed. That could force a huge drop in subs, which in the long run could be worse than the 1 million full fine.
I have more, but I think this is getting long and I'm starving so I will add more later.
1) This was a civil trial, not a criminal. It's unlikely that a criminal trial would even work very well, since there is very little federal laws protecting internet privacy for the population.
2) The State of NJ is in a tough spot, even if they really want to push to lawsuit, it would be a tough thing for a state to do with limited technical "experts" While they are required by law to only say what they believe is the truth, it's generally going to be a truth that one person explains to the ADA.
3)Something about, I forgot this part b/c he was talking quickly, without fed support it becomes more difficult since it's not just NJ residents.
4) The amount of money that NJ would have to spend on a trial like this would be VERY hefty, since it would involve many paid computer experts that states do not generally employ at the state and local level with typically state trials. This would make them always want to settle.
5) Even though the defendants did not admit guilt, it gives a good start for the class action suit to start probing.
Regarding the AC, which he couldn't say anything about, so this is all me.
Yes, how the court document explains it, is how an AC needs to work. But, there is a few things that has bothered me to the point that I got banned for asking them.
1) People within the TF2 community explains that the bitcoin did not effect but no one can completely say that is true. I think this because I pushed Lpkane on the uninstall issue very hard, after the ban, I came back using my VPN and became an ass and pushed harder. I am not sure if the post of his is still there, but he responded with something like "how do you expect me to answer a question like that with the class action still in front of me.
2) Regarding the inability to uninstall, which has been proven to be true, why would you code this into an AC? If you need to the client active to get into ESEA servers, and active to stay in ESEA servers, there would be no reason for an AC to act like that since after it's off, cheating is nothing to ESEA. Consider the fact that you can have a VAC ban and still play ESEA.
3) If the AC can reinstall itself, what would've stopped it from becoming active on a hidden startup. While this DIDN'T happen yet, if the bitcoining wasn't found, this could've been a future addition.
4) This is part lawyer question and part mine. Why would a business give up so much of his day to day decision making if there wasn't more wrongdoing that could be found. Yes, money could be a factor, but in the end you are forcing a 3rd party to have the last call. Depending on the person and the new privacy statement, this could mean that the traditional ways that an AC cheats works MAY not be allowed. That could force a huge drop in subs, which in the long run could be worse than the 1 million full fine.
I have more, but I think this is getting long and I'm starving so I will add more later.
The main point I'm trying to make is that it's not beyond comprehension to accuse ESEA of incompetence. They'd never have gotten in this mess if that weren't the case. But to take it further and imagine that they meant to steal everybody's personal information, log their passwords, hijack their pcs, etc etc, is just laughable. You wouldn't spend 10 years building a business and then piss it all away like that, especially given that everyone is well aware of who owns and operates ESEA. Maybe if ESEA were a brand-new thing and the owners unknown individuals living on a secret island somewhere, maybe then I'd buy into it.
As far as the inspections go, I doubt they'll be anything more than a hassle for somebody to deal with. Unless NJ is wildly different from IN it took a person being killed for OCEA to even give a damn about my workplace, and even then nothing was really changed. States tend to settle for hassling you and charging you some money rather than actually interrupting or becoming involved in business affairs. My guess is ESEA takes a similar view since they don't seem to be particularly concerned with the third party inspections. If anything I feel a bit safer knowing the inspector is there because they'll be super-super careful about what goes into the client now as somebody will be looking at it at least cursorily lol.
The threat to their business model, due to a weakened AC, is something I hadn't considered - but I suppose that'd take another league with an equally viable anti-cheat getting itself together for the CS people to start hitting ESEA in its wallet.
The main point I'm trying to make is that it's not beyond comprehension to accuse ESEA of incompetence. They'd never have gotten in this mess if that weren't the case. But to take it further and imagine that they meant to steal everybody's personal information, log their passwords, hijack their pcs, etc etc, is just laughable. You wouldn't spend 10 years building a business and then piss it all away like that, especially given that everyone is well aware of who owns and operates ESEA. Maybe if ESEA were a brand-new thing and the owners unknown individuals living on a secret island somewhere, maybe then I'd buy into it.
