57R4c3:(
shotgun does 80-90 at close range (aka the range where you could set shit on fire) and flare gun is difficult to hit with outside of that range because it is not hitscan
also fire rate of shotgun is way higher
flare gun isn't difficult to get crits with but it's definitely harder to get crits with (aka do a significant amount of damage with) than it is to click on someone at any range with the shotgun and do a more reliable and probably equivalent dps
[quote=57R4c3]:([/quote]
shotgun does 80-90 at close range (aka the range where you could set shit on fire) and flare gun is difficult to hit with outside of that range because it is not hitscan
also fire rate of shotgun is way higher
flare gun isn't difficult to get crits with but it's definitely harder to get crits with (aka do a significant amount of damage with) than it is to click on someone at any range with the shotgun and do a more reliable and probably equivalent dps
Alleali don't understand why anyone would try to nerf the degreaser. It doesn't matter if airblast costs more or it doesn't reflect minicrits it's still the best choice for a Pyro that plans on doing a lot of fighting.
Weapon switch speed is so crucial to pyro that the only way to balance other unlocks with it is to either make it a stock effect (the correct answer) or to remove it. No amount of indirect nerfs will balance it, only break it entirely.
untrue
you could also buff the non-degreaser flamethrowers' attacking power to make them less reliant on switching weapons
making everything the degreaser is ONE solution to balance the shitty primaries, but it's not the only solution
and it's a really boring solution imo
[quote=Alleal]i don't understand why anyone would try to nerf the degreaser. It doesn't matter if airblast costs more or it doesn't reflect minicrits it's still the best choice for a Pyro that plans on doing a lot of fighting.
Weapon switch speed is so crucial to pyro that the only way to balance other unlocks with it is to either make it a stock effect (the correct answer) or to remove it. No amount of indirect nerfs will balance it, only break it entirely.[/quote]
untrue
you could also buff the non-degreaser flamethrowers' attacking power to make them less reliant on switching weapons
making everything the degreaser is ONE solution to balance the shitty primaries, but it's not the only solution
and it's a really boring solution imo
anything advancing mobility would be amazing, perhaps a weapon like the detonator for jumping/but with bhopping available while the weapon is out.
pretty much this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4WLmdQJgw8
but with this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He_rcRGvLlw&list=UUf3PDb_Ty9XO49sELeJ_XIQ
anything advancing mobility would be amazing, perhaps a weapon like the detonator for jumping/but with bhopping available while the weapon is out.
pretty much this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4WLmdQJgw8
but with this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He_rcRGvLlw&list=UUf3PDb_Ty9XO49sELeJ_XIQ
Remember when pyro was supposed to be a flanking class (see: backburner) and not on the front lines spamming m2? Those were the days.
Remember when pyro was supposed to be a flanking class (see: backburner) and not on the front lines spamming m2? Those were the days.
Uhhh try and play pyro on the front lines in 6s or HL. you're gonna get shredded unless you're getting massive support from your team.
Uhhh try and play pyro on the front lines in 6s or HL. you're gonna get shredded unless you're getting massive support from your team.
Pyro is an annoying class because it is VERY OP in some situations yet SUPER under powered in others. Let me put it you like this. All classes are like this except pyro is an extreme version. Sniper is good for long range. Yet at long range it still takes skill. Soldier is good at medium range. Demo is good at all equal at all ranges. But it requires a lot of skill and game sense. Heavy is good at long short range and would be as op as the pyro EXPET IT MOVES SLOW AS FUCK and has a huge hit box. Pyro is basically a super fast heavy with a very strong long range weapon. (Flare Gun) and is unbeatable at short range. A pyro is no good on a comp team it can be called out. Yet on pubs and pyro can just walk through really tight areas and dominate the field. All i am saying is the pyro is way to Op in some situations and ass long as you stay in that situation in a pub you will be golden. Just stay in small rooms and even b4nny wont be able to stop you. Pyro is no op as a class. But because tf2 pubs all some players to camp certain ares where their class will have such and uper hand that even skill wont win the battle.
end rant.
