ugc

Sadly, I know some hl engineers that would complain about it's removal saying it actually adds versatility or some crap.

I don't know how much of a big deal they are, but from what I've seen in HL pugs they aren't that big of a deal aside on certain maps. I guess they might be a bigger problem in higher up HL, but it's not as hard to drop the engy then the gun right after (makes it extremely easy for other classes to sneak around the sentry considering how many targets there are anyways).

And HL is pretty slow on it's own that maybe I don't notice when it slows down the game anyways.

The wrangler adds nothing to highlander and makes playing payload and attack/defend maps an awful experience. Winning or losing hinges on which team has better wrangler placements instead of which team has better teamwork and dm. Even if you argue that ubering your wrangler engie is somehow teamwork, not many people really enjoy playing sentry fortress 2.

I think one of the main reasons people voted to keep the wrangler in UGC highlander was because it tends to work well against teams that try to show up and dm their way to victory. Most invite players don't care to strat out a map like pl_upward to win a highlander match, and everyone else votes with this in mind.

There really can't possibly be any good reason for it to be allowed.

I am an Engy Main in UGC. I would like the Wrangler banned, please.

The wrangler facilitates boring, stupid sentry positions that can't work without it due to long range spamming options. Also, the pistol and short circuit have been sitting in its shadow for a while now, and I'd rather die 100 times learning to utilize the short circuit than sit by my sentry, holding out the wrangler, shooting everything in range like every other engy for another season. It stunts creativity and intelligent engineering by offering a simpler, mindless alternative (like the tomislav, enforcer, pomson, etc).

Honestly, if even the engineers don't like it, why is it allowed?

enigma starting the revolution.

serious answer: the only good reason I have ever heard for the wrangler being allowed is that engineer would be even shittier without it and it would just be too hard to find people willing to play it

trollish answer: every time people ask to ban it the admins act like massive cunts
http://ugcleague.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11833&page=6

start with my post on p. 6 and keep reading; once infinite comes in you know you've struck gold

This is a pretty awesome point. I can't imagine how hilarious and amazing a player that is good with the short circuit would be.

no offense but this argument plays out at least once every season on the ugc forums and it's still never been banned, and i doubt it ever will be. i do think the wrangler and gunslinger TOGETHER should be banned, ie you can only use one or the other. offensive engineers with that combo are annoying as fuck.

1. Highlander is not 6v6 so folks should not attempt to apply the same logic they use in designing 6s rules to highlander. In 6s only 4-5 classes are utilized most of the time (2 soldiers, 2 scouts, 1 demo, 1 medic, maybe a pyro or engineer or sniper for a few seconds on lasts, rinse, repeat). As such by definition of highlander all classes need to be viable. Wrangler is a powerful addition to the engineer that makes the class quite useful in comparison to when it was not in the game.
2. Top teams in highlander have ZERO problems taking down a wrangled gun. If you do, you need to try a new strategy.
3. Wrangled guns INCREASE the need for teamwork from the opposing team because in order to take them down quickly you need to coordinate attacks from multiple classes. If you think a wrangled gun is OP try coordinating a DH soldier, demo spam, AND a spy sap. Shit melts like butter.
4. It's been debated about 4 times already and most of the league wants it in and it's not going anywhere.
5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=estgiicATLc

And furthermore, it is my opinion (not UGC's) that the result of the HUGE number of bans and class restrictions in CEVO/ESEA have hampered growth of 6v6 over the years. 6v6 is quite small in comparison to highlander and pub TF2 in general. I feel this is because it is DRASTICALLY different than stock TF2. It's incredibly difficult to get public players interested in 6s because 1) they probably can't play the class they love and 2) they definitely can't use majority of the weapons they like. Maybe that's one of the reasons ESEA has 68 teams this season instead of the 117 it had last season. People might be getting bored playing the same game they bought in 2007.

Now, I can't wait to read mustard's epic paragraphs dissecting my points and the instant 4+ frags I get from my fan club.

Love, Inf.

i don't know you but i +fragged because logic

Heard it here first guys. Allow wrangler and we will have mass number of pubbers joining 6s because the game will no longer be hampered by our illogical need to ban stupid fucking shit.

Also the logic we apply to 6s is that this game is balanced for 12 players that have no idea what is going on versus another 12 players that have no idea what is going on. I would think that any competitive environment (including HL) would see the flaws in how valve balances the game for pubs, but I guess not everybody will. But ugc has shown such impressive admin-ship so who am I to argue.

I just want to say that 6v6 would be absolutely unbearable if there were no bans(no weapon or class restrictions). Most of our bans are there to keep the gameplay fast and exciting for both the player and the spectator. We realize that the game is completely different from pub TF2, and we realize it adversely affects how many people play 6v6. However, we enjoy the way the game plays in our chosen format and wouldn't want to give in to a slower, more boring(in our opinion of course) competitive format.

To each his own.

Also, wrangler is laughably OP if the team/engineer have any brains or mechanical skills at all. It literally has autoaim.

