It shouldn't be completely impossible to mount some sort of defense on second if you wipe on mid but kill their med. As is, if they keep more than 2 players alive after a mid, they're probably gonna cap 2 as well even if you get some spawns. Shortening spawn timers a little bit would definitely help with that.
I'd also like to see the difference in cap time between second and mid be shortened. If you have uber advantage and youre holding your yard it's still a gamble to push without picks because of the threat of a wrap. If you split your team evenly they can just blob up and go away from your uber, mulching whatever you have in the other choke. If you blob up they can just run away from you and even a full team stacking mid won't beat half a team stacking second. Wrap plays should be feasible, but they shouldn't be almost unstoppable.
It shouldn't be completely impossible to mount some sort of defense on second if you wipe on mid but kill their med. As is, if they keep more than 2 players alive after a mid, they're probably gonna cap 2 as well even if you get some spawns. Shortening spawn timers a little bit would definitely help with that.
I'd also like to see the difference in cap time between second and mid be shortened. If you have uber advantage and youre holding your yard it's still a gamble to push without picks because of the threat of a wrap. If you split your team evenly they can just blob up and go away from your uber, mulching whatever you have in the other choke. If you blob up they can just run away from you and even a full team stacking mid won't beat half a team stacking second. Wrap plays should be feasible, but they shouldn't be almost unstoppable.
DaggerAmmopacks added on last point
Oh my god, yes! How many times I've ran out of rockets while defending Granary last and had to go to resupply with my fingers crossed, hoping that the enemy team will not push right now.
[quote=Dagger]Ammopacks added on last point[/quote]
Oh my god, yes! How many times I've ran out of rockets while defending Granary last and had to go to resupply with my fingers crossed, hoping that the enemy team will not push right now.
IsoKanecoWhile I like the idea, a pro version of granary is not very likely to work because it would just further distance the comp community from pubs. Granary is an official map so it needs dev updates, which is bad because it's not perfect like badlands.
There are less custom maps in the rotation this season than in many previous ones. Process, snakewater, and tires on mid would make granary a completely foreign map. Even lobby players figure out viaduct_pro fairly quickly.
And if you care about the distance the comp community has from pubs there are much bigger issues than requiring four 50 mb map downloads instead of 3.
My point is, if the map doesn't work / fell out in popularity or whatever it is, then just let it be, there are plenty upcoming custom maps with real active devs, and those are the ones we should be looking into. While viaduct pro worked it still adds extra confusion and valve will never "recognize" it like they did with process, snakewater or gully because it's based off an official map.
[quote=Iso][quote=Kaneco]While I like the idea, a pro version of granary is not very likely to work because it would just further distance the comp community from pubs. Granary is an official map so it needs dev updates, which is bad because it's not perfect like badlands.[/quote]
There are less custom maps in the rotation this season than in many previous ones. Process, snakewater, and tires on mid would make granary a completely foreign map. Even lobby players figure out viaduct_pro fairly quickly.
And if you care about the distance the comp community has from pubs there are much bigger issues than requiring four 50 mb map downloads instead of 3.[/quote]
My point is, if the map doesn't work / fell out in popularity or whatever it is, then just let it be, there are plenty upcoming custom maps with real active devs, and those are the ones we should be looking into. While viaduct pro worked it still adds extra confusion and valve will never "recognize" it like they did with process, snakewater or gully because it's based off an official map.
I agree with Kaneco, if there are specific things to change that would help the map (I'm thinking ammo on last point, reduced spawn timers by a few seconds etc. rather than big changes to the map like a new choke) then an email to valve would be better than making a _pro version that is unlikely to catch on.
And it is unlikely to catch on, given that viaduct is the only pro version ever to be accepted when there are countless others (a different granary_pro, badlands_pro, gravelpit_pro etc.) They just don't gain enough traction since there's too fine a balance between not changing too much and making it better - you always end up with debate.
I agree with Kaneco, if there are specific things to change that would help the map (I'm thinking ammo on last point, reduced spawn timers by a few seconds etc. rather than big changes to the map like a new choke) then an email to valve would be better than making a _pro version that is unlikely to catch on.
And it is unlikely to catch on, given that viaduct is the only pro version ever to be accepted when there are countless others (a different granary_pro, badlands_pro, gravelpit_pro etc.) They just don't gain enough traction since there's too fine a balance between not changing too much and making it better - you always end up with debate.