As far as the inspections go, I doubt they'll be anything more than a hassle for somebody to deal with. Unless NJ is wildly different from IN it took a person being killed for OCEA to even give a damn about my workplace, and even then nothing was really changed. States tend to settle for hassling you and charging you some money rather than actually interrupting or becoming involved in business affairs. My guess is ESEA takes a similar view since they don't seem to be particularly concerned with the third party inspections. If anything I feel a bit safer knowing the inspector is there because they'll be super-super careful about what goes into the client now as somebody will be looking at it at least cursorily lol.
The threat to their business model, due to a weakened AC, is something I hadn't considered - but I suppose that'd take another league with an equally viable anti-cheat getting itself together for the CS people to start hitting ESEA in its wallet.
As far as the inspections go, I doubt they'll be anything more than a hassle for somebody to deal with. Unless NJ is wildly different from IN it took a person being killed for OCEA to even give a damn about my workplace, and even then nothing was really changed. States tend to settle for hassling you and charging you some money rather than actually interrupting or becoming involved in business affairs. My guess is ESEA takes a similar view since they don't seem to be particularly concerned with the third party inspections. If anything I feel a bit safer knowing the inspector is there because they'll be super-super careful about what goes into the client now as somebody will be looking at it at least cursorily lol.
The threat to their business model, due to a weakened AC, is something I hadn't considered - but I suppose that'd take another league with an equally viable anti-cheat getting itself together for the CS people to start hitting ESEA in its wallet.
MarxistThe main point I'm trying to make is that it's not beyond comprehension to accuse ESEA of incompetence. They'd never have gotten in this mess if that weren't the case. But to take it further and imagine that they meant to steal everybody's personal information, log their passwords, hijack their pcs, etc etc, is just laughable. You wouldn't spend 10 years building a business and then piss it all away like that, especially given that everyone is well aware of who owns and operates ESEA. Maybe if ESEA were a brand-new thing and the owners unknown individuals living on a secret island somewhere, maybe then I'd buy into it.
I am not directly saying that they would do that either, but I also wouldn't have expected a company that makes a sizable profit to risk that profit to sneak code into their anti-cheat, nor would I expect that same company to make a client that is very difficult to un-install. Yet, they did.
Would they continue to do the same things, hell no. But you still have to wonder what the fuck was going in their heads to make a little bit extra money on the back of their subscribers makes me suspect how far they would've went to gain more money. No logically person would do this for, maybe, an extra 2-3% profit.
I don't think that OSHA and what ESEA has to do is completely different. OSHA does not have the man power to be at all workplaces to deem them safe, so it takes employees to call them in order to check. While in this case, ESEA is required to have a paid position to be in house (well in computer land) to oversee all aspects of privacy. In your analogy, it's liking having an OSHA agent in house at all times watching over you.
I am not really refuting what you're saying, only pointing out what they agreed to is very different and hard to imagine giving that much power away from yourself within your own business.
[quote=Marxist]The main point I'm trying to make is that it's not beyond comprehension to accuse ESEA of incompetence. They'd never have gotten in this mess if that weren't the case. But to take it further and imagine that they meant to steal everybody's personal information, log their passwords, hijack their pcs, etc etc, is just laughable. You wouldn't spend 10 years building a business and then piss it all away like that, especially given that everyone is well aware of who owns and operates ESEA. Maybe if ESEA were a brand-new thing and the owners unknown individuals living on a secret island somewhere, maybe then I'd buy into it.[/quote]
I am not directly saying that they would do that either, but I also wouldn't have expected a company that makes a sizable profit to risk that profit to sneak code into their anti-cheat, nor would I expect that same company to make a client that is very difficult to un-install. Yet, they did.
Would they continue to do the same things, hell no. But you still have to wonder what the fuck was going in their heads to make a little bit extra money on the back of their subscribers makes me suspect how far they would've went to gain more money. No logically person would do this for, maybe, an extra 2-3% profit.
I don't think that OSHA and what ESEA has to do is completely different. OSHA does not have the man power to be at all workplaces to deem them safe, so it takes employees to call them in order to check. While in this case, ESEA is required to have a paid position to be in house (well in computer land) to oversee all aspects of privacy. In your analogy, it's liking having an OSHA agent in house at all times watching over you.
