I've had this idea in my head for years that most successful multiplayer shooters have a shared characteristic that is the key to their success, and for some reason I call it "arcadeness". A game is arcadey when its mechanics are easy to understand but very hard to master, and when classes/characters/weapons/items/whatever don't create situations that are impossible to predict. Movement is key to this, because a game with unpredictable movement is impossible to master. For the same reason, weapons that are unpredictable (random crits) or can't be outmaneuvered (airblast), make the game less arcadey.
I believe this is the main reason why Counter-Strike 1.6 stayed in the Steam top 10 for more than a decade, and is still in the top 20 today, after two sequels, being infested with cheaters, and being forgotten by Valve for a very long time (mostly — Alfred Reynolds is the best). Movement and weapon accuracy/spread patterns in CS are simple to understand, hard to master, and nothing is unpredictable, which means the replay value is nearly infinite.
So when I apply this idea to TF2 I can easily see why things like random crits, airblasts, sentry guns, wrangled sentry guns, firethrower + lag prediction causing flames to reach a mile in front of a pyro, etc. ruin the fun. They make the game less arcadey.
Sorry for the wall of text. I've never really written this down before.
Edit: not just shooters, multiplayer games in general. TrackMania is a good example: it's a racing game, very arcadey, with a healthy and active player base.
I've had this idea in my head for years that most successful multiplayer shooters have a shared characteristic that is the key to their success, and for some reason I call it "arcadeness". A game is arcadey when its mechanics are easy to understand but very hard to master, and when classes/characters/weapons/items/whatever don't create situations that are impossible to predict. Movement is key to this, because a game with unpredictable movement is impossible to master. For the same reason, weapons that are unpredictable (random crits) or can't be outmaneuvered (airblast), make the game less arcadey.
I believe this is the main reason why Counter-Strike 1.6 stayed in the Steam top 10 for more than a decade, and is still in the top 20 today, after two sequels, being infested with cheaters, and being forgotten by Valve for a very long time (mostly — Alfred Reynolds is the best). Movement and weapon accuracy/spread patterns in CS are simple to understand, hard to master, and nothing is unpredictable, which means the replay value is nearly infinite.
So when I apply this idea to TF2 I can easily see why things like random crits, airblasts, sentry guns, wrangled sentry guns, firethrower + lag prediction causing flames to reach a mile in front of a pyro, etc. ruin the fun. They make the game less arcadey.
Sorry for the wall of text. I've never really written this down before.
Edit: not just shooters, multiplayer games in general. TrackMania is a good example: it's a racing game, very arcadey, with a healthy and active player base.
i thought the main reason nobody plays those classes in comp is because they are all too slow
i know there are stalemates but i couldnt imagine winning a teamfight then waiting for your heavy to run over or your engie to carry his gun. also god damn heavy needs about 10x the heals of a pocket
i thought the main reason nobody plays those classes in comp is because they are all too slow
i know there are stalemates but i couldnt imagine winning a teamfight then waiting for your heavy to run over or your engie to carry his gun. also god damn heavy needs about 10x the heals of a pocket
Menth_you've probably never encountered a good soldier or demo while playing pyro then. when they get out of your "rocket spamming" comfort zone and actually think about their shots and can actually manage to shoot at your feet.
also would like to point out that you can easily kill a pyro if you two are not on the same ground level, with fast, surprise attacks. you're not supposed to run at him, with the pyro facing you. of course you're gonna get airblasted/ your projectiles reflected.
where are you when we need you johnmilter
[quote=Menth_]you've probably never encountered a good soldier or demo while playing pyro then. when they get out of your "rocket spamming" comfort zone and actually think about their shots and can actually manage to shoot at your feet.
also would like to point out that you can easily kill a pyro if you two are not on the same ground level, with fast, surprise attacks. you're not supposed to run at him, with the pyro facing you. of course you're gonna get airblasted/ your projectiles reflected.[/quote]
where are you when we need you johnmilter
Pyro: airblasting blocking ubers is a low risk low skill high reward broken mechanic. The entire class is designed around the player not being able to aim and being as gay as possible.
Heavy: I don't think anyone really hates heavy just slows the game down a lot.
Engineer: Mini sentries are stupid.
