I think that saloon.tf, if it ever happens, has the potential to be huge. bitches love betting and bitches love hats, we can get mad bitches into comp tf2 with that

And a new Tournament league.

If not playing then watching at least

http://teamfortress.tv/thread/14139/esea-and-cevo/

I would bet a good portion of people who signed this "letter to valve" are the retards in this thread.

Everyone in support of CEVO were assuming that it would be like how ETF2L has 2 maps a week. I'm guessing no supporters took into consideration that ETF2L is a free league and you had to pay for two leagues here.

as much fun as i had with tf2 the amount of effort it takes to play at a high level doesnt match up with the "reward" for doing well and unless it does i doubt a lot of people will be able to justify putting in the time to make invite and do well in invite.
im fairly certain Froyo is the only team to make a profit (maybe) in TF2.

Competitive tf2 will never die.. but unfortunately it'll never be a top 3 e-sport in regards to viewers/prize money/revenue.

It doesn't need to be top3, or anywhere near, if the event was sponsored by valve and they would pay for the best teams to show up, it would grow by such a huge amount already.

Even if we dont make it to the mega-grand stage of esports, the fact that, as Lange himself said in the GXL outro video:

And as long as we continue to do it, competitive TF2 will go a loooong way. Im pretty sure 2015 will be a bigger blast, so if anyone thinks they're done with the game, you're going to miss something really good :D
The GXL outro video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3c2b6KRyHE, Lange's part starts at 5:18.

I think comp.tf can help filling the gap between pubbers and competitive players.

When i first got interested in Starcraft : Brood War, I spent a fair amount of time on Liquipedia reading about build orders, past competitions and great stars of the game. It featured lots of related links to interviews, replays, or casts.

I think we can help comp.tf grow and be the gateway newbies need by adding/compiling more and more tactics/strategic/basic stuff about the game. So that everytime someone asks a common question on reddit, we know where to redirect them.

Wait, what happened with Mix^?

I agree, when TF2 /FF released, the official death of 8v8 occured...but in all fairness, the true competitive side of TFC was on the decline starting in 2003. TFC, as a competitive game, stuck around because people loved the competition. Most of us (TDA) and other oldschool players were burnt out on the game since had already been playing it for so long, however there was no true replacement for that style of play. The only redeeming factor is that the TFC community continually formed new teams, with new players. Players that got better, stuck together on the same teams and became contenders. This is what kept leagues alive for almost 9 years.

TF2 doesn't have that, and faces a similar problem with declining competitive interest, with the major problem being no new teams forming...or at least teams forming that could actually make an impact. You get people burnt out from invite consistently not reaching LAN..then joining open. IM teams dying mid way through and only half the rosters going elsewhere, and open rosters just disappearing. In TFC, pubbers truly looked up competitive teams and had aspirations to play in leagues...they made that happen. In TF2, the average pubber just wants to have fun with unlocks, hats, trade servers, and A/D maps. Valve doesn't care about competitive TF2 because 90% of the people that play the game don't care about competitive TF2. I mean, there's "competitive" pub servers all over the place with HLSTATS pages...people truly enjoy that being their "competitive" tf2. That's just the reality. TF2 is their cash cow "F2P" game. The game isn't really taken serious as a competitive shooter, as much as that hurts to hear it's true. It will never be a quake, cs, CoD etc in terms of popularity or money.

In order to draw a crowd, you need the publicity, the draw of big name players and intense/competitive matches. TF2 doesn't have that. With the exception of a the 4 or so invite players that stream, i bet the standard pub player would have no idea who is even in invite. To be perfectly honest, i didn't even bother watching more than 1 or 2 matches this LAN. It's not fun for me to watch whatever team b4nny's on dunk on everyone else with little to no effort. I respect that he has put that much time into being the best player in the game, and gather the best players in their respective classes.....but there is no excitement anymore when you constantly know the end result. From a spectator perspective, i wish their would be some roster shakeups. Hell even if a "super team" formed, i doubt they would be any real challenge because in all honesty 4G in their current incarnation is the true super team. It's impressive from one side, and depressing on another. Now compare CS:Go matches...for example Dreamhack. Every one of the higher seeded matches were insane. Constant back and forth in some...huge comebacks in others. Games like this bring excitement to watch. TF2 needs that desperately.

people see what they want to see. phaser you say that no new challengers have entered, but this is one of the first LANs that mixup didn't make grand finals. i think elevate have had a great season.

Nip won every lan event for a year straight. Heaton made a superteam and we watched them dominate csgo and people still watched.

Superteams are not the issue.

slin, to say the mixup that showed up is the mixup from the past several seasons would be stretching the truth...you and i both know that. I'm not saying elevate didn't have a great season...they had a great season before that as well. But the end result of the LAN was the same. I honestly believe that 4G in it's current form will not be beaten unless they literally stop playing. I'm sorry but the best TF2 team running a spy to mid, and wiping the 2nd best team is not cool to see.