I am not really refuting what you're saying, only pointing out what they agreed to is very different and hard to imagine giving that much power away from yourself within your own business.
I am not directly saying that they would do that either, but I also wouldn't have expected a company that makes a sizable profit to risk that profit to sneak code into their anti-cheat, nor would I expect that same company to make a client that is very difficult to un-install. Yet, they did.
Would they continue to do the same things, hell no. But you still have to wonder what the fuck was going in their heads to make a little bit extra money on the back of their subscribers makes me suspect how far they would've went to gain more money. No logically person would do this for, maybe, an extra 2-3% profit.
I don't think that OSHA and what ESEA has to do is completely different. OSHA does not have the man power to be at all workplaces to deem them safe, so it takes employees to call them in order to check. While in this case, ESEA is required to have a paid position to be in house (well in computer land) to oversee all aspects of privacy. In your analogy, it's liking having an OSHA agent in house at all times watching over you.
I am not really refuting what you're saying, only pointing out what they agreed to is very different and hard to imagine giving that much power away from yourself within your own business.
Dunno if i am retarded and i am not nerdy enough to read all these threads but isnt this old news? the whole bitcoin fiasco? why has it just recently popped up again and seem to be 10 times more serious then it was when it originally occured
Dunno if i am retarded and i am not nerdy enough to read all these threads but isnt this old news? the whole bitcoin fiasco? why has it just recently popped up again and seem to be 10 times more serious then it was when it originally occured
MarmieDunno if i am retarded and i am not nerdy enough to read all these threads but isnt this old news? the whole bitcoin fiasco? why has it just recently popped up again and seem to be 10 times more serious then it was when it originally occured
You could probably have figured out what is going on by reading just the first post of any of these threads.
[quote=Marmie]Dunno if i am retarded and i am not nerdy enough to read all these threads but isnt this old news? the whole bitcoin fiasco? why has it just recently popped up again and seem to be 10 times more serious then it was when it originally occured[/quote]
You could probably have figured out what is going on by reading just the first post of any of these threads.
You could probably have figured out what is going on by reading just the first post of any of these threads.
MarmieDunno if i am retarded and i am not nerdy enough to read all these threads but isnt this old news? the whole bitcoin fiasco? why has it just recently popped up again and seem to be 10 times more serious then it was when it originally occured
No exception$
[quote=Marmie]Dunno if i am retarded and i am not nerdy enough to read all these threads but isnt this old news? the whole bitcoin fiasco? why has it just recently popped up again and seem to be 10 times more serious then it was when it originally occured[/quote]
No exception$
No exception$
I didn't read the court document ultra-carefully, but I was given the impression that this third party inspector type would just be somebody who showed up (and was paid by ESEA) periodically to make sure things were up to snuff - and not a full time in-house consultant.
If it is a full-time guy that'd be pretty nice from a consumer's point of view.
From my understanding of the bitcoin program, and the intention behind its construction, is that jaguar approached lpkane, and said, hey, I could get the client to mine bitcoins, and in return users could subscribe to a special sort of premium, where they'd get their league fees or premium reimbursed, given that they spent x amount of time mining. Which actually isn't a terrible idea, because I'd sure give a few hours of my PC being maxed out to not have to pay for this stuff. Then something went awry and the bitcoin program, which was being tested, was placed into an update and passed to every ESEA user who downloaded it.
I buy the story that it was a combination of an accident and incompetence (or jaguar thinking he could sneak some free money with his program) that caused this - because I would find it difficult to believe that you'd be willing to damage your company the way ESEA has been damaged in order to gain 3k$ in clandestine bitcoins. They'd have to be even more stupid to believe that nobody would find out, especially given that some pcs sound like hurricanes when they go up to 100% utilization lol.
I didn't read the court document ultra-carefully, but I was given the impression that this third party inspector type would just be somebody who showed up (and was paid by ESEA) periodically to make sure things were up to snuff - and not a full time in-house consultant.
If it is a full-time guy that'd be pretty nice from a consumer's point of view.
From my understanding of the bitcoin program, and the intention behind its construction, is that jaguar approached lpkane, and said, hey, I could get the client to mine bitcoins, and in return users could subscribe to a special sort of premium, where they'd get their league fees or premium reimbursed, given that they spent x amount of time mining. Which actually isn't a terrible idea, because I'd sure give a few hours of my PC being maxed out to not have to pay for this stuff. Then something went awry and the bitcoin program, which was being tested, was placed into an update and passed to every ESEA user who downloaded it.
