Isnt the goal to make competitive tf2 as close to pubs as possiblle? How does arena: respawn achieve this?

I hate to be the doubter here, but im pretty sure competitive tf2 starts and ends with Valve. I like arena respawn and the changes it brought in, but its not gonna be relevant until valve gets involved with it.

Edit: here's a video in which I go into detail about my thoughts on extv/pbl's decision not to support 6s:

http://youtu.be/5-1pna1QE0A

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Original reply:

I love that you're trying to grow this community with change and whatnot but (as I've made clear in talking to you) some of your points are just straight up flawed, and I feel like the community needs to hear a less one-sided vlog from the most known competitive TF2 org.

That's because the "meta" they're trying to implement is fucking stupid. Pub tf2 is fun sure, but any competitive format that plays with the "meta" (see: random silliness and stupidity) will be taken seriously by no one, valve included. People will say "wow, the competitive community is finally allowing unlocks and letting me run minisentry engie to mid oh boy!" and then realize how fucking stupid it is after playing with it for a week.

Because that version of tf2 is the one we can play 5 nights a week 3 hours a night without having fucking aneurysms and killing ourselves.

You say right after this "some people don't like playing against gimmicky things". The people that don't like playing against these things are the people that actually play the game. It's pretty ignorant imo to expect people to play against things that make the game not fun just so that a few new people try it out (and eventually decide that it isn't fun too).

Did you hear yourself say that? There is no downside to running GRU on heavy over stock. You run with it during rollout and don't switch when you're at mid and you get to mid with your team for no downsides. Which makes it OP.

This works with mobas because you set up your class structure at the beginning of the game and you don't change it. To do this in tf2 would be to break the so called "meta" valve is striving for. And to enable class/ weapon swaps during the game with an open whitelist (minus a few unlocks) will be broken.

But they haven't. That's like saying just because football goes by the same rules every game that you've seen it all already. Sure you've seen passes, runs, etc but you'll never see the same combination throughout the game. People ignorant to football might say "this is stupid it's the same thing over and over" but those people just don't understand how the game works.

In that it's not a competitive form of tf2 (in it's current and foreseeable state). I've played in them and I think they're fun to play, but only in a casual setting. The moment you present rewards for winning you better believe you'll be seeing terrible, boring, stalemate-y games. The meta will revolve around abusing the broken weapons valve doesn't fix and constantly switching gimmicky weapons. It doesn't take some super theorycrafter to realize this, it's pretty obvious honestly.

This is what I've said about A:R the whole time. In trying to make the competitive game more like "valve's game" or whatever, we've gotten to a point where we're playing a gamemode that doesn't even exist in the game. (????)

Then you go on a tangent about items and whatnot that has nothing to do with A:R that a lot of people (including me) agree with.

Except it's not. With normal pugs, you know from the start what you'll be playing and what your team will need. In A:R pugs (and I've experienced this), you have no clue what will be banned until after you pick your teams and then it's up in the air who's playing what class/loadout when. It can lead to some pretty unfun games.

Okay... why?

WHY WOULD YOU WANT THAT? There are people that have devoted 1000s of hours to this game why the FUCK would you want random shitters to replace them? I'm sure your youtube audience loves to hear that, but like... that just sounds like a really stupid idea. You can do the local thing with good players...

Then do that. There's no reason you have to switch the entire structure of competitive tf2 so you can have your 20-person burnsider lan.

You think that, and the people that you've convinced at PBL think that. The vague "we" seems pretty tough considering you're talking to a huge audience. I know people that do casting things in extv that don't even think that, so the generic "we" is pretty odd.

Why don't you just trust the format that boasts one of the most sustainable competitive game out there? Not many competitive scenes as big as the 6v6 one can say that they're as large as we are today. That's because this game is awesome and unique and constant and loved by thousands of people.

I need to head out right now but I'll respond to the rest of the video when I get back and also share some closing thoughts.

Are there any ideas about GXL in 2015?

Given the amount of UGC players who came out in 2014, if we focused on UGC-oriented events (Organized Highlander and possibly a Sixes tournament), we could still have a successful TF2 portion of the LAN.

