The perfect map

#31

Sovereign

8 Frags – +

A map where all the control points are on spires with ramps that demo and soldiers can use to get on the spires on rolllout

#32

PokemonAdventure

2 Frags – +

Dropdowns. Don't forget about dropdowns!

#33

redrocket4

5 Frags – +

k gonna call this map koth_metalrampsntrains

#34

PUFF

16 Frags – +

This game needs rubber/reflectable wall textures where you can shoot projectiles on them and they bounce off. Airshot people by banking a rocket off the wall!

sorry for the worthless contribution

This game needs rubber/reflectable wall textures where you can shoot projectiles on them and they bounce off. Airshot people by banking a rocket off the wall!

sorry for the worthless contribution

#35

redrocket4

-4 Frags – +

c:

#36

Rikachu

11 Frags – +

PUFFThis game needs rubber/reflectable wall textures where you can shoot projectiles on them and they bounce off. Airshot people by banking a rocket off the wall!

sorry for the worthless contribution

That's called a pyro.

[quote=PUFF]This game needs rubber/reflectable wall textures where you can shoot projectiles on them and they bounce off. Airshot people by banking a rocket off the wall!

sorry for the worthless contribution[/quote]

That's called a pyro.

#37

MaxHax

5 Frags – +

No holes, no stairs, at least 3 ways to push each point is a good start. And no crazy sniper lanes like Yukon plz.

#38

timesthelegallimit

4 Frags – +

lots of things to slide/edgebug off of and generally fewer sharp angles plus rng trains.

#39

Waterhog

12 Frags – +

A few ideas:

Ramps, not stairs
No random cracks / objects to eat splash dmg
Plenty of height variation
Multiple ways into every point
An incentive to push from mid -> 2 rather than stalemating
Simple visuals that aren't distracting
Lots of community testing to perfect balance

Must-haves:

Spires.
Forget trains, put in an airplane

A few ideas:

Ramps, not stairs
No random cracks / objects to eat splash dmg
Plenty of height variation
Multiple ways into every point
An incentive to push from mid -> 2 rather than stalemating
Simple visuals that aren't distracting
Lots of community testing to perfect balance

Must-haves:

Spires.
Forget trains, put in an airplane

#40

ErenJay

8 Frags – +

shadow-proof walls

#41

downpour

3 Frags – +

PUFFThis game needs rubber/reflectable wall textures where you can shoot projectiles on them and they bounce off. Airshot people by banking a rocket off the wall!

sorry for the worthless contribution

some jump maps manage to make these exist and i have no idea how.

[quote=PUFF]This game needs rubber/reflectable wall textures where you can shoot projectiles on them and they bounce off. Airshot people by banking a rocket off the wall!

sorry for the worthless contribution[/quote]
some jump maps manage to make these exist and i have no idea how.

#42

amph

4 Frags – +

http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/15245-stalemates-revisited/3#post-79

skeejThis means that we could experiment with maps being designed with an overall valley/dip style layout, where CP3 is the lowest point on the map, and where CP2 is elevated over CP3, so the team out of control can push with positional advantage. It should also be relatively easier to spam from CP2 to CP3 than the other way around. With this layout in mind, there is incentive for both teams to push. The CP3 team will have a worse position and will draw the shorter straw spam-wise if they keep that position, and will therefore eventually risk losing control of CP3, so it's in their best interest to push towards CP2/4, also just for the sake of eventually getting close to CP5 and actually scoring a point. The CP2 team will be incentivised to push for the sake of already having positional advantage and wanting to get out of their out-of-control (cp-wise) situation.

this would probably help satisfy the demand for fast rollouts at the same time

http://teamfortress.tv/forum/thread/15245-stalemates-revisited/3#post-79

[quote=skeej]This means that we could experiment with maps being designed with an overall valley/dip style layout, where CP3 is the lowest point on the map, and where CP2 is elevated over CP3, so the team out of control can push with positional advantage. It should also be relatively easier to spam from CP2 to CP3 than the other way around. With this layout in mind, there is incentive for both teams to push. The CP3 team will have a worse position and will draw the shorter straw spam-wise if they keep that position, and will therefore eventually risk losing control of CP3, so it's in their best interest to push towards CP2/4, also just for the sake of eventually getting close to CP5 and actually scoring a point. The CP2 team will be incentivised to push for the sake of already having positional advantage and wanting to get out of their out-of-control (cp-wise) situation.[/quote]

this would probably help satisfy the demand for fast rollouts at the same time

#43

Lune

4 Frags – +

Holyshiznohttp://imgur.com/K4KF5tZ.jpg
i tried

Ohh god im dying the face of the train

[quote=Holyshizno][img]http://imgur.com/K4KF5tZ.jpg[/img]
i tried[/quote]

Ohh god im dying the face of the train

#44

Twitch

-11 Frags – +

ChaChiyou need a banana and cheese

and some gravy...and mashed potatoes...mmmmh......