You forgot to say spy, and it's hated because it's also low skill high reward especially with the deadringer where you have to do enough damage to kill 4 heavies to kill the spy.
Pyro: airblasting blocking ubers is a low risk low skill high reward broken mechanic. The entire class is designed around the player not being able to aim and being as gay as possible.
Heavy: I don't think anyone really hates heavy just slows the game down a lot.
Engineer: Mini sentries are stupid.
You forgot to say spy, and it's hated because it's also low skill high reward especially with the deadringer where you have to do enough damage to kill 4 heavies to kill the spy.
pine_beetleYou forgot to say spy, and it's hated because it's also low skill high reward especially with the deadringer where you have to do enough damage to kill 4 heavies to kill the spy.
Spy is more of a gamble than anything else, while you're up as one your team is effectively down a player which if the other team notices and has uber it's a free push. In your DR example it's usually easier to scrape the spy off of you, uber push and deal with him later.
[quote=pine_beetle]
You forgot to say spy, and it's hated because it's also low skill high reward especially with the deadringer where you have to do enough damage to kill 4 heavies to kill the spy.[/quote]
Spy is more of a gamble than anything else, while you're up as one your team is effectively down a player which if the other team notices and has uber it's a free push. In your DR example it's usually easier to scrape the spy off of you, uber push and deal with him later.
LKincheloepine_beetleYou forgot to say spy, and it's hated because it's also low skill high reward especially with the deadringer where you have to do enough damage to kill 4 heavies to kill the spy.
Spy is more of a gamble than anything else, while you're up as one your team is effectively down a player which if the other team notices and has uber it's a free push. In your DR example it's usually easier to scrape the spy off of you, uber push and deal with him later.
If you're thinking about 6 vs 6 then yes. Otherwise no spy is stupid deadringer is stupid.
[quote=LKincheloe][quote=pine_beetle]
You forgot to say spy, and it's hated because it's also low skill high reward especially with the deadringer where you have to do enough damage to kill 4 heavies to kill the spy.[/quote]
Spy is more of a gamble than anything else, while you're up as one your team is effectively down a player which if the other team notices and has uber it's a free push. In your DR example it's usually easier to scrape the spy off of you, uber push and deal with him later.[/quote]
If you're thinking about 6 vs 6 then yes. Otherwise no spy is stupid deadringer is stupid.
Menth_you've probably never encountered a good soldier or demo while playing pyro then. when they get out of your "rocket spamming" comfort zone and actually think about their shots and can actually manage to shoot at your feet.
also would like to point out that you can easily kill a pyro if you two are not on the same ground level, with fast, surprise attacks. you're not supposed to run at him, with the pyro facing you. of course you're gonna get airblasted/ your projectiles reflected.
What about when you try to rocket jump away from one, and he airblasts you as you jump away, which for some ungodly reason reduces your movement speed? Pyro airblast mechanics literally make no sense and are incredibly frustrating to play against. If they reduced the hitbox of airblast and made it just like normal explosion knockback then the class would be fine.
[quote=Menth_]you've probably never encountered a good soldier or demo while playing pyro then. when they get out of your "rocket spamming" comfort zone and actually think about their shots and can actually manage to shoot at your feet.
also would like to point out that you can easily kill a pyro if you two are not on the same ground level, with fast, surprise attacks. you're not supposed to run at him, with the pyro facing you. of course you're gonna get airblasted/ your projectiles reflected.[/quote]
What about when you try to rocket jump away from one, and he airblasts you as you jump away, which for some ungodly reason reduces your movement speed? Pyro airblast mechanics literally make no sense and are incredibly frustrating to play against. If they reduced the hitbox of airblast and made it just like normal explosion knockback then the class would be fine.
Menth_If they reduced the hitbox of airblast and made it just like normal explosion knockback then the class would be fine.
yeah and the airblast radius is too damn big
edit: quoting
[quote=Menth_]If they reduced the hitbox of airblast and made it just like normal explosion knockback then the class would be fine.[/quote]
yeah and the airblast radius is too damn big
edit: quoting
airblast can be used to airstall people that are out of your flame range which is really broken and gay
airblast can be used to airstall people that are out of your flame range which is really broken and gay