This would imply that engineer would be pretty much useless without the item, which he obviously would not be. I mean god forbid engineers having to poop out mini sentries and aim with a shotgun.

This doesn't mean that the item doesn't do exactly what the OP is talking about the vast majority of the time.

This pretty much explains what the item can cause. You say it causes teamwork, and it does (kinda) but it's not the type of teamwork that is gratifying and fun. When a crosseyed, upside-down retard can sit there with a secondary item that really only can be countered by a good ubercharge or very good spy/sniper play followed up by a demoman or soldier I think there is something wrong here.

I'd be really disappointed if this was true. Maybe have the platinum teams decide on the item. Since they are the best players and probably have a good sense of balance.

On a map like turbine I feel like the engineer shouldn't be using the wrangler as you can't be a tremendous douchebag and sit across the map shooting at people all while your sentry is very hard to kill. The map is very small and the sentries are very easy to peak as any class. The wrangler's browneye shines on maps where you can sit at a safe distance and be a fucking asshole to everyone on the other team. This mostly happens in payload maps, and aside from the wrangler I'd say payload maps are awesome for highlander. I have no idea why so many cp maps are played in pugs.

Yeah pretty much. Maybe this site can host a Highlander league eventually, run by people that know what the hell is going on.

I've played against the wrangler many times and I can only recall a few times where it was absurdly broken (on payload maps). I am pretty sure this is how most of the top teams feel. Then again, I can't remember a time when the wrangler was not allowed so I have no idea what highlander is like without it.

The reasons the Pomson is not allowed:
-It lowers the skill floor by allowing spammy play to hurt the other team
-It discourages use of the shotgun which is a perfectly balanced item for the engy
-It drains uber, and the Engy should not be able to singlehandedly take an uber away from a medic without a good deal of skill (ie: getting behind the medic and shotguning him down)

The Wrangler:
-It lowers the skill floor by allowing sentry positions from which you can spam and hurt the enemy team easily compared to no Wrangler.
-It discourages use of the Pistol and Short Circuit which are perfectly balanced items for the engy.
-It forces medic to use their uber on a sentry instead of the other team's combo, and the engy should not be able to singlehandedly take an uber away from a medic without a good deal of skill.

But what do I know, right? I main engy, so I'm too biased to talk.

There are quite a few maps where our team (looking handsome) doesn't use lvl3's or wrangler when our opponents do. We rely on our Engy to use his best judgement. More often than not it works out better to use mini sentries and shotgun than to camp out behind a gun.
We dont often have issues with the wrangler. Sometimes a wrangled gun makes our job a little easier. A lot of teams will hang around the gun and seem to think its safe. But wrangler can only shoot 1 at a time, so we just jump them all at once and focus fire. We are pretty aggressive at most times, so losing a player to sit with a lvl3 tends to not fit with our style. I think a lot of teams are adapting to that style except only on a few points (D, or certain PL spots, ctf)

I've seen quite a lot of engineers use the wrangler, some from 6's. It all turns out the same. Wrangler is somewhat of a crutch. When we do use it, we only use it as a means to stall the other team or as a distraction.
----------------
I see a lot of posts about the UGC Admins being terrible. The only admin that's been posting (other than this one as my first post) has been inf. It would be nice to not clump us all together if possible. The league is a constant work in progress. Dropping the invite limit is a great move and has been a long time coming. The support from new players coming in on a high level is great and is only going to bolster tf2's popularity even further.

Props to enigma for getting this site up.

But wouldn't the same be true of the Pomson? You'd see a lot of people use it with some higher-level engies sticking with their shotties and being just as, if not more, successful. That doesn't mean you'd be OK with the Pomson unbanned, right?

What exactly makes the Wrangler different from the Pomson?

It's funny how vitasaw is allowed though since it's a crutch for doing bad (as a team for not protecting the medic or the medic having bad positioning).

I think that the vitasaw should be banned, since it just makes playing medic less fun. With the ubersaw you can get some clutch ubers which can save, or win you a round. You just can't do that with the vitasaw.

Is someone arguing with you about Pomson? I've only seen you mention it so far. I've used the pomson and its not that great. Its pretty tough to 1on1 anyone with. If a Medic knows you're using it he can stay out of those sight lines similar to Snipers. But take away the ability to remove uber % and its a pretty garbage weapon.

That argument sounds like you're saying we should ban the bonesaw too because it's not going to be as clutch as an ubersaw.

1. Name a game where the major competitive community competing in serious tournaments is larger than the pub scene. Highlander is barely competitive to begin with. It's pubbing with the same 9 people every time...

2. Highlander is huge because you don't really have to even switch into the competitive mentality to play it, you just keep on pubbing and spamming like you normally do, so pub players feel like they aren't making a huge transition into an organized form of play.