To remedy the issue with mid being such a deciding factor of who wins the round, you would need to adjust both the respawn times and capture point times. 2nd point captures twice as fast as middle (at x1 mid takes 24 seconds, second point takes 12 seconds). 12 seconds is the fastest base capture time for any 5cp map played in comp, and the huge difference between mid and second is what makes it very easy to wrap, as well as an easy second capture after winning mid like fragile described. I would like to see the time for mid reduced to a base 22 seconds as well as the time for second increased somewhere between 14-16 seconds. Reducing the respawn times will also go a long way because atm it is incredibly hard to get a solid defense setup or pressure second much with the current respawn times, distance between points and cap times.
To remedy the issue with mid being such a deciding factor of who wins the round, you would need to adjust both the respawn times and capture point times. 2nd point captures twice as fast as middle (at x1 mid takes 24 seconds, second point takes 12 seconds). 12 seconds is the fastest base capture time for any 5cp map played in comp, and the huge difference between mid and second is what makes it very easy to wrap, as well as an easy second capture after winning mid like fragile described. I would like to see the time for mid reduced to a base 22 seconds as well as the time for second increased somewhere between 14-16 seconds. Reducing the respawn times will also go a long way because atm it is incredibly hard to get a solid defense setup or pressure second much with the current respawn times, distance between points and cap times.
Maybe you could try widening the mid point a little?* I don't know if it's the smallest mid or not, but it's definitely clustered together so much so that it might as well be considered the smallest. This way, instead of having a pile of tires, you could possibly have a bundle of planks lying on the ground and one so happens to be leaning up on the bottom crate, allowing people to walk up to it (having it face the silo/barn thing). Speaking of the silos, mirroring the mid so both sides have silos would be nice. I like the idea you have with lowering catwalk, especially so people can walk up the tires onto the bottom crate, then get on top of catwalk, but something about it being that low doesn't feel right, at least for me.
* With widening, I don't necessarily mean the entire mid, since the corners in choke would be unnecessarily big.
The one thing I liked about some other Granary pro map that someone made awhile ago was that they opened up choke more vertically. It was a bit too much, but the idea was good. Literally every exit into either yard from mid is a choke within itself and is a hassle to deal with on offense or defense half the time. The window Valve added in only did so much.
Yard isn't much of an issue for me personally. It's mid and the second point. This entire map, save last, is just choke point after choke point. It really doesn't need to be. I don't really have any idea of how that could be changed, but I'm sure there are good ways to go about it.
Maybe you could try widening the mid point a little?[b]*[/b] I don't know if it's the smallest mid or not, but it's definitely clustered together so much so that it might as well be considered the smallest. This way, instead of having a pile of tires, you could possibly have a bundle of planks lying on the ground and one so happens to be leaning up on the bottom crate, allowing people to walk up to it (having it face the silo/barn thing). Speaking of the silos, mirroring the mid so both sides have silos would be nice. I like the idea you have with lowering catwalk, especially so people can walk up the tires onto the bottom crate, then get on top of catwalk, but something about it being that low doesn't feel right, at least for me.
[b]*[/b] With widening, I don't necessarily mean the entire mid, since the corners in choke would be unnecessarily big.
The one thing I liked about some other Granary pro map that someone made awhile ago was that they opened up choke more vertically. It was a bit too much, but the idea was good. Literally every exit into either yard from mid is a choke within itself and is a hassle to deal with on offense or defense half the time. The window Valve added in only did so much.
Yard isn't much of an issue for me personally. It's mid and the second point. This entire map, save last, is just choke point after choke point. It really doesn't need to be. I don't really have any idea of how that could be changed, but I'm sure there are good ways to go about it.
Usually PRO versions only work when, the map layout is a good design and there is some sort of weather system that doesn't make sense. Granary has neither of these. Never the less, good luck!
Red_Redo badlands too
Badlands pro was already made, all it was was a pro viaduct-esqe paint job and made trash completely pointless. Long story short, it was bad.
Usually PRO versions only work when, the map layout is a good design and there is some sort of weather system that doesn't make sense. Granary has neither of these. Never the less, good luck!
[quote=Red_]Redo badlands too[/quote]
Badlands pro was already made, all it was was a pro viaduct-esqe paint job and made trash completely pointless. Long story short, it was bad.
i might actually like the tires change you considered for mid
i might actually like the tires change you considered for mid
was bedriddin last week and ive been working a fuck ton but i will have a version to download by monday
was bedriddin last week and ive been working a fuck ton but i will have a version to download by monday
Red_Redo badlands too
really the only changes needed is increase cap time on last point and maybe decrease spawn times for player holding last.... and fix spire clipping
I'll bug valve to do it but I don't see them bothering
[quote=Red_]Redo badlands too[/quote]
really the only changes needed is increase cap time on last point and maybe decrease spawn times for player holding last.... and fix spire clipping
I'll bug valve to do it but I don't see them bothering
Leave badlands alone nerds, besides the clippings it's literally perfect.
