LKincheloesmakersI hope I'm wrong, but I think you're going to see the soldier game quickly begin to revolve around concheror. It's simply too strong to not run after middle.
Pocket or Roamer?
Clearly the new meta will be double Gunboats to mid, then soldiers using the buff banner and conch. HIGH SPEED MINI CRITS YEAHHH
[quote=LKincheloe][quote=smakers]
I hope I'm wrong, but I think you're going to see the soldier game quickly begin to revolve around concheror. It's simply too strong to not run after middle.[/quote]
Pocket or Roamer?[/quote]
Clearly the new meta will be double Gunboats to mid, then soldiers using the buff banner and conch. HIGH SPEED MINI CRITS YEAHHH
AllealRegardless, this meta you're predicting doesn't exist yet. Banning a weapon on hypothetical grounds isn't a good practice to have. You've got your prediction, now let's give it a chance and see what players do with it.
http://i.imgur.com/ami52zw.png
[quote=Alleal]Regardless, this meta you're predicting doesn't exist yet. Banning a weapon on hypothetical grounds isn't a good practice to have. You've got your prediction, now let's give it a chance and see what players do with it.[/quote]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/ami52zw.png[/img]
Alleal Sorry but this is the third time I've asked because I haven't gotten an answer yet. Has anyone been running the conch regularly outside of Gullywash? I have a difficult time seeing roamers abandon the jump-heavy, distraction oriented playstyle in favor of a completely passive one where they just charge conch and wait for uber.Regardless, this meta you're predicting doesn't exist yet. Banning a weapon on hypothetical grounds isn't a good practice to have. You've got your prediction, now let's give it a chance and see what players do with it. If it turns out you're right then we ban it next season. There should be a certain level of experimentation with the newly changed weapons before we just throw them away.
There are several people who have been running it more and more during stalemates. I don't necessarily disagree with your idea of, "run it for a while, then ban it if it's bad" but that mentality was the pushing force behind the quick fix debacle.
I'm not saying it should be banned, but I don't think the lower divisions have really seen just how incredible it is at this point. It was legal in the most recent season of ESEA, but it wasn't used much. I think it went unused primarily because people didn't think about it. I don't think it had anything to do with people thinking it was bad or even mediocre. Its use won't be limited to this, but I think you'll see lots of soldiers swapping to it after they die on mid if their team takes mid. It won't be restricted to pocket or roamer, although it would likely be more effective when carried by the pocket.
Solo uber and force uber standoff -> re-push immediately after with conch.
Conch uber vs. no uber
Uber vs. no uber -> re-push with conch post-uber
Non uber push w/conch through chokes or flanks
etc
I'm OK with seeing it play out for a season, but I do very much expect it to be like quick fix: one team will run it and that will ultimately force other teams to do that as well, because a conch push will beat a non-conch defense nearly every time, provided the conch team doesn't screw up royally.
synchro,
yo dog i ain't claimin' to be great ok
[quote=Alleal] Sorry but this is the third time I've asked because I haven't gotten an answer yet. Has anyone been running the conch regularly outside of Gullywash? I have a difficult time seeing roamers abandon the jump-heavy, distraction oriented playstyle in favor of a completely passive one where they just charge conch and wait for uber.Regardless, this meta you're predicting doesn't exist yet. Banning a weapon on hypothetical grounds isn't a good practice to have. You've got your prediction, now let's give it a chance and see what players do with it. If it turns out you're right then we ban it next season. There should be a certain level of experimentation with the newly changed weapons before we just throw them away.[/quote]
There are several people who have been running it more and more during stalemates. I don't necessarily disagree with your idea of, "run it for a while, then ban it if it's bad" but that mentality was the pushing force behind the quick fix debacle.
I'm not saying it should be banned, but I don't think the lower divisions have really seen just how incredible it is at this point. It was legal in the most recent season of ESEA, but it wasn't used much. I think it went unused primarily because people didn't think about it. I don't think it had anything to do with people thinking it was bad or even mediocre. Its use won't be limited to this, but I think you'll see lots of soldiers swapping to it after they die on mid if their team takes mid. It won't be restricted to pocket or roamer, although it would likely be more effective when carried by the pocket.
Solo uber and force uber standoff -> re-push immediately after with conch.
Conch uber vs. no uber
Uber vs. no uber -> re-push with conch post-uber
Non uber push w/conch through chokes or flanks
etc
I'm OK with seeing it play out for a season, but I do very much expect it to be like quick fix: one team will run it and that will ultimately force other teams to do that as well, because a conch push will beat a non-conch defense nearly every time, provided the conch team doesn't screw up royally.
synchro,
yo dog i ain't claimin' to be great ok
smakers because a conch push will beat a non-conch defense nearly every time
Wouldn't the Backup have been a legitimate counter were it allowed?
[quote=smakers] because a conch push will beat a non-conch defense nearly every time[/quote]
Wouldn't the Backup have been a legitimate counter were it allowed?