Personally, I see potential for growth in Highlander, since that is what appeals to budding competitive players the most, and it is what UGC, probably one of the more active TF2 hubs, care about the most.

kevin you're a beast

I'm pretty sure someone's already said this, but if Valve wants us to not have weapon bans, why do they keep making broken bullshit and completely useless downgrades?

oh yeah i guess i kind of answered it myself, because they don't give -1/2 of a shit about the competitive community or what we have to say, which I guess is justifiable because we aren't the target audience or the moneymaker

this already feels like it's going to be the sal thread all over again, again, again again and again

Because valve doesn't give a shit about competitive and they just say random things because they don't put any effort into tf2 anymore.

http://puu.sh/dS2L3/fb7f4b32ef.png

I dont think you can compare TF2 to football. People who watch esports have wildly different motivations for watching than people who watch football.

People bring up the stale meta of tf2 as a problem because they are looking towards actual successful, modern-day esports. Specifically, league of legends and dota. Even CS has a lot of variation. Valve has recently started adding a bunch of new maps and balance changes, while the CS scene has been mysteriously exploding.

Maybe at some point people will obsess over esports and esports teams the way people care about real life sports, but we are not there yet, and TF2 isnt going to take us there.

Arena:Respawn works perfectly in a pub setting. It scales from 2v2 up to 12v12 no problem. While more chaotic it is the same principles as playing the game in an organized 5v5 setting.

Doubts are welcome and we hope we can dispel them over time.

As I said in the video, the two main things Valve would like to see integrated into our competitive scene are a closeness to their meta/balance/pub-play (however you wanna phrase that) and SOME sort of pick/ban system that creates freshness in each match. I don't think that starts with Valve, I think it starts with us.

Lemme pull out just a couple things from your post. A lot of it is opinion you're welcome to hold.

Valve eXplicitly told me they'd like to see a competitive format more in tune with their meta.

We take 5 people we put them up against 5 people. How is that not a competition? You're welcome to the opinion that 6s is MORE competitve, but A:R is definitely a competitive format.

That's pretty much what I was trying to say with my Vlog and dispel the idea that I'm trying to force everyone to adopt A:R over 6s. I'm hoping we can build up passion for TF2 and establish local groups through A:R, I'm not trying to dictate how you should play the game.

Keep playing players.

We're about to stream some dinosaur action at LAN Vegas, ttyl.

Don't think there is any reason to push a new competitive format without some form of legitimate support. If Valve support this particular format with matchmaking, push it. If they don't then you won't find enough support from either community.

Please avoid the letter x if you 1. Insist on capitalizing it and 2. Are attempting to make any post you ever make be taken seriously.

Majority of people I have talked to about it agree with me in that some weapons in tf2 are entirely not competitive and while they are allowed to be used in A:R that mode is just a kinda fun way to play the game that takes 10x the effort to find players for

the reasoning is that valve has said they want a more inclusive and approachable game mode

AR is both of those

It's overpowered compared to the underpowered existing options (minus FOS I guess). By itself it's fine, Heavies don't make big impacts at mid anyway, any good team can focus fire them down, as has been demonstrated in the recent showmatches. Also isn't Escape Plan the same thing?

Random shitters = new players???

This must mean 6s is an anti-competitive hugbox :)

no one wants to play against heavies
hence his unlocks being blackd

We won't get any form of legitimate support for a new or adjusted competitive format unless we eXperiment with it. That's why I've also supported the eXperimentation with 6s in regards to Open Whitelist.

Robin Walker wants to see some sort of pick/ban system implementated so that every match features unique and fresh strategies. How we implement that is up to us. I believe that the class ban system in A:R is a good way to do that. Maybe 6's with Open Whitelist + item bans is better, still to be determined.

I respect your love for tf2 but I think you're chasing windmills.

the "competitive" tf2 that valve wants is not what most of the people that play 6v6 want to play
if we were to change our format for valve to help us it wouldn't be tf2 anymore
which means there is no point in asking valve for help anyway because they won't give us what we want as a community

most of the unlocks in the game that valve has added in the past few years slow down the game so it's no longer fun / aren't fun to begin with

I know a lot people will be displeased to hear it but this is probably the last good year our tf2 will have more than likely unless valve suddenly realizes that the game they are trying to make is not the game that exists and that there is no reason for us to change because is lose/lose if we do or don't

No one = existing 6s players (a small amount of players) (likely not all of them)

which shuts out the many people who probably want to play heavy and don't mind playing against him

Man, since we like real sports comparisons so much, I'm sure real baseball men don't want to stand in the hot sun for hours, but they do because they have to. No one really cares that you hate Heavy, but being competitive means having to do things you don't always like to.