Leave badlands alone nerds, besides the clippings it's literally perfect.
Pushing from second to mid needs some changes. All the entrances are too small.
Pushing from second to mid needs some changes. All the entrances are too small.
DaggerRed_Redo badlands too
really the only changes needed is increase cap time on last point and maybe decrease spawn times for player holding last.... and fix spire clipping
I'll bug valve to do it but I don't see them bothering
why would u ever mess with badlands when it has already proven itself countless times as the staple of 6v6.
Not to mention the last cap time is basically the main premise of the map which makes it an extremely fast paced and back and forth map
[quote=Dagger][quote=Red_]Redo badlands too[/quote]
really the only changes needed is increase cap time on last point and maybe decrease spawn times for player holding last.... and fix spire clipping
I'll bug valve to do it but I don't see them bothering[/quote]
why would u ever mess with badlands when it has already proven itself countless times as the staple of 6v6.
Not to mention the last cap time is basically the main premise of the map which makes it an extremely fast paced and back and forth map
1. Not many maps have respawns in front of a cap point. I would do some testing on the avg. time it takes to get to the next point on other 5cp maps and apply the same logic here... so move the respawn.
2. Second cp is poorly designed, it needs to be more bigger with some higher ceilings, and possibly some shit for Scouts to jump on like a box. Reduce the width of the walls that's in between the control point since it'll adjust for better sniper sight line and quicker surprise attacks.
3. I think Granary would be the only 5cp map where you can't rocket jump/sticky jump onto the point from the first door. Remove the shit in between the spawn/last. If you make 2nd bigger, it should eat a little of last so it gets a bit smaller (which would be good).
4. The crates really kill it, but it's what makes mid. Instead of 2 crates that stack up to say 50 ft, replace it with 3 slightly staggered ones that stack up to the same 50 ft. Maybe instead of four sets of 3 crates, you could do two sets of 3 crates (50 ft) and two sets of 2 crates (~33 ft). I would slightly increase the height of the garage door so you're not totally shitted on.
1. Not many maps have respawns [i]in front[/i] of a cap point. I would do some testing on the avg. time it takes to get to the next point on other 5cp maps and apply the same logic here... so move the respawn.
2. Second cp is poorly designed, it needs to be more bigger with some higher ceilings, and possibly some shit for Scouts to jump on like a box. Reduce the width of the walls that's in between the control point since it'll adjust for better sniper sight line and quicker surprise attacks.
3. I think Granary would be the only 5cp map where you can't rocket jump/sticky jump onto the point from the first door. Remove the shit in between the spawn/last. If you make 2nd bigger, it should eat a little of last so it gets a bit smaller (which would be good).
4. The crates really kill it, but it's what makes mid. Instead of 2 crates that stack up to say 50 ft, replace it with 3 slightly staggered ones that stack up to the same 50 ft. Maybe instead of four sets of 3 crates, you could do two sets of 3 crates (50 ft) and two sets of 2 crates (~33 ft). I would slightly increase the height of the garage door so you're not totally shitted on.
proA1 is out, please help find bugs and give criticism!
edit: proA2 released with fixes as mentioned by benroads below
proA1 is out, please help find bugs and give criticism!
edit: proA2 released with fixes as mentioned by benroads below
Kanecowhy would u ever mess with badlands when it has already proven itself countless times as the staple of 6v6.
Not to mention the last cap time is basically the main premise of the map which makes it an extremely fast paced and back and forth map
im pretty sure the main premise of the map is spire
and pushing out of last is fucking annoying when its so easy to backcap
idk why they decided to make it cap 2x as fast as any other map
[quote=Kaneco]why would u ever mess with badlands when it has already proven itself countless times as the staple of 6v6.