Was the quick-fix debacle really that bad though? I mean it obviously more or less ruined LAN, but besides that it was the most interesting thing to happen to TF2 in a long time. I thought it was really exciting to watch the meta develop right in front of me, and I was happy to see it banned too. There's always going to be good and bad when weapons get changed or added, and I feel like everyone's so afraid of the bad that we never get to see the good.
I can absolutely see it happening just as you described. Maybe by the end of the season there won't be any more gunboats roamers. But watching that transition and evolution (or even devolution) is exciting and has intrinsic value I think.
Was the quick-fix debacle really that bad though? I mean it obviously more or less ruined LAN, but besides that it was the most interesting thing to happen to TF2 in a long time. I thought it was really exciting to watch the meta develop right in front of me, and I was happy to see it banned too. There's always going to be good and bad when weapons get changed or added, and I feel like everyone's so afraid of the bad that we never get to see the good.
I can absolutely see it happening just as you described. Maybe by the end of the season there won't be any more gunboats roamers. But watching that transition and evolution (or even devolution) is exciting and has intrinsic value I think.
I think Smaka's point is that expanding the meta is great, just not during matches. Unless of course maybe we want to use CEVO as a sandbox for unlocks . . . but that is something else.
I think Smaka's point is that expanding the meta is great, just not during matches. Unless of course maybe we want to use CEVO as a sandbox for unlocks . . . but that is something else.
AllealWas the quick-fix debacle really that bad though? I mean it obviously more or less ruined LAN, but besides that it was the most interesting thing to happen to TF2 in a long time. I thought it was really exciting to watch the meta develop right in front of me, and I was happy to see it banned too. There's always going to be good and bad when weapons get changed or added, and I feel like everyone's so afraid of the bad that we never get to see the good.
I can absolutely see it happening just as you described. Maybe by the end of the season there won't be any more gunboats roamers. But watching that transition and evolution (or even devolution) is exciting and has intrinsic value I think.
I figure in the long run the Quick Fix will open more doors than it will close, if you pair any of the mediguns up with one or two of the backpack secondaries you can create some magic with them.
I don't think the Gunboat Roamer is going away, but there will be more flexibility demanded from the Roamer position from here on out.
[quote=Alleal]Was the quick-fix debacle really that bad though? I mean it obviously more or less ruined LAN, but besides that it was the most interesting thing to happen to TF2 in a long time. I thought it was really exciting to watch the meta develop right in front of me, and I was happy to see it banned too. There's always going to be good and bad when weapons get changed or added, and I feel like everyone's so afraid of the bad that we never get to see the good.
I can absolutely see it happening just as you described. Maybe by the end of the season there won't be any more gunboats roamers. But watching that transition and evolution (or even devolution) is exciting and has intrinsic value I think.[/quote]
I figure in the long run the Quick Fix will open more doors than it will close, if you pair any of the mediguns up with one or two of the backpack secondaries you can create some magic with them.
I don't think the Gunboat Roamer is going away, but there will be more flexibility demanded from the Roamer position from here on out.
BLoodSireUnless of course maybe we want to use CEVO as a sandbox for unlocks . . .
like using CEVO S4 as a sandbox for CEVO S5? sounds like a plan
[quote=BLoodSire]Unless of course maybe we want to use CEVO as a sandbox for unlocks . . .[/quote]
like using CEVO S4 as a sandbox for CEVO S5? sounds like a plan
BLoodSireI think Smaka's point is that expanding the meta is great, just not during matches. Unless of course maybe we want to use CEVO as a sandbox for unlocks . . . but that is something else.
How do you expand the meta then? Where else are you going to find a variety of players from multiple skill levels choosing to play with an unlock for an extended period of time? It's the same problem as testing new maps. Nobody will play them seriously unless they're mandatory.
I don't see what's wrong with allowing new maps/unlocks into rotation without 'sufficient testing,' because they will never ever get 'sufficient testing' otherwise. We just played with Coalplant, most of us didn't like it. So we voted it out. But did it absolutely ruin anyone's season? Were they unable to enjoy tf2 because of that map? I don't think so, and if there is someone who was affected like that I think they have bigger issues with the game than Coalplant.
[quote=BLoodSire]I think Smaka's point is that expanding the meta is great, just not during matches. Unless of course maybe we want to use CEVO as a sandbox for unlocks . . . but that is something else.[/quote]
How do you expand the meta then? Where else are you going to find a variety of players from multiple skill levels choosing to play with an unlock for an extended period of time? It's the same problem as testing new maps. Nobody will play them seriously unless they're mandatory.
I don't see what's wrong with allowing new maps/unlocks into rotation without 'sufficient testing,' because they will never ever get 'sufficient testing' otherwise. We just played with Coalplant, most of us didn't like it. So we voted it out. But did it absolutely ruin anyone's season? Were they unable to enjoy tf2 because of that map? I don't think so, and if there is someone who was affected like that I think they have bigger issues with the game than Coalplant.