Pyro is an annoying class because it is VERY OP in some situations yet SUPER under powered in others. Let me put it you like this. All classes are like this except pyro is an extreme version. Sniper is good for long range. Yet at long range it still takes skill. Soldier is good at medium range. Demo is good at all equal at all ranges. But it requires a lot of skill and game sense. Heavy is good at long short range and would be as op as the pyro EXPET IT MOVES SLOW AS FUCK and has a huge hit box. Pyro is basically a super fast heavy with a very strong long range weapon. (Flare Gun) and is unbeatable at short range. A pyro is no good on a comp team it can be called out. Yet on pubs and pyro can just walk through really tight areas and dominate the field. All i am saying is the pyro is way to Op in some situations and ass long as you stay in that situation in a pub you will be golden. Just stay in small rooms and even b4nny wont be able to stop you. Pyro is no op as a class. But because tf2 pubs all some players to camp certain ares where their class will have such and uper hand that even skill wont win the battle.
end rant.
imo, i dont think pyro should be nerfed to the extent that people are suggesting in this thread. Although, i do like the idea of 60 dmg crits at close range and 90 at long range for the flare gun. Also maybe make the degreaser afterburn half of what the default flamethrower does? I don't think that there should be any nerfs to the mobility of the class being as pyro is an ambush class.
imo, i dont think pyro should be nerfed to the extent that people are suggesting in this thread. Although, i do like the idea of 60 dmg crits at close range and 90 at long range for the flare gun. Also maybe make the degreaser afterburn half of what the default flamethrower does? I don't think that there should be any nerfs to the mobility of the class being as pyro is an ambush class.
ulmyxxPyro is basically a super fast heavy with a very strong long range weapon. (Flare Gun)
you will not be able to hit 2 long ranged flares on any player who is not afk or walking in a straight line
and is unbeatable at short range
minigun has like 4 times flamethrower dps, and much larger range. slow movement doesn't matter when you're holding last. pyro has no advanced mobility and similar dps to pretty much every other class, on a shittier weapon (projectile tracking is very difficult to get a high accuracy on), unless you meant he axtinguisher, which literally requires point blank.
Yet on pubs and pyro can just walk through really tight areas and dominate the field.
so can soldiers and demos and heavies except they're not completely neutered by mini-sentries and big sentries and other heavies and other pyros and can kill things without getting close to them
All i am saying is the pyro is way to Op in some situations and ass long as you stay in that situation in a pub you will be golden. Just stay in small rooms and even b4nny wont be able to stop you. Pyro is no op as a class. But because tf2 pubs all some players to camp certain ares where their class will have such and uper hand that even skill wont win the battle.
pyro isn't the best class at short range
it's like
the fourth best after soldier heavy scout (outclassing such cqc terrors as sniper, spy, and medic)
it's "op" in pubs because it's relatively easy for shit players to flamethrower people walking in straight lines and hold down m2 against shit soldiers
and also inflate the score with extinguish points that are literally worthless
EDIT: oh yeah the phlog also wrecks bad pubs pretty hard
[quote=ulmyxx]Pyro is basically a super fast heavy with a very strong long range weapon. (Flare Gun)[/quote]
you will not be able to hit 2 long ranged flares on any player who is not afk or walking in a straight line
[quote]and is unbeatable at short range[/quote]
minigun has like 4 times flamethrower dps, and much larger range. slow movement doesn't matter when you're holding last. pyro has no advanced mobility and similar dps to pretty much every other class, on a shittier weapon (projectile tracking is very difficult to get a high accuracy on), unless you meant he axtinguisher, which literally requires point blank.
[quote]Yet on pubs and pyro can just walk through really tight areas and dominate the field.[/quote]
so can soldiers and demos and heavies except they're not completely neutered by mini-sentries and big sentries and other heavies and other pyros and can kill things without getting close to them
[quote]All i am saying is the pyro is way to Op in some situations and ass long as you stay in that situation in a pub you will be golden. Just stay in small rooms and even b4nny wont be able to stop you. Pyro is no op as a class. But because tf2 pubs all some players to camp certain ares where their class will have such and uper hand that even skill wont win the battle.[/quote]
pyro isn't the best class at short range
it's like
the fourth best after soldier heavy scout (outclassing such cqc terrors as sniper, spy, and medic)
it's "op" in pubs because it's relatively easy for shit players to flamethrower people walking in straight lines and hold down m2 against shit soldiers
and also inflate the score with extinguish points that are literally worthless
EDIT: oh yeah the phlog also wrecks bad pubs pretty hard
strongsuitOn the flipside, I don't think "buff the escape plan" is any sort of solution. There's a reason the escape plan was nerfed 3x in a row yet still remains insanely popular. It doesn't need a buff.