Not to mention the last cap time is basically the main premise of the map which makes it an extremely fast paced and back and forth map[/quote]
im pretty sure the main premise of the map is spire
and pushing out of last is fucking annoying when its so easy to backcap
idk why they decided to make it cap 2x as fast as any other map
tried to install it and it crahses, telling me engine hunk overflow whenever i try to launch the map
tried to install it and it crahses, telling me engine hunk overflow whenever i try to launch the map
http://puu.sh/h0RvU/b2ad089265.jpg
Not a fan of the medium ammo pack in the normal hold spot, conserving your ammo and not spamming blindly is a pretty big part of granary and having such a large amount of ammo in the typical holding spot would only really encourage stalemates even more so than the last already does, I would suggest you put maybe a small/medium ammo and a health bottle on these planks similar to how Snakewater has it near the tower. If you were to do this I would probably remove the other small pack on the little platform but it could go either way honestly.
http://puu.sh/h0RHE/dd45b75bab.jpg
I have no idea what this little thing is, didn't show up as a clip brush but might just be a displacement bug? Either way I would probably fix it since it's kinda random and annoying.
http://puu.sh/h0RTc/9db5bb4978.jpg
Dislike the idea of this area being far more open, would make it really easy to get in and out of upper and would probably open up some pretty annoying spam angles. Besides that I would recommend clipping those pipes over so you can't get caught on them as well as clipping over/removing the little wood brushes that jet out from the walls. Also building cubemaps would be nice as well.
http://puu.sh/h0SjP/4d57bd48f3.jpg
Please make bulletblock/clip brush ramps for all of the stairs on the map, these and the small steps leading into choke are probably my biggest complaints.
http://puu.sh/h0S1x/592430a950.jpg
I would say put the ammo back where it was before and consider adding a small pack on the left side of the forward spawn area since that area currently has almost no purpose and could be slightly closer than going for either of the mediums (Right yard, near second point) while not being far too easy to get to.
http://puu.sh/h0S8k/997f62c7ed.jpg
I think this area under the vent could be a nice spot for a small ammo pack as I mentioned earlier.
http://puu.sh/h0Ssv/139e0fe524.jpg
Please center props :~)
http://puu.sh/h0SwZ/d6a351c3fc.jpg
Prop clipping in red forward spawn
http://puu.sh/h0SbE/7a2642f963.jpg
The mirrored mid is quite nice but I would probably say remove this barrel or just make a clip brush for it since prop clipping is kinda wonky at times and could be really annoying.
I am pretty interested to see how the slightly larger choke plays out, seems like it's not too large but maybe will be a bit easier to push through and less of a deathtrap for flank classes. Will probably update this post later once I look at it a bit more and maybe get a game or two in on it.
[img]http://puu.sh/h0RvU/b2ad089265.jpg[/img]
Not a fan of the medium ammo pack in the normal hold spot, conserving your ammo and not spamming blindly is a pretty big part of granary and having such a large amount of ammo in the typical holding spot would only really encourage stalemates even more so than the last already does, I would suggest you put maybe a small/medium ammo and a health bottle on these planks similar to how Snakewater has it near the tower. If you were to do this I would probably remove the other small pack on the little platform but it could go either way honestly.
[img]http://puu.sh/h0RHE/dd45b75bab.jpg[/img]
I have no idea what this little thing is, didn't show up as a clip brush but might just be a displacement bug? Either way I would probably fix it since it's kinda random and annoying.
[img]http://puu.sh/h0RTc/9db5bb4978.jpg[/img]
Dislike the idea of this area being far more open, would make it really easy to get in and out of upper and would probably open up some pretty annoying spam angles. Besides that I would recommend clipping those pipes over so you can't get caught on them as well as clipping over/removing the little wood brushes that jet out from the walls. Also building cubemaps would be nice as well.
[img]http://puu.sh/h0SjP/4d57bd48f3.jpg[/img]
Please make bulletblock/clip brush ramps for all of the stairs on the map, these and the small steps leading into choke are probably my biggest complaints.
[img]http://puu.sh/h0S1x/592430a950.jpg[/img]
I would say put the ammo back where it was before and consider adding a small pack on the left side of the forward spawn area since that area currently has almost no purpose and could be slightly closer than going for either of the mediums (Right yard, near second point) while not being far too easy to get to.
[img]http://puu.sh/h0S8k/997f62c7ed.jpg[/img]
I think this area under the vent could be a nice spot for a small ammo pack as I mentioned earlier.
[img]http://puu.sh/h0Ssv/139e0fe524.jpg[/img]
Please center props :~)
[img]http://puu.sh/h0SwZ/d6a351c3fc.jpg[/img]
Prop clipping in red forward spawn
[img]http://puu.sh/h0SbE/7a2642f963.jpg[/img]
The mirrored mid is quite nice but I would probably say remove this barrel or just make a clip brush for it since prop clipping is kinda wonky at times and could be really annoying.
I am pretty interested to see how the slightly larger choke plays out, seems like it's not too large but maybe will be a bit easier to push through and less of a deathtrap for flank classes. Will probably update this post later once I look at it a bit more and maybe get a game or two in on it.
A2 is out, stairs are clipped, fixed some props, fixed ammopack locations, still need to fix these damn black textures though. Also looking for people to playtest this in their pugs if you don't mind.
