Minisentry full heal on completion is just retarded, + the 100 metal cost lets them still have enough metal for another. Scouts don't have a decent way to deal with them because midrange scout damage is absolute shit versus sentries (no rampup either) meaning they have to get in shotgun range of the engineer or just give up that path. Needs a longer deploy time/no heal to be even considered. I honestly think we should change back the engy limit to 2 for gpit strats (at least two engy's wasn't that big of a deal before gunslinger, even with 2 level3 sentries).

Majority of reasons were "counters/is annoying to scouts".

I already responded to the two people who, imo, provided actual potential issues.

The potential issues are obvious when you come across them in game. Takes 3 rockets to kill one if it deploys after the first rocket, effectively reducing you to 1 rocket to fight the engineer which you probably used before deployment. It's detrimental to scouts and soldiers, and probably would be too for Pyros/Medics. It's ability to tank up to 199 damage is really bad for 6's gameplay.

no effort to build and too much to kill it.

You'd be right if it took three rockets to kill one. It always takes two.
.
Unless it can regen 90 HP in the span of a second which it can't.

I will list it for you if you cant read the rest of the thread,
1. Its the hard counter to scout so flank is dead,
2. If you put one in your combo have fun roamers your not getting anywhere near them,
3. Spawns with full health so you need to waste a lot of ammo on them,
4. You can build 2 in a row without having to get any metal,
5. You kill one (engy) the other gets you (mini) and because of this the mini is more or less a 7th player that has aimbot,
6. No one with any brain would ever want to face a mini engy over a level 3 engy because the mini grants a extra 25hp and you can have it within a second,
7. The gunslinger was never banned because it was ran in pairs it was banned for all the reasons I have listed and more, double engy was banned because of the gunslinger.
Hope this helps.

Actually, it goes to full HP on deploy (unless it was changed). Meaning any damage done to it during construction is instantly healed.

Source here if you care:
http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Sentry_Gun#Combat_Mini-Sentry_Gun

So please get your facts straight before trying to dispute mine at least.

Okay.

I'll do facts.

If you hit it within the first 1/10 of its deploy time and do not hit it within the rest of its deployment, then it takes 3 rockets. Hate to break it to you, but that's fucking slow.

Almost always, Soldiers two-shot minis even while they are building because they do not regenerate fast enough.

It hard counters one Scout at a time and dies extremely easy to any other of the combat classes.

Roamers can still get close, though the mini does have some AA abilities.

A lot being two rockets, one pill, a sticky, or 3+ shotgun/scatter shells?

And they die just as easily if you're not a Scout.

Idk about you, but unless I'm scouting, I don't find a pistol aimbot so powerful that if I kill the Engineer, I can't blow it up.

Less than three seconds unless hauled to the fight, which is like 1.5. I'd rather fight a 150hp rocket-less Soldier than a lvl 3, idk about you.

Really now. Most of these are bad reasons, and how the fuck can double Engy be banned because of the Gunslinger when the Gunslinger wasn't fucking allowed before the season in which double Engy was banned?

Not at all.

Mostly a load of shit.

If you hit a minisentry within the first 1/10th of the deploy I'm calling hacks. Only DH would hit that fast or you're at point blank, in which you'll probably be killing the engy fast enough so it's not an issue in that scenario. 1/10th of the deploy time is .25 seconds. Rockets travel 1100 units a second, max sentry radius is about 1024, so average it .5 seconds to hit. Even if you could always get the two rockets out on time (aka you're soloing the engineer or something) that's a huge advantage to the engineer, being able to force soldiers down two rockets. But anyways, most of the time people would splash onto the sentry which does dirt damage and ends up costing you time and extra rockets. Minisentries in actually play rarely will be the OMG focus and direct hitted twice, plus they can be laid down before the soldier turns the corner and is left in a position where he's suppose to just wait so he wastes less rockets. Either way, the minisentries need some revision before people would ever want to play with them again.

Also, if you use the stationary object excuse, try shooting stickies with hitscans with a large crosshair. Things are so relatively small compared the the rest of the action it's easy to misjudge and miss a direct hit. I mean sure it'd increase the precision skill ceiling on other classes, but reduce the overall skill of engineer (place sentry reap rewards).

The mini-sentry kills any flanking/bombing ideas due to the fact that it has auto-aim. It's ability to zone efficiently with such a low cost (100 metal, low build time) lets it shut down any surprise plays. You're looking at something that will hinder one's ability to break a stalemate as well as plays that are capable of shifting momentum. Roamers already don't have the best of situation when bombing a medic and you're just adding onto it with a mini sentry.

In terms of its health, in 6v6 damage is a big factor to the game simply because of the low player count. Wasting 2 rockets, pills, shotgun shots, etc. is a loss of damage that could've went to killing a player and the fact that the engie can set down 2 of these before picking ammo means wasting additional rockets, etc.. You're taking away damage output from the other team with not setbacks and giving your team additional damage output that DOESN'T miss and soaks up damage.

TL;DR Auto-aim, alerts team to any surprises (zoning abilities), extra damage sponge/dealer for little cost.

how about a new deployal method?
- when placed, they start with 1 HP
- it scales to max HP over the deploy time
- if its HP goes below or equal to 0 HP, they're destroyed
- deployal progress halts when they take damage, based on how much damage they took (matches the time it takes for the same HP to "regen" while deploying)

Not saying it would fix the minisentry's all problems, but it would make throwing them down to annoy less queer. I described the mechanics intimately, disregarding however it currently works and starting from scratch.

Also, I really dislike how you're downsizing the power of the minisentry. Jumpers can get close at the cost of a huge portion of their HP and wasting rockets. 2 rockets IS a lot when it can be deployed at any time, unlike regular sentries which have a huge time cost. Free 3 second pistol aimbot does great damage for no skill, which is why it's disliked. And calling a 100% speed shotgunner a soldier is pretty retarded. The best part of the gunslinger combo is that he's either shoot you or your sentry, while killing him with a shotgun.

I don't think you've played high open or higher level play with minisentries. It's brutal. Unless you have some proof of play that you'd like to present to the community, because it's greatly based off gunslinger/gpit strats that were way too effective.

Just give it 50% of the current range and I'd be happy.

bottomline is that it's not fun to fight against an aimbot that is easy as hell to make , takes very little aim to put out good damage (this is important as dm is an important aspect of tf2 and 6v6), and durable enough that it is basically like you are fighting at least 1.5 of a player. it also slows down the game at least a little bit.

it's too powerful even in pubs. pretty sure 90% of the time i am more useful as engy with gunslinger than with any other wrench. isnt that how it goes in highlander aside from attack/defend maps?

do you play video games Kave_Johnson

the gunslinger will never be unbanned ever

shut the fuck up

I remember when yay ran it on every map lol

gunslinger badlands mid in window, 2strong

kave_johnson you're the only one in this thread that wants it unbanned. let it go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy94nw9U7N4

the gunslinger is perfectly balanced...

...if the engineer lacks the ability to aim with his shotgun

im guessing thats the only kind of engineer that the OP has run across