In all fairness, the reason for the nerfs was because (with exception of the very first one) valve listened to the complaints voiced on SPUF by a multitude players who, for the most part, had no idea what they were talking about.
The logic was "it's a direct upgrade, oh no"
So his comparison isn't really of the weapons themselves, but more the logic behind their statistics. That logic being:
"oh no, the escape plan is a direct upgrade, and there is no reason to use another melee weapon instead, NERF IT; don't worry though, none of the myriad of OP gimmicky ass pyro weapons are 'direct upgrades' (because all of the pyro's other unlocks are also OP and gimmicky as fuck)"
[quote=strongsuit]
On the flipside, I don't think "buff the escape plan" is any sort of solution. There's a reason the escape plan was nerfed 3x in a row yet still remains insanely popular. It doesn't need a buff.
[/quote]
In all fairness, the reason for the nerfs was because (with exception of the very first one) valve listened to the complaints voiced on SPUF by a multitude players who, for the most part, had no idea what they were talking about.
The logic was "it's a direct upgrade, oh no"
So his comparison isn't really of the weapons themselves, but more the logic behind their statistics. That logic being:
"oh no, the escape plan is a direct upgrade, and there is no reason to use another melee weapon instead, NERF IT; don't worry though, none of the myriad of OP gimmicky ass pyro weapons are 'direct upgrades' (because all of the pyro's other unlocks are also OP and gimmicky as fuck)"
The class is centered around playing as gay as possible. Low risk high reward... Crits and minicrits that you literally cannot dodge and are nearly impossible to miss. Airblast should have a much lessened effect on heavier classes.
The class is centered around playing as gay as possible. Low risk high reward... Crits and minicrits that you literally cannot dodge and are nearly impossible to miss. Airblast should have a much lessened effect on heavier classes.
imo: airblast needs to be completely reworked. RS thrown out. Flares are fine as long as airblast gets reworked, but could use a small nerf I suppose. axtingusher should do minicrits on burning targets. Needs a buff to mobility that doesn't make it op and has more of a downside than 10% damage taken increase, maybe det jumping buff?
imo: airblast needs to be completely reworked. RS thrown out. Flares are fine as long as airblast gets reworked, but could use a small nerf I suppose. axtingusher should do minicrits on burning targets. Needs a buff to mobility that doesn't make it op and has more of a downside than 10% damage taken increase, maybe det jumping buff?
pretty much airblast bugs need to be fixed and maybe make it proximity based/airblast depending on where you hit them like splash damage
and reserve shooter needs to be removed from pyro so it can finally get a buff on soldier to make it even somewhat viable
pyro also needs to have like more item variety as there are alot of items but no one really uses anything but degreaser shotty flare axetinguisher and the powerjack
pretty much airblast bugs need to be fixed and maybe make it proximity based/airblast depending on where you hit them like splash damage
and reserve shooter needs to be removed from pyro so it can finally get a buff on soldier to make it even somewhat viable
pyro also needs to have like more item variety as there are alot of items but no one really uses anything but degreaser shotty flare axetinguisher and the powerjack
Since I don't know how well this is even going to work in the end, I might as well share my current experiment so far.
There's an unused item attribute that turns the airblast into a charged tool, like Demoman's stickybombs. (There's no meter.) You can't attack while charging. This currently only applies to stock.
I took the mechanic and halved all forces applied, and ended up with a two-leveled airblast:
- A twitch-blast, that reflects projectiles but nudges players
- A charge-blast that works like the standard airblast
The basic mechanics function, but there are some problems:
- Despite my efforts, running is stalled out in most cases.
- Lag between the server and the client (and lack of official attention, I bet) causes it to feel "wonky".
I'm going to keep tweaking this rework, if it seems worthwhile. My current theory is that simple traction with the ground is to blame for its stalling, so I have to increase the vertical force just enough to reach "escape velocity". If you're running directly away (or jumping more-or-less away) from the Pyro, you'll be boosted: in every other scenario, the results are... sub-optimal.
