sure, blaze pugs were doing the same thing,we just need as much testing as possible to make the map better, and i believe thats the issue. tf2 plays best when everyone knows what theyre doing, it doesn't fit new maps. thats mostly the issue.

okay if you voted for sandstone please revert your vote

ok, for feedback purposes, why does everyone hate sandstone so much?

I think mangachu said it best

"There are so many problems I don't even know where to start"

only spot that has high ground advantage to the point is that small ledge on either side where you cant dodge splash against the back wall and cliff. and im thinking cliff is small enough to where any team trying to stack 2 or 3 people up there will get fucked on by the demo/soldiers.

warmfront would need small tweaks to be a solid koth map, coal needs a complete overhaul

logjam was actually really fun. The ramps and the roofs that you can surf off are really cool. I'm biased though because I play roamer.

sorry for the lack of quality feedback, but heres rowrow's response if you havent seen it

Sandstone sucked, it felt like sniper bait the whole time, but it was only 3 rounds. Flanking was a bit too easy for both teams, having the extra paths to point makes for sneak pushes. It's all too low-ceiling and sightlines look too good for sniper, and every time they got a heavy near the point it was hard to push into it, especially the house having a window and a lower door that's a cesspool of spam, maybe make the window the entrance and wall off the lower part of house, add a ramp or something, but it still wouldn't be much better because the size of the map is way too small and close, with long flank routes that go unchecked.

gl on getting this map into rotation, koth is my fav

Holy crap I have been out of the loop.

I haven't touched Logjam in a few months. I agree, it's still not ready. It still needs re-working. I've had ideas for a while now... but I am a full time engineering student working a 30 hr/week job too- I haven't had time to touch it. Maybe next season- but I wouldn't vote for it now. ETF2L didn't like it too much this time around either, so perhaps it's just shit anyways. I will be changing some things within a few weeks, though.

It really feels like we should ask for some type of re-vote to get Coalplant into a secondary poll, I'm pretty sure we changed the vote-in poll before and restart it so it's possible to do again.

a coalplant vote only matters if people are voting for granary because they hate the other 3 maps

(do a 1:1 vote or just remove granary FUCK popular opinion)

I'd really like to see granary_pro being discussed. From what we played yesterday it seems like that and coalplant are the only solid choices atm and neither of them are in the vote.

The way things are going I should be able to release a final pro version of granary by the end of the week

I feel like granary pro should replace granary no matter if it gets voted out or not

yes

This is exactly why the mapping community rarely wants to develop for competitive.

Devs are trying to reach out and make a map for you, and all people here seem to want to do is tell them their map sucks, without even giving any feedback on what to improve. It's embarrassing frankly.

i feel like the only way to get quality feedback is to have higher level teams do a quick map review with the other team to distinguish chokes and flanks. Tf2 works best when everyone knows what theyre doing. Just as to have everyone on the same page. And them to scrim it and give feedback. Its probably implausible. But hopefully that will get some better feedback for our 3D space creaters

I spoke to Phi about this pretty recently, obviously for later testing and refinement you want higher level teams, but the majority of testing for a map open teams can quite easily spot what is and isn't working. I tested one of her new maps pretty recently, and despite only being in open in etf2l were able to flag a lot of things we did and didn't like.

You need to remember that most mappers don't play 6's, and so will often miss things that might be obvious to people who do. Even when they have a good idea of the meta, how something is supposed to play, and how something ends up actually playing is rather different most of the time. Even if you don't think you can give useful feedback, being able to hand over an STV demo for the map maker to look at is pretty useful.

It's fucking annoying how granary has like 60% of the votes to be played. They vote it off, and then what? They decide to vote it back on again. Like we know that it's gonna be no fucking fun and nobody except the soldiers enjoy playing it. Kounter makes a good point, granary_pro is literally miles ahead of valve's granary and if they wanna play gran we should do granary_pro. But all the other maps are pretty good (from blazepugs pretesting standpoint) with exception to glassworks. Vote for a new map, especially sandstone. That way you might have fun, as opposed to being guaranteed 5 days of scrimming a shitty map

Going to sound like a pretty shitty idea, but instead of new map pugs we could hold new map scrims on (ex. Every saturday) this way you could have more organized testing. And give teams opprutunities to learn these maps before hand and play them. During overhearing and watching people play sandstone yesterday. Higher level players seem to take it less seriously then lower levels which was kind of embarrasing. With these more organized map testing hopefully you can get more concise feedback and just tell them to post everything to your forum, so that way if it mattered they would post it and not just say, it sucked xd. Thoughts?

EDIT: of course with a couple of rules like no excessive offclassing etc.

Yeah we did a bit too much offclassing in that pug

Is this true? Please let this be true.

If you guys really want edifice RC1 that badly I can put it out sometime. The map's really just sitting around waiting to be a finished portfolio piece for me and I can publicly release RC1 if that interests anyone.

PLEASE RELEASE EDIFICE

edifice was/is amazing i would love to play it next season

Edifice would be a solid choice to replace an otherwise pretty plain map.

anything is better than granary

cp_ashville for S20

So what's the final say on this?

According to Shooter, Granary is staying in.

Can we assume each map got 20% of the votes except for Granary which got 40%?
Amount of people satisfied with Granary staying may be lower than if any of the maps won, which is why it's better to ask "which maps are you ok playing on" and allowing multiple choice.