it's weird valve doesn't like 4v4

isn't that the definition of what valve wants = chaos, lots of offclassing, and all the dumb unlocks?

u do realize the banlist is literally only based on what's fun, not what's OP right?

because that's why soldeir gets basically the same item as heavy and pyro but soldier is the only one who keeps it

and ofc i meant existing 6s players
pub players dont matter if im talking about the 6s whitelist

Yeah

Myself and anyone with a background in competition find it difficult to call that "competitive"

And that just leads to Soldiers having all the fun and Heavies having none

So...what's the difference? It's a bit militant

Plus I thought we're looking to grow 6s? It's unwise to ignore the feedback you've been getting from Valve (possible support) and pubbers (possible converts) for years if you want that. You can hate it but it all comes back to a more inclusive gamemode.

baseball could have a rule that u have to wear shoes made of wood and it would be just as competitive as it is now

banning and shaping the game to create the most interesting and fun experience only alienates people who were interested in different aspects of the game than you were, the fact is that most people would rather have the game be high skill and incredibly DM heavy rather than strategic and class heavy because it ends up being more engaging for most players.

5v5 AR actually addresses a lot of this without making all of the classes redundant, the problem is it doesn't actually fix the problems that most people have with the classes outside of the concrete they tie to the game's pace, mostly by removing the necessity for pacing. 4v4 was on the same track, and I personally think with the right tweaking either format could work fine as a new format if people wanted to take it seriously.

AR is actually awful, and Robin isn't involved in TF2 anymore so I'm not sure where you're getting information from, or where that 4 yr old quote came from.

I've emailed him a bunch of times, he's responded, most of the time with 'im not doing tf2 anymore but ill fwd your stuff to the people who do'

i actually want sources above a pbl skill level that think AR is good, or that TF2 needs a pick/ban system. but since there are no sources or promotion of the gamemode other than yourself, its safe to say this is just a self promotional plug video

If there was ever a new comp format that should be explored, I would have liked to see 5v5 prolander with a blacklist of weapons (those agreed to be dumb or broken, not just the new or unused) and whitelist for all the rest.

- 5 players to expand potential teams, lessen the cost of LAN travels (if ever a thing), and have a familiarity with CS (due to it's popularity)
- Prolander because we all all know only 4 classes are the most versatile, the 6v6 and current class limits create this "stalemate" we hear talk about. In 5v5 that would probably mean 4 cookie cutter, and 1 wild card with the potential for more class switching depending on the situation and necessity to counter the wild card.
- Blacklist because we know certain unlocks are just broken, overpowered, or bad for a comp match.
- Whitelist because we know certain unlocks are underused, kind of interesting, but banned all the same.
- Same gametype and ruleset as 6v6 because it is a fun gametype with lots of meta potential.

One of you must to do this.

awfully strange for a class-based team game where you win via caps not frags

do we really know that "most" people actually prefer this emphasis? it keeps the same players coming back (though not as of late), sure, but i've read plenty of people who would join if only it were for X or Y...

I tried playing PBL with Inland Empire. It was one of the worst league experiences I have had. The people running PBL are great guys, but they are not tf2 players. They chose to start PBL because one of them watched a tf2 match and thought it had good audience value. I think that their goals are good, but they are trying to get a competitive league started and they are not attracting the right players. They need to at least start by having the standard competitive formats to get a player base before introducing new things like A:R.
I personally don't like 4's and I think that A:R isn't a serious enough game mode to be successfully competitive. But that's just my opinion and it may be changed with the right league.

ur actually trying to argue that people who play 6s dont construct the game to be DM emphasized

ru retarded?

who? what league? so you tried to play in a league that people started that know nothing about tf2 that no one has ever heard of?

are you trying to become the new resident shitposter because if so you're doing a fantastic job

Since we like real sports comparisons:

Why does baseball restrict batting inside the foul lines? I'm really good at hitting it just outside of the foul line, so please make your game cater to me. This is what your heavy argument is.

For the same reason they restrict the range in width, we restrict classes or weapon unlocks. It just makes for a better game.

Sounds fun, but has a lot of the same problems as 6s. Different from pub play, restrictive unlocks/classes etc. It wouldn't get support just like 6s wouldn't get support. It doesn't really solve anything, it's "just another game mode".