This mechanic allows for projectile-defense, though the input-delay makes it a bit trickier; rewards ambush blasts, though makes juggling nearly impossible; and stalls ubers, though likely just the one time you're able to prepare for it. Assuming everything flowed on a technological level, the victim player would maintain their momentum to a very considerable degree, giving them the ability to respond to the encroaching Pyro in a few ways.
(Also, hopefully, the final result will allow for fully-charged blasts off Upward that would be as impractical as they are hilarious, and we would all love them: I'm not holding out for any part of that, though.)
Hopefully, this addresses the core complaints people have with the airblast. Whether I've produced work to your liking or missed the point by a country mile, please let me know.
If you want, I can put the mod on my server for you to try out with friends; but it's not done, and I'm about to go to bed, so speak up quick.
Since I don't know how well this is even going to work in the end, I might as well share my current experiment so far.
There's an unused item attribute that turns the airblast into a charged tool, like Demoman's stickybombs. (There's no meter.) You can't attack while charging. This currently only applies to stock.
I took the mechanic and halved all forces applied, and ended up with a two-leveled airblast:
[olist]
[*] A twitch-blast, that reflects projectiles but nudges players
[*] A charge-blast that works like the standard airblast
[/olist]
The basic mechanics function, but there are some problems:
[list]
[*] Despite my efforts, running is stalled out in most cases.
[*] Lag between the server and the client (and lack of official attention, I bet) causes it to feel "wonky".
[/list]
I'm going to keep tweaking this rework, if it seems worthwhile. My current theory is that simple traction with the ground is to blame for its stalling, so I have to increase the vertical force just enough to reach "escape velocity". If you're running directly away (or jumping more-or-less away) from the Pyro, you'll be boosted: in every other scenario, the results are... sub-optimal.
This mechanic allows for projectile-defense, though the input-delay makes it a bit trickier; rewards ambush blasts, though makes juggling nearly impossible; and stalls ubers, though likely just the one time you're able to prepare for it. Assuming everything flowed on a technological level, the victim player would maintain their momentum to a very considerable degree, giving them the ability to respond to the encroaching Pyro in a few ways.
(Also, hopefully, the final result will allow for fully-charged blasts off Upward that would be as impractical as they are hilarious, and we would all love them: I'm not holding out for any part of that, though.)
Hopefully, this addresses the core complaints people have with the airblast. Whether I've produced work to your liking or missed the point by a country mile, please let me know.
If you want, I can put the mod on my server for you to try out with friends; but it's not done, and I'm about to go to bed, so speak up quick.
I still want lightning gun.
I still want lightning gun.
AlfonsoCrawford-snip-
So basically, you turned the airblast into one of these
https://www.thinkgeek.com/product/60b6/
[quote=AlfonsoCrawford]-snip-[/quote]
So basically, you turned the airblast into one of these
https://www.thinkgeek.com/product/60b6/
Napalm launcher like in TFC. Though I suppose the flare gun is kinda that, so meh.
Napalm launcher like in TFC. Though I suppose the flare gun is kinda that, so meh.
Thread seems to have died down a bit. Guess I'll have to make a video or something?
Thread seems to have died down a bit. Guess I'll have to make a video or something?
AlfonsoCrawfordThread seems to have died down a bit. Guess I'll have to make a video or something?
That would be nice, and if you want feedback on your mod then you're going to need to put a server up/ put the mod on your server so people can actually try it.
[quote=AlfonsoCrawford]Thread seems to have died down a bit. Guess I'll have to make a video or something?[/quote]
That would be nice, and if you want feedback on your mod then you're going to need to put a server up/ put the mod on your server so people can actually try it.
[img]http://puu.sh/7mYRn.jpg[/img]
hanbroloAlfonsoCrawfordThread seems to have died down a bit. Guess I'll have to make a video or something?
That would be nice, and if you want feedback on your mod then you're going to need to put a server up/ put the mod on your server so people can actually try it.
There's a link to my server on my site, found in the first post. I don't know all the rules here, so I played it safe in assuming that directly linking to a server was prohibited, as it is on SPUF.
If it's OK, shit. I just worked out the kinks to the new airblast, so I'll post links f' days, ya heard~?