Alleal,
I am not suggesting that the 'meta' never change. I thoroughly enjoyed the quick fix; perhaps I even enjoyed it more than anyone else, but I definitely see its problems. I played viaduct the week the battalion's backup was buffed--against a team who ran it and it won the map for them. I was in the fabled platinum gully last push with conch. That push alone should be an indicator as to why the conch should not be allowed. We stalemated for 20 minutes, then wham, one conch and we win the round.
I've played a lot of scrims with and against high level teams on various maps where the conch is used (during this offseason primarily--people either didn't think about it before or had an unwritten rule to not use it, despite it being legal in ESEA last season). It doesn't necessarily win the push for you, but it makes any push a hell of a lot easier.
I feel like it would be a nice addition if it required another 400-600 damage to charge, and if the meter instantly started fading down after it fills (additional damage will charge it up, but it would be constantly draining). This would force it to be used immediately rather than the typical 'build it, save that soldier with uber if necessary, then conch in immediately after ubers are traded, giving your team an incredible advantage in any situation'.
I guess what I'm getting at is that it's been used enough lately that I feel it can be adequately diagnosed as overpowered and an item that unnecessarily creates one-way fights. I am suggesting that gaining a full meter all but guarantees your team's success in the next push.
Sure, with it being allowed, defending teams will come up with better ways to counter it. I'm certain some people would enjoy watching that develop. I just feel like I've seen enough to determine that it has no place in 6v6.
LKincheloePocket or Roamer?
Pocket makes the most sense because he's more likely to live long enough to get it, but if the pocket survives mid and the roamer dies, roamer equips it and roamer/pocket halfway swap roles while it's being charged.
r4ptureWouldn't the Backup have been a legitimate counter were it allowed?
I doubt it. It drops your damage taken, which would partially suppress the vampire health the other team receives, but not completely and there'd still be the speed boost that wouldn't be negated.
Quindalilike using CEVO S4 as a sandbox for CEVO S5? sounds like a plan
Obviously this is what's occurring. While it's understandable, I just feel it was unnecessary to risk turning the pinnacle season of your league into a feverishly derided fiasco in an effort to propitiate the players in lower divisions who have complained that they don't get to choose what weapons are allowed in ESEA.
Oh well. I was merely expressing an opinion, so hopefully nobody feels offended. I do hope for the best from the season.
Alleal,
I am not suggesting that the 'meta' never change. I thoroughly enjoyed the quick fix; perhaps I even enjoyed it more than anyone else, but I definitely see its problems. I played viaduct the week the battalion's backup was buffed--against a team who ran it and it won the map for them. I was in the fabled platinum gully last push with conch. That push alone should be an indicator as to why the conch should not be allowed. We stalemated for 20 minutes, then wham, one conch and we win the round.
I've played a lot of scrims with and against high level teams on various maps where the conch is used (during this offseason primarily--people either didn't think about it before or had an unwritten rule to not use it, despite it being legal in ESEA last season). It doesn't necessarily win the push for you, but it makes any push a hell of a lot easier.
I feel like it would be a nice addition if it required another 400-600 damage to charge, and if the meter instantly started fading down after it fills (additional damage will charge it up, but it would be constantly draining). This would force it to be used immediately rather than the typical 'build it, save that soldier with uber if necessary, then conch in immediately after ubers are traded, giving your team an incredible advantage in any situation'.
I guess what I'm getting at is that it's been used enough lately that I feel it can be adequately diagnosed as overpowered and an item that unnecessarily creates one-way fights. I am suggesting that gaining a full meter all but guarantees your team's success in the next push.
Sure, with it being allowed, defending teams will come up with better ways to counter it. I'm certain some people would enjoy watching that develop. I just feel like I've seen enough to determine that it has no place in 6v6.
[quote=LKincheloe]
Pocket or Roamer?[/quote]
Pocket makes the most sense because he's more likely to live long enough to get it, but if the pocket survives mid and the roamer dies, roamer equips it and roamer/pocket halfway swap roles while it's being charged.
[quote=r4pture]
Wouldn't the Backup have been a legitimate counter were it allowed?[/quote]
I doubt it. It drops your damage taken, which would partially suppress the vampire health the other team receives, but not completely and there'd still be the speed boost that wouldn't be negated.
[quote=Quindali]
like using CEVO S4 as a sandbox for CEVO S5? sounds like a plan[/quote]
Obviously this is what's occurring. While it's understandable, I just feel it was unnecessary to risk turning the pinnacle season of your league into a feverishly derided fiasco in an effort to propitiate the players in lower divisions who have complained that they don't get to choose what weapons are allowed in ESEA.
Oh well. I was merely expressing an opinion, so hopefully nobody feels offended. I do hope for the best from the season.