[quote=ChaChi]you need a banana and cheese[/quote]

and some gravy...and mashed potatoes...mmmmh......

#45

Irishhhh

5 Frags – +

not even a funny necro

#46

natapon

21 Frags – +

a map shaped like a heart. two teams spawn back to back with a glass wall separating them, dividing their love. they meet at the other end which is the mid, which the team that shares the most love will win.

http://i.imgur.com/ohmL029.png

i know its not jump symmetrical though. cp_<3

a map shaped like a heart. two teams spawn back to back with a glass wall separating them, dividing their love. they meet at the other end which is the mid, which the team that shares the most love will win.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/ohmL029.png[/img]

i know its not jump symmetrical though. cp_<3

#47

Vortex

28 Frags – +

All points have a gap surrounding them that medics must bunnyhop to or else they fall into a pit filled with trains.

#48

triplemint

-3 Frags – +

VortexAll points have a gap surrounding them that medics must bunnyhop to or else they fall into a pit filled with trains.

mother of god this man's a GENIUS

[quote=Vortex]All points have a gap surrounding them that medics must bunnyhop to or else they fall into a pit filled with trains.[/quote]

mother of god this man's a [size=16][b]GENIUS[/b][/size]

#49

owl

5 Frags – +

VortexAll points have a gap surrounding them that medics must bunnyhop to or else they fall into a pit filled with trains.

fuck youuuuu

[quote=Vortex]All points have a gap surrounding them that medics must bunnyhop to or else they fall into a pit filled with trains.[/quote]

fuck youuuuu

#50

Brozilla

-13 Frags – +

I'd say the perfect map is cp_b4nny

#51

Hyce

13 Frags – +

This whole thread is why I hate making maps

#52

spliit

-9 Frags – +

fsXDHolyshiznohttp://imgur.com/K4KF5tZ.jpg
i tried
you need some badlands mid cracks in there

keep in mind that this map is in beta still

[quote=fsXD][quote=Holyshizno][img]http://imgur.com/K4KF5tZ.jpg[/img]
i tried[/quote]

you need some badlands mid cracks in there[/quote]

keep in mind that this map is in beta still

#53

kirby

6 Frags – +

someone should be kind enough to literally take every map we play/played and fix what's generally wrong with them. that way we can stop voting out maps that have great potential to last awhile and stop voting in maps like sunshine.

#54

Hyce

13 Frags – +

kirbysomeone should be kind enough to literally take every map we play/played and fix what's generally wrong with them. that way we can stop voting out maps that have great potential to last awhile and stop voting in maps like sunshine.

Mapping for competitive players is kinda like trying to build a custom motorcycle for a stupid person who only has one leg and likes to speak french.

A lot of times it is easier to start from a clean slate with some maps. For example cp_orange was not built to the grid at all and sucks to work with (I've had to make a couple special versions of it).

It also sucks really bad to take nicely detailed beta level stuff and undo it to change something because a lot of times it really opens up a can of worms.

It's possible to fix all the maps, it just sucks a lot. It's not so hard to learn a new layout; although coming up with new strategies and ways to fight on certain terrain can be hard.

tl;dr Fixing old maps sucks for mappers, is good for players; new maps are good for mappers, sucks for players.

If you help us out a little bit, we'd be more inclined to fix old maps. The poor bastard that was working on warmerfront just about got his balls chopped off by asshats. Be nice and you might get what you want.

[quote=kirby]someone should be kind enough to literally take every map we play/played and fix what's generally wrong with them. that way we can stop voting out maps that have great potential to last awhile and stop voting in maps like sunshine.[/quote]

Mapping for competitive players is kinda like trying to build a custom motorcycle for a stupid person who only has one leg and likes to speak french.

A lot of times it is easier to start from a clean slate with some maps. For example cp_orange was not built to the grid at all and sucks to work with (I've had to make a couple special versions of it).

It also sucks really bad to take nicely detailed beta level stuff and undo it to change something because a lot of times it really opens up a can of worms.