Let me be clear, my post was not to be intended as negative. I love this game as much as anyone, I've been around from the beginning and will stay around as along as i can in one form or another. It's simply a game that will not have a competitive draw. Will competitive TF2 still be around? Absolutely! Me and about 30 other people run an IRC channel for TFC 8v8 pickups...and that game is 15 years old. As long as there is a player base that enjoys playing competitively, it will exist in one form or another.

Now the big question: Will it ever be bigger than it is now?? No. This is where what lange is saying comes into play - when you see a developer put all their investment into building another one of their games competitive side (CS GO), and for years blatantly ignore the requests of thousands of players that have come and gone to build it competitively (TF2), you eventually need to be realistic and accept the facts.

Lange, it's like you just broke up with me by video call.

[insert nerd essay here]

How much did people really watch though? Tournies went from not breaking 100k viewers then to hitting above 300k now

Comparing 4G to NIP is a bit of a stretch. This was a team that dominated dozens of teams all over the world. People watched because they wanted to see someone beat them, or at least challenge them because there were a ton of capable teams. NiP drew crowds for winning whatever tournament they'd attend world wide, and how ever many teams they needed to get through. 4G for the most part has had mixup, elevate, and epsilon. Playing the same 2 teams over and over in ESEA , and epsilon once a year doesn't compare. Even though 4G is what i would consider a TF2 superteam, it's still apples to oranges, the biggest of which there is no real draw to watch competitive TF2.

More than tf2 ever got

You were comparing it to csgo. I'm telling you its a bad comparison

but then keep it to tf2. Superteams have always existed. Pandemic in the early days, coL, etc
They alway exist, they exist in other games and they are not the reason why the game is declining.

super teams are only ever interesting if there's a minimal skill difference between the top team and the next few teams

right now there's a huge powergap between 4g and elevate, to the point where its never really expected that 4g will lose. If 4g could reasonably lose by making mistakes, it'd be different. Super teams in csgo are also less ridic because there's serious reason to try beating them. As it is now, no one is going to scrim 4g or bother to try playing against them because its more fun to compete at mid invite than get rolled by one team.

honestly everyone is getting ahead of themselves. tf2 is not dead yet.
swbf2, a game that started around in november 2005. this game lasted 9 YEARS online with NO UPDATES besides 1.0 to 1.1 version a year or 2 after 1.0 came out. this game died unfortunately this past july, even though it was supposed to die in june, they extended it one more month. those memories i made on that game competitively ill never forget. kicking europe ass on germany servers, and playing on the top clans at a young age is what drives me to get better in tf2.
in the meantime, if you trade anything on outpost, chances are if you link teamfortress.tv and ugcleague.com and play.esea.net the tf2 community will get some new players.

I was pointing out the differences as to why CS GO is exciting to watch at the end of my original post. I brought up the dreamhack matches, no where was in my original post did i try to compare 4G to NiP. You are the one that brought up NIP.

Not denying that, but those teams didn't have the same stranglehold. Upsets could actually happen (season 6 LAN!). There were enough different teams and players at the time, that many people still had a chance to grow and challenge. Watching b4nny vs plat for the past 3 years has lost it's thunder.

I never said that's the sole reason the game is declining. Re-read my first post.

This isn't gonna be a post really reflecting on everything in the thread, but if people actually think esea will drop tf2 even with a lesser amount of players you're kidding youself lol they make great revenue off tf2 despite the lower number of players, they barely even pay attention to tf2 and they make money from it.

this may sound dumb but has anyone tried to talk to valve about implementing MGE or at least a similar 1v1 instarespawn thing into the game?

Can completely understand your feelings Lange, and it's happened and will happen to all of us at some stage in their TF2 career. I knew this about yourself when I met you for the first time @ lan, and then at i52 that's when I saw you were above what TF2 could offer you back. Especially as you are mightily talented.

It's a shame for this community, as you are a huge element of it, people come and go and hopefully others will step up in your shoes and fill that gap. I don't think anyone here think's TF2 is going to be huge or isn't dying. Yes it is dying and yes it's getting worse and worse in terms of skill factor.

But the main thing in all of this is, that it's still going and there are still enough people out there wanting to carry the torch and play this game in it's glory. Human's desires by default will always want the fame, the recognition. While there are people in the pool you'll still have TF2 going.

While I made a decision to leave the scene of TF2 this year, I burnt out ages ago (2012) but still held on for 2/3 years and figured I'd give something back and bring new players in/while managing VTV/events. My main reason was rl, and for others who are in control of the scene it will be similarly the same either rl will take over priorities or you'll burn out.

No TF2 isn't dead, Yes Valve couldn't give a flying fuck about a 7yr old game (in business terms you're all lucky they've spent 7 years on it thus so far), and yes you are losing a valuable member - Lange.

There are lots of things that people in the community are doing to keep it running and hopefully it'll continue to run. With newer services/leagues/PR's doing the work to get thing's running and give a chance to those who still love the game and want to be the 'best'. This community is in charge of it's own destiny in terms of it dying or not. If people keep stepping up it'll keep running.