I buy the story that it was a combination of an accident and incompetence (or jaguar thinking he could sneak some free money with his program) that caused this - because I would find it difficult to believe that you'd be willing to damage your company the way ESEA has been damaged in order to gain 3k$ in clandestine bitcoins. They'd have to be even more stupid to believe that nobody would find out, especially given that some pcs sound like hurricanes when they go up to 100% utilization lol.
If it is a full-time guy that'd be pretty nice from a consumer's point of view.
From my understanding of the bitcoin program, and the intention behind its construction, is that jaguar approached lpkane, and said, hey, I could get the client to mine bitcoins, and in return users could subscribe to a special sort of premium, where they'd get their league fees or premium reimbursed, given that they spent x amount of time mining. Which actually isn't a terrible idea, because I'd sure give a few hours of my PC being maxed out to not have to pay for this stuff. Then something went awry and the bitcoin program, which was being tested, was placed into an update and passed to every ESEA user who downloaded it.
I buy the story that it was a combination of an accident and incompetence (or jaguar thinking he could sneak some free money with his program) that caused this - because I would find it difficult to believe that you'd be willing to damage your company the way ESEA has been damaged in order to gain 3k$ in clandestine bitcoins. They'd have to be even more stupid to believe that nobody would find out, especially given that some pcs sound like hurricanes when they go up to 100% utilization lol.
The problem is that you would have to believe the story that they have said and I am sorry but I don't believe it. Lpkane has told sooo many inconsistent answers for me to believe it anymore.
Meh, anyways, the thing that I will never understand (if it was a true story) is why you cannot uninstall the client. I just think there is way too many coincidences
The problem is that you would have to believe the story that they have said and I am sorry but I don't believe it. Lpkane has told sooo many inconsistent answers for me to believe it anymore.
Meh, anyways, the thing that I will never understand (if it was a true story) is why you cannot uninstall the client. I just think there is way too many coincidences
Meh, anyways, the thing that I will never understand (if it was a true story) is why you cannot uninstall the client. I just think there is way too many coincidences
People within the TF2 community explains that the bitcoin did not effect but no one can completely say that is true.
what the fuck are you talking about? There are log files that you can check to see if you had a connection to the macncheese bitcoin wallet. Nice misinformation.
yawn
http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/14006-meatshot-8-vol-5/11#post-229503
[quote]People within the TF2 community explains that the bitcoin did not effect but no one can completely say that is true.[/quote]
what the fuck are you talking about? There are log files that you can check to see if you had a connection to the macncheese bitcoin wallet. Nice misinformation.
yawn
http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/14006-meatshot-8-vol-5/11#post-229503
what the fuck are you talking about? There are log files that you can check to see if you had a connection to the macncheese bitcoin wallet. Nice misinformation.
yawn
http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/14006-meatshot-8-vol-5/11#post-229503
PapaSmurf323People within the TF2 community explains that the bitcoin did not effect but no one can completely say that is true.
what the fuck are you talking about? There are log files that you can check to see if you had a connection to the macncheese bitcoin wallet. Nice misinformation.
yawn
http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/14006-meatshot-8-vol-5/11#post-229503
As I said later in the post, I meant that it would've possible to go further with it. I also said that's it's my Theory after a certain point.
[quote=PapaSmurf323][quote]People within the TF2 community explains that the bitcoin did not effect but no one can completely say that is true.[/quote]
what the fuck are you talking about? There are log files that you can check to see if you had a connection to the macncheese bitcoin wallet. Nice misinformation.
yawn
http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/14006-meatshot-8-vol-5/11#post-229503[/quote]
As I said later in the post, I meant that it would've possible to go further with it. I also said that's it's my Theory after a certain point.
what the fuck are you talking about? There are log files that you can check to see if you had a connection to the macncheese bitcoin wallet. Nice misinformation.
yawn
http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/14006-meatshot-8-vol-5/11#post-229503[/quote]
As I said later in the post, I meant that it would've possible to go further with it. I also said that's it's my Theory after a certain point.
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