It's possible to fix all the maps, it just sucks a lot. It's not so hard to learn a new layout; although coming up with new strategies and ways to fight on certain terrain can be hard.

tl;dr Fixing old maps sucks for mappers, is good for players; new maps are good for mappers, sucks for players.

If you help us out a little bit, we'd be more inclined to fix old maps. The poor bastard that was working on warmerfront just about got his balls chopped off by asshats. Be nice and you might get what you want.

#55

kirby

1 Frags – +

I'm not a mapper, but how hard would it be to do something like replacing all the stairs on Badlands with ramps or fixing the cap time on the last point?

Take a look at Viaduct for example. The original is shit. Someone whose name I forgot was kind enough to take their own time to fix Viaduct based off of what we generally thought was wrong with it and Viaduct suddenly became sort of a great map.

I completely understand where you're coming from. There's a lot more going on in Hammer with maps than just walls, props, health/ammo and respawn times. However with as many custom maps that have come and go and for as long as I've been playing, there's been a noticeable lack of anyone willing to fix problems with maps that a lot of people have been looking for.

Of course, this problem would easily be solved if we just play tested new custom maps that are made enough to the point that when they're eventually added to the rotation, there won't be a problem. Considering the fact that a lot of the maps we play now are custom maps (or were at one point the became official), it would make sense for that to be the case.

So the best case scenario would be to either fix the problems we have on maps that have been around for awhile that we still play and constantly complain about or we can for once play test new maps so that we won't have to complain about them.

I'm not a mapper, but how hard would it be to do something like replacing all the stairs on Badlands with ramps or fixing the cap time on the last point?

Take a look at Viaduct for example. The original is [b]shit[/b]. Someone whose name I forgot was kind enough to take their own time to fix Viaduct based off of what we generally thought was wrong with it and Viaduct suddenly became sort of a great map.

I completely understand where you're coming from. There's a lot more going on in Hammer with maps than just walls, props, health/ammo and respawn times. However with as many custom maps that have come and go and for as long as I've been playing, there's been a noticeable lack of anyone willing to fix problems with maps that a lot of people have been looking for.

Of course, this problem would easily be solved if we just play tested new custom maps that are made enough to the point that when they're eventually added to the rotation, there won't be a problem. Considering the fact that a lot of the maps we play now are custom maps (or were at one point the became official), it would make sense for that to be the case.

So the best case scenario would be to either fix the problems we have on maps that have been around for awhile that we still play and constantly complain about or we can for once play test new maps so that we won't have to complain about them.

#56

TruDom

1 Frags – +

kirbyI'm not a mapper, but how hard would it be to do something like replacing all the stairs on Badlands with ramps or fixing the cap time on the last point?

Take a look at Viaduct for example. The original is shit. Someone whose name I forgot was kind enough to take their own time to fix Viaduct based off of what we generally thought was wrong with it and Viaduct suddenly became sort of a great map.

I completely understand where you're coming from. There's a lot more going on in Hammer with maps than just walls, props, health/ammo and respawn times. However with as many custom maps that have come and go and for as long as I've been playing, there's been a noticeable lack of anyone willing to fix problems with maps that a lot of people have been looking for.

Of course, this problem would easily be solved if we just play tested new custom maps that are made enough to the point that when they're eventually added to the rotation, there won't be a problem. Considering the fact that a lot of the maps we play now are custom maps (or were at one point the became official), it would make sense for that to be the case.

So the best case scenario would be to either fix the problems we have on maps that have been around for awhile that we still play and constantly complain about or we can for once play test new maps so that we won't have to complain about them.

It's generally not hard to edit/change existing maps at all.
the main problem when making comp maps is there is SHIT feedback on what actually works and what is specifically wrong with part(s) of the map.
it's very difficult to even find 12 players that are willing to even play a beta/alpha staged map. just as hard to get decent feedback from the players.
now i have come across a few players who were very good at critiquing a map... so hats off to them.
but the 6s community in general hates change and hates actually learning a new map.

with that said... what are some maps that could 'easily' be edited to make them comp friendly. (like viaduct)
i'd also like to add that the more vanilla tf2 maps you edit, the greater the divide between comp and pubs become. new comp players will not only have to learn a completely different way to play tf2 but also download a completely different set of maps.

[quote=kirby]I'm not a mapper, but how hard would it be to do something like replacing all the stairs on Badlands with ramps or fixing the cap time on the last point?