3. Ma3la says it as it is in the first part of this post right here:
http://ugcleague.com/forums/showpost.php?p=100445&postcount=140
I'm glad your entire huge playerbase of pubbers and pubstars was worth having most every serious player I talk to think your league is a joke (and a bad one). I have never seen UGC be taken as seriously as people do ESEA/CEVO.

i think the wrangler encourages more actual pushes instead of mindless spawning, rushing, and instantly dying which is what 90% of the players in ugc highlander do.

Yes, I know. No, no one was arguing about the Pomson, and if you read my posts, you'd see that I wasn't talking about it. I was comparing the Wrangler to it. To be honest the Wrangler is just as imbalanced as the Pomson, and if UGC bans one, then they should ban the other.

Infinite,

I personally don't care about a wrangler ban. My only thoughts on it are that it restricts engineer choice by being so strong that it's almost stupid not to take it in all cases. Decisions on whether or not it should be banned should be made by players who have more experience in the gametype than me.

However, your views on 6's are so misguided that they've actually managed to convinced me to post for the first time on this site, so congrats.

Firstly, I agree that unlock ban choices in 6's is completely different than in Highlander. We don't have as many options with less players to deal with strong weapons like the Wrangler. Valve simply makes no attempts to balance this game outside of public 12v12 play.

Luckily, Highlander is close enough to the 12v12 intended play - and by that, I mean casual players picking random classes they enjoy, not caring about winning or optimal class choices at all - that they can, for the most part, play the same game. Highlander has the luxury of restricting classes in a manner that most resembles a public server.

6's does not have this luxury.

When teams of players attempt to play optimally in this game, the game breaks down. Only a select few classes are viable in competition due to Valve's class design of some classes being generalists and others specialists. This game is actually so horribly imbalanced that the 6's community instituted class limits so it was playable and fun.

The 6's community has and will continue to balance itself because Valve will not. Of course it's going to be smaller than Highlander or any other gametype, it's easier to go to Highlander and play your favorite class than it is to accept the reality that the class you have over 1000 hours on is fucking awful. Highlander doesn't make every class viable, it just forces the terrible classes to be used so you can fool yourself into thinking you're actually playing a viable class.

I have no doubt that the amount of restrictions makes competitive 6's unfriendly to new players. However, how else is this game supposed to be playable? You either attempt to emulate the casual playerbase on public servers as much as possible with intense class limits like Highlander does, or you restrict the fuck out of weapons and put some limits on classes so the game doesn't devolve into nonstop stalemates with teams running multiple demomen.

As for your comment about playing the same game since 2007 - well, strategies and tactics change all the time. Perhaps Highlander hasn't had a metagame because you were too busy restricting invite (read: good) players?

Seagull,

I appreciate the polite, constructive post.

I feel that if we want TF2 to persist competitively whether it be 6s or HL, we all should all be attempting to design our competitive environments to be easily accessible to new players. Otherwise competition will eventually exhibit the "living dead syndrome" where there are mostly older, highly skilled veterans playing and very little new players getting into the game. In highlander this is easy because all the classes have an important role to play and only a small percentage of the weapons/items are banned.

The simple fact that you think classes other than the traditional 6s classes are "fucking awful" illustrates the bias I speak of which has persisted since the early days. Back in 2007, a lot of the other classes were "fucking awful" i'll admit. This meant that players who have been around a while like yourself have gotten used to the traditional 6s setup. The difference though is valve has slowly added items/abilities into the game over the years that have made them less awful. For instance: GRU, Sandwich, Wrangler, Degreaser, DR, etc. While most of the 6s community thinks these weapons are horribly unbalanced I contend that they in fact, re-balance the game to make the other classes more viable. With that being said, UGC still bans about 10 weapons which are either broken/completely unbalanced in the game so it's not like we allow everything.

I'd be interested in what some on this forum feel about the following little "thought exercise" I've mulled over quite a bit lately.

Let's say, hypothetically, TF2 was released in it's current 2012 state back in 2007. All the current weapons/items were in the game at the point of release. Be honest.. do you think ESEA/ETF2L (6s) would come up with the same exact ban lists? Probably not.. I am sure some of the major things 6s players don't like would carry over but I believe many of the weapons would be allowed and accepted as "part of the game". What does this say about the banlists today?

Yes, strategies and tactics have changed quite a bit but the overall way the game is played and especially the classes which are used are still the same. 2 soldiers, 2 scouts, 1 demo, 1 medic like 90% of the time. Regarding the invite limit, it was absolutely necessary back when ugc highlander first really started because we only had 1-2 troll teams treating the league like garbage. It helped us build a strong core group of about 150-250 teams of medium to low skill level. This was when UGC only had 1 division. Now that the league has exploded and we have multiple divisions, it made perfect sense to remove the limit for our top division (which we were planning on doing anyways). Now that it's been removed we see great things to come for UGC HL.

Lastly, I see a lot of criticism for our league but why are people not asking the same tough questions about ESEA? Even with all of eXtv's great work promoting the game and i46 you've seen a 38% drop in the number of teams this season. Why is that? Is it just some unique season 12 drop which will pop back up again in season 13 or is there a larger trend going on?