[quote=hanbrolo][quote=AlfonsoCrawford]Thread seems to have died down a bit. Guess I'll have to make a video or something?[/quote]
That would be nice, and if you want feedback on your mod then you're going to need to put a server up/ put the mod on your server so people can actually try it.[/quote]
There's a link to my server on my site, found in the first post. I don't know all the rules here, so I played it safe in assuming that directly linking to a server was prohibited, as it is on SPUF.
If it's OK, shit. I just worked out the kinks to the new airblast, so I'll post links f' days, ya heard~?
AlfonsoCrawfordhanbroloAlfonsoCrawfordThread seems to have died down a bit. Guess I'll have to make a video or something?
That would be nice, and if you want feedback on your mod then you're going to need to put a server up/ put the mod on your server so people can actually try it.
There's a link to my server on my site, found in the first post. I don't know all the rules here, so I played it safe in assuming that directly linking to a server was prohibited, as it is on SPUF.
If it's OK, shit. I just worked out the kinks to the new airblast, so I'll post links f' days, ya heard~?
Go ahead and post it, I think a LOT of people have a genuine interest in trying out changes to Pyro.
[quote=AlfonsoCrawford][quote=hanbrolo][quote=AlfonsoCrawford]Thread seems to have died down a bit. Guess I'll have to make a video or something?[/quote]
That would be nice, and if you want feedback on your mod then you're going to need to put a server up/ put the mod on your server so people can actually try it.[/quote]
There's a link to my server on my site, found in the first post. I don't know all the rules here, so I played it safe in assuming that directly linking to a server was prohibited, as it is on SPUF.
If it's OK, shit. I just worked out the kinks to the new airblast, so I'll post links f' days, ya heard~?[/quote]
Go ahead and post it, I think a LOT of people have a genuine interest in trying out changes to Pyro.
It's up!
Game Server: [b]madamlaunch.game.nfoservers.com[/b]
[b][url=http://alfonsocrawford.com/sickburn/]Official Information and Downloads[/url][/b]
I'm sure you are already very far into the development process, but honestly the only thing wrong with pyro is the execution of airblast mechanics.
I think if the only thing that was changed was how airblasts affect momentum then pyro would be significantly less annoying to play against. I.e. if airblast functioned as like very large radius splash damage (without the damage obviously) it would make pyro significantly more difficult but still not remove the usefulness of the class in many situations.
I'm sure you are already very far into the development process, but honestly the only thing wrong with pyro is the execution of airblast mechanics.
I think if the only thing that was changed was how airblasts affect momentum then pyro would be significantly less annoying to play against. I.e. if airblast functioned as like very large radius splash damage (without the damage obviously) it would make pyro significantly more difficult but still not remove the usefulness of the class in many situations.
jake_I'm sure you are already very far into the development process, but honestly the only thing wrong with pyro is the execution of airblast mechanics.
I think if the only thing that was changed was how airblasts affect momentum then pyro would be significantly less annoying to play against. I.e. if airblast functioned as like very large radius splash damage (without the damage obviously) it would make pyro significantly more difficult but still not remove the usefulness of the class in many situations.
I've done as much as I can with the tools available to me. It's a little jittery-looking on account of charged airblasting not being fully hashed out on Valve's part, but it gets the job done. Player momentum in maintained. Scouts get a slight buff against Pyro, since their speed counteracts the modified airblast when it's at twitch-level.
This should make combat considerably more dynamic and engaging for everyone.
[quote=jake_]I'm sure you are already very far into the development process, but honestly the only thing wrong with pyro is the execution of airblast mechanics.
I think if the only thing that was changed was how airblasts affect momentum then pyro would be significantly less annoying to play against. I.e. if airblast functioned as like very large radius splash damage (without the damage obviously) it would make pyro significantly more difficult but still not remove the usefulness of the class in many situations.[/quote]
I've done as much as I can with the tools available to me. It's a little jittery-looking on account of charged airblasting not being fully hashed out on Valve's part, but it gets the job done. Player momentum in maintained. Scouts get a slight buff against Pyro, since their speed counteracts the modified airblast when it's at twitch-level.
This should make combat considerably more dynamic and engaging for everyone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvyUhhRu3fo
It's kinda slow, but it (awkwardly) gets the point across. ^^;
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvyUhhRu3fo[/youtube]
It's kinda slow, but it (awkwardly) gets the point across. ^^;