Take a look at Viaduct for example. The original is [b]shit[/b]. Someone whose name I forgot was kind enough to take their own time to fix Viaduct based off of what we generally thought was wrong with it and Viaduct suddenly became sort of a great map.

I completely understand where you're coming from. There's a lot more going on in Hammer with maps than just walls, props, health/ammo and respawn times. However with as many custom maps that have come and go and for as long as I've been playing, there's been a noticeable lack of anyone willing to fix problems with maps that a lot of people have been looking for.

Of course, this problem would easily be solved if we just play tested new custom maps that are made enough to the point that when they're eventually added to the rotation, there won't be a problem. Considering the fact that a lot of the maps we play now are custom maps (or were at one point the became official), it would make sense for that to be the case.

So the best case scenario would be to either fix the problems we have on maps that have been around for awhile that we still play and constantly complain about or we can for once play test new maps so that we won't have to complain about them.[/quote]

It's generally not hard to edit/change existing maps at all.
the main problem when making comp maps is there is SHIT feedback on what actually works and what is specifically wrong with part(s) of the map.
it's very difficult to even find 12 players that are willing to even play a beta/alpha staged map. just as hard to get decent feedback from the players.
now i have come across a few players who were very good at critiquing a map... so hats off to them.
but the 6s community in general hates change and hates actually learning a new map.

with that said... what are some maps that could 'easily' be edited to make them comp friendly. (like viaduct)
i'd also like to add that the more vanilla tf2 maps you edit, the greater the divide between comp and pubs become. new comp players will not only have to learn a completely different way to play tf2 but also download a completely different set of maps.

#57

kirby

-2 Frags – +

While I hate advocating not listening to everyone, your best bet is to either listen to the higher up players or at least people who have been playing long enough to know what's up. When there's a general agreement on what needs to be fixed, then it's easy to figure out what you should be fixing. An example being something like Badlands mid bridge where the tracks allowed your rockets to do absolutely nothing to anyone. That's something a lot more people agreed needed to be changed than people who didn't or didn't care.

If a mapper tries to start a serious discussion on what needs to be fixed, you'll be surprised exactly how many people with relevant opinions will partake in said discussion.

I agree that it's seemingly hard to find people to test maps other than small in house pug groups and I'm not really sure how to fix that.

I wouldn't say we hate change because it seems every season a lot of people want Map X out and Map Y (new map) in. Same goes for new weapons that aren't ridiculous or whatever.

Whether or not we'll be dividing ourselves and the public community more, I'm not sure. There's a difference between banning a lot of weapons (which is part of the reason why a lot of pubbies don't want to play 6s) and fixing problems with maps.

A lot of highly populated and regularly filled servers run maps like Viaduct RC3 and Process/Gullywash before they became official. Take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I can't really see making maps better as a problem.

While I hate advocating not listening to everyone, your best bet is to either listen to the higher up players or at least people who have been playing long enough to know what's up. When there's a general agreement on what needs to be fixed, then it's easy to figure out what you should be fixing. An example being something like Badlands mid bridge where the tracks allowed your rockets to do absolutely nothing to anyone. That's something a lot more people agreed needed to be changed than people who didn't or didn't care.

If a mapper tries to start a serious discussion on what needs to be fixed, you'll be surprised exactly how many people with relevant opinions will partake in said discussion.

I agree that it's seemingly hard to find people to test maps other than small in house pug groups and I'm not really sure how to fix that.

I wouldn't say we hate change because it seems every season a lot of people want Map X out and Map Y (new map) in. Same goes for new weapons that aren't ridiculous or whatever.

Whether or not we'll be dividing ourselves and the public community more, I'm not sure. There's a difference between banning a lot of weapons (which is part of the reason why a lot of pubbies don't want to play 6s) and fixing problems with maps.

A lot of highly populated and regularly filled servers run maps like Viaduct RC3 and Process/Gullywash before they became official. Take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I can't really see making maps better as a problem.

#58

Hyce

6 Frags – +

kirbyI'm not a mapper, but how hard would it be to do something like replacing all the stairs on Badlands with ramps or fixing the cap time on the last point?

I completely understand where you're coming from. There's a lot more going on in Hammer with maps than just walls, props, health/ammo and respawn times.

So the best case scenario would be to either fix the problems we have on maps that have been around for awhile that we still play and constantly complain about or we can for once play test new maps so that we won't have to complain about them.