Benroadshttp://puu.sh/h0RTc/9db5bb4978.jpg
Dislike the idea of this area being far more open, would make it really easy to get in and out of upper and would probably open up some pretty annoying spam angles.
Pretty much it's easier to push into or defend second; there's still the smaller second entrance you have to go through to get into last. No annoying spam angles or sniper sight lines appear.
A2 is out, stairs are clipped, fixed some props, fixed ammopack locations, still need to fix these damn black textures though. Also looking for people to playtest this in their pugs if you don't mind.
[quote=Benroads]
[img]http://puu.sh/h0RTc/9db5bb4978.jpg[/img]
Dislike the idea of this area being far more open, would make it really easy to get in and out of upper and would probably open up some pretty annoying spam angles.[/quote]
Pretty much it's easier to push into or defend second; there's still the smaller second entrance you have to go through to get into last. No annoying spam angles or sniper sight lines appear.
A3 release with a slightly reworked mid and fixed black textures!
http://i.imgur.com/duhqupT.jpg
A3 release with a slightly reworked mid and fixed black textures!
[img]http://i.imgur.com/duhqupT.jpg[/img]
Actually looks somewhat reasonable
Actually looks somewhat reasonable
It'd be an adjustment, but it honestly looks really nice
It'd be an adjustment, but it honestly looks really nice
DaggerA3 release with a slightly reworked mid and fixed black textures!
http://i.imgur.com/duhqupT.jpg
sick man, let's get some pugs going on it
[quote=Dagger]A3 release with a slightly reworked mid and fixed black textures!
[img]http://i.imgur.com/duhqupT.jpg[/img][/quote]
sick man, let's get some pugs going on it
Played a pug on A3. The mid felt a lot more open at more than just ground level. It really let more of the action flow over the top of the crates than in regular granary.
I really liked it, keep up the good work!
Played a pug on A3. The mid felt a lot more open at more than just ground level. It really let more of the action flow over the top of the crates than in regular granary.
I really liked it, keep up the good work!
i dont know how you guys feel about yard, but personally i hate how divided it is. since you made fairly big changes to mid, maybe this idea would be sort of doable?
convert the drop down tunnel into a low pipe similar to the one on last. have an open doorway where the pipe connects to the building and have it incline up towards mid. remove the top crate thats in the middle of yard and all together might make for a better flowing fighting space?
might also be gay as fuck to push out of 2 against.. idk just rambling an idea i guess
http://i.imgur.com/l7yJknk.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YIJqQqx.jpg
changes to mid look pretty fun btw
i dont know how you guys feel about yard, but personally i hate how divided it is. since you made fairly big changes to mid, maybe this idea would be sort of doable?
convert the drop down tunnel into a low pipe similar to the one on last. have an open doorway where the pipe connects to the building and have it incline up towards mid. remove the top crate thats in the middle of yard and all together might make for a better flowing fighting space?
might also be gay as fuck to push out of 2 against.. idk just rambling an idea i guess
http://i.imgur.com/l7yJknk.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YIJqQqx.jpg
changes to mid look pretty fun btw
anything that causes some sorta cheese (dropdown) is frowned upon imo im glad they removed it in snakewater
anything that causes some sorta cheese (dropdown) is frowned upon imo im glad they removed it in snakewater
yard being divided in half is one of the few reasons it works
yard being divided in half is one of the few reasons it works
extracrispyi dont know how you guys feel about yard, but personally i hate how divided it is. since you made fairly big changes to mid, maybe this idea would be sort of doable?
if you were to take out the dividing crates in yard you would realize how fucking massive and flankless the entire area is.
yard being divided creates a cool pseudo-flank that not only gives an area to push but leads to other, more sneaky flank routes.
without the crates it would be too easy for the defending team to constantly buff whoever is watching right yard, and therefore way too hard for the attacking team to get picks there. this leaves the attacking flank without anything to really do except double up on other people's spam.
thats just how i see it though
[quote=extracrispy]i dont know how you guys feel about yard, but personally i hate how divided it is. since you made fairly big changes to mid, maybe this idea would be sort of doable?[/quote]
if you were to take out the dividing crates in yard you would realize how fucking massive and flankless the entire area is.
yard being divided creates a cool pseudo-flank that not only gives an area to push but leads to other, more sneaky flank routes.
without the crates it would be too easy for the defending team to constantly buff whoever is watching right yard, and therefore way too hard for the attacking team to get picks there. this leaves the attacking flank without anything to really do except double up on other people's spam.
thats just how i see it though