Cheers

Byte

running it isn't free
the over head isn't exactly massive, but it's still there
if we do drop to a low enough point they will stop providing service, or collapse divisions

I was at a similar place as you, Lange. Truth is: The older contributors, especially the talented ones who are so good that they can make what they do their career, will move on at some point because you don't stay a student with lots of free time forever and need something to make ends meet in eventually. But others will step up. Maybe not right away but eventually.
May you find something that you enjoy, even if it is outside of TF2. If anyone deserves it, it is you. cu@LAN?

(♥ Cherry)

I don't have the capacity at the moment to take my feelings on this, mix them with posts here, and form them into an essay, so I'll stick to specific things in paragraphs:

Many of the big community leaders are older; their burnout/moving on is only inevitable. Some of the people I've seen complaining that losing older community leaders spells the end are older players, roughly the same age as the community figures themselves. I feel as a younger player, we've played to the tune of the older players, so to say. Yes, this is an opportunity for younger players to rise through the ranks, but taking the initiative is difficult, and there are many varying circumstances. If we want to see initiative, let's keep our hopes high, and encourage the younger players in the community to do what they want to do.

There has been some mention of the letter that was sent to Valve. Out of curiosity, it would be nice to see what was mentioned in this letter, however I believe that the letter should have been an open letter to begin with. How is writing a letter that has only been seen by a few eyes a fair way to show you are representing the interests of the community? You don't need to take every single player's input, but to allow us to feel some involvement in this statement can mean a lot.

As for UGC; it didn't take me long to realise that people don't like the place, and after my first season leading a team in Season 12, I can understand some of the reasons as to why. While I believe UGC has done some great things to benefit, and continue to benefit the competitive TF2 scene, there are also many problems with the league in general that are not being properly addressed, and are holding the community back. If we all have such a big problem with UGC, as horrible as it sounds to say it, this could be the waking call for us to create, or find new solutions/alternatives to UGC.

I'd like to see Valve implement a system to get players into competitive, however we can't be fooled into thinking we're off the hook. We still have to maintain our stances in our leagues, train the new players, and keep them coming into the game.

There was a comment in here about Highlander being the only format with life in it. I can't lean to either side of the arguments in that statement. With the disbanding of Mixup, CEVO's cancelation, and Vavle's negative opinion on Sixes, it does make the Sixes scene look barren. If people wants Sixes to continue, we can't be looking at all these losses as meaning the end. There are still places to play, and places that need to be rebuilt to grow, and sustain the current player base in Sixes (Looking at you, UGC). (But if UGC fails to rebuild Sixes, see two paragraphs above.)

Valve has made the implication that they would be more inclined to support Highlander in a matchmaking system. It gives Highlander a boost, and it could give Highlander a chance to stand out for once. But we have to keep in mind all the things that go along with Highlander. The biggest factor being that Highlander involves so many people.

There was the light mention of doing organized Highlander at GXL next year, and I hope that can be pulled off. We're so focussed on Sixes, but many a pub player is more intrigued by Highlander, because it is easier for them to understand, to connect with. To hear about, or watch the footage coming out of such an event would be a great boost. Looking at the posts asking the players to promote the competitive game to new players, this is one thing we can do, yes?

I think I've written enough for now. I'm going to copy this post to UGC as well.

This is the worst thread. You're acting like "TF2 has been dead for x years." It really hasn't been. Has it been exploding with growth? Absolutely not, but the difference is it's had an NA LAN, and it's attracted the same competition season after season. We even had a long conversation about this at i52 on Pirate Radio or whatever they're called these days. Fully Charged? Regardless we talked about how important the ESEA LAN was to fostering competition, and how bleak European TF2 looked because there was no consistent LAN throughout the year. The past ETF2L season was just a mishmosh of players because no one plays during those months. Competitive TF2 will certainly always be there, in the sense that the idea of Dominos will always exist. It's just not regularly played or very popular at all. And that's fine, but the chances of seeing this game stagnate the way it has been over the past few seasons (which is ideal at this point) are slim to none. I just seriously think a lot of you are being overly optimistic. TF2 is a great game, but I don't think scrims and pugs will be as common or fun as the number of players dwindles. I realize you're all just being optimistic, but it's not wrong to be sentimental about something. The game's slipping through our fingers :/

ANYWAY

Thanks for all your help, Lange. You're one of the first people I became friends with in this community and you grew a ridiculous amount from the old Vicious Gaming days. I extend this thanks to everyone else I've played this game with - basically anyone who played invite pugs, all my previous teams, the VG people, and all the br0s. And Mixup. Despite all the trash talk between us over the years and the tension at LAN events, it really was fun playing against you guys. You're all super talented and I'm looking forward to seeing you around a different game (Overwatch? ;) ). And I want to thank tyrone for picking me up, and allowing an immature rager to grow up a little bit and ultimately compete internationally. It's definitely a chance I may not have gotten if I started in a different game.

Feel free to invite me to some invite pugs or whatever some time =)