Fixing respawn times, cap times, ammo/health, and stairs is literally easier than beating off a horny 12 year old. You tell me what needs to get done and fuck it I'll make _pro version of any map you want. HOWEVER. If said map needs serious geometry changes, that's where shit sucks.

Also, as far as stairs go... Stairs are almost always playerclipped, so they act like ramps anyways, lol. I usually go so far as to bulletblock my stairs so that they literally are just ramps that look like stairs. Some aren't like that though. You can tell what isn't clipped by your head bobbing as you go up. You can tell what isn't block bulleted if you fire a pipe grenade and it gets deflected in any way other than the direction the stairs are going.

TruDom
It's generally not hard to edit/change existing maps at all.
the main problem when making comp maps is there is SHIT feedback on what actually works and what is specifically wrong with part(s) of the map.
it's very difficult to even find 12 players that are willing to even play a beta/alpha staged map. just as hard to get decent feedback from the players.
now i have come across a few players who were very good at critiquing a map... so hats off to them.
but the 6s community in general hates change and hates actually learning a new map.

.kirbyOf course, this problem would easily be solved if we just play tested new custom maps that are made enough to the point that when they're eventually added to the rotation, there won't be a problem. Considering the fact that a lot of the maps we play now are custom maps (or were at one point the became official), it would make sense for that to be the case.

With the regards to these quotes... You know what would help me get community testing on my maps? Stop fucking beating off and saying "We should community test these maps" like I see so many people hop on soapboxes in these threads and do and actually fuckin' come help PUG and tell me what's wrong.

I ran a couple pugs on my maps and asked that people give me feedback afterwards. Only Benroads did in a joking manner about the number of healthkits.

I'm willing to get my maps where they need to be and edit existing maps if it's easy enough. I just need someone who's not a fucking immature assdick about everything to help me out a bit.

[quote=kirby]I'm not a mapper, but how hard would it be to do something like replacing all the stairs on Badlands with ramps or fixing the cap time on the last point?

I completely understand where you're coming from. There's a lot more going on in Hammer with maps than just walls, props, health/ammo and respawn times.

So the best case scenario would be to either fix the problems we have on maps that have been around for awhile that we still play and constantly complain about or we can for once play test new maps so that we won't have to complain about them.[/quote]

Fixing respawn times, cap times, ammo/health, and stairs is literally easier than beating off a horny 12 year old. You tell me what needs to get done and fuck it I'll make _pro version of any map you want. HOWEVER. If said map needs serious geometry changes, that's where shit sucks.

Also, as far as stairs go... Stairs are almost always playerclipped, so they act like ramps anyways, lol. I usually go so far as to bulletblock my stairs so that they literally are just ramps that look like stairs. Some aren't like that though. You can tell what isn't clipped by your head bobbing as you go up. You can tell what isn't block bulleted if you fire a pipe grenade and it gets deflected in any way other than the direction the stairs are going.

[quote=TruDom]

It's generally not hard to edit/change existing maps at all.
[b]the main problem when making comp maps is there is SHIT feedback on what actually works and what is specifically wrong with part(s) of the map.[/b]
it's very difficult to even find 12 players that are willing to even play a beta/alpha staged map. just as hard to get decent feedback from the players.
now i have come across a few players who were very good at critiquing a map... so hats off to them.
but the 6s community in general hates change and hates actually learning a new map.

.[/quote]

[quote=kirby][b]Of course, this problem would easily be solved if we just play tested new custom maps that are made enough to the point that when they're eventually added to the rotation, there won't be a problem. Considering the fact that a lot of the maps we play now are custom maps (or were at one point the became official), it would make sense for that to be the case.[/b][/quote]

With the regards to these quotes... You know what would help me get community testing on my maps? Stop fucking beating off and saying "We should community test these maps" like I see so many people hop on soapboxes in these threads and do and actually fuckin' come help PUG and tell me what's wrong.

I ran a couple pugs on my maps and asked that people give me feedback afterwards. Only Benroads did in a joking manner about the number of healthkits.

I'm willing to get my maps where they need to be and edit existing maps if it's easy enough. I just need someone who's not a fucking immature assdick about everything to help me out a bit.

#59

x3

-3 Frags – +

There is no perfect map.

Just a perfect combo of maps for a season.

I think we have a good balance right now.

Introducing a new map each season is a good idea.

There is no perfect map.

Just a perfect combo of maps for a season.

I think we have a good balance right now.

Introducing a new map each season is a good idea.

#60

milehighmilitia

0 Frags – +

need more koth. less sunshine.