getting launched to the moon by that thing is ridiculous. you pretty much dont need a pyro anymore, just run the donk. people need to include that as an attribute when discussing the balance (and ban worthiness of an item).
getting randomly 1 shot from 140 hp as scout (or soldier if hurt) when you run around a corner is stupid.
collision box or w/e it's called is the size of texas.
in many situations is actually better than pipes in 1v1 as you dont need to actually hit the person, just prime the donk the appropriate amount of time. hit them? awesome, double donk. miss? awesome, splash dmg.
maps weren't designed with this primary in mind, and it makes it kind of ridiculous because of how well spam firing it is (blands last from spawn door to top left/right, gully mid to big door, pretty much anywhere that isn't house on viaduct, etc. etc.)
i agree with the point of trying to keep more unlocks unbanned with MM coming out, but valve needs to do more tweaking to shit.
i mean it's kind of better than pipes in every way imaginable except for counting when you direct someone but don't donk them and that's ONLY from a damage standpoint as the knockback on donks is way better so it gets the demo safe faster and is better than pipes in that regard.
getting launched to the moon by that thing is ridiculous. you pretty much dont need a pyro anymore, just run the donk. people need to include that as an attribute when discussing the balance (and ban worthiness of an item).
getting randomly 1 shot from 140 hp as scout (or soldier if hurt) when you run around a corner is stupid.
collision box or w/e it's called is the size of texas.
in many situations is actually better than pipes in 1v1 as you dont need to actually hit the person, just prime the donk the appropriate amount of time. hit them? awesome, double donk. miss? awesome, splash dmg.
maps weren't designed with this primary in mind, and it makes it kind of ridiculous because of how well spam firing it is (blands last from spawn door to top left/right, gully mid to big door, pretty much anywhere that isn't house on viaduct, etc. etc.)
i agree with the point of trying to keep more unlocks unbanned with MM coming out, but valve needs to do more tweaking to shit.
i mean it's kind of better than pipes in every way imaginable except for counting when you direct someone but don't donk them and that's ONLY from a damage standpoint as the knockback on donks is way better so it gets the demo safe faster and is better than pipes in that regard.
Bloodsire is litterally just making long posts that are 1000% accurate and no one listens
Bloodsire is litterally just making long posts that are 1000% accurate and no one listens
Stopping the banning of weapons just because MM got officially confirmed isn't a good idea imo. We have played with the Loose Cannon for a while and understand its mechanics, and it is fine for us to have a discussion about whether it has a place in competitive play. We cannot ignore a weapon that is unbalanced and play with it just because we know that Valve's gamemode will have that weapon allowed (regardless of whether you think the Loose Cannon is unbalanced). The argument is fundamentally flawed in that if you just want to appease Valve then why not unban everything. It doesn't make sense to me.
If you want to argue for/against the banning of weapons then that is fine, but this thread is about one specific weapon and whether it should be allowed, not whether we should start to adapt our competitive game to be in line with Valve's new gamemode.
Stopping the banning of weapons just because MM got officially confirmed isn't a good idea imo. We have played with the Loose Cannon for a while and understand its mechanics, and it is fine for us to have a discussion about whether it has a place in competitive play. We cannot ignore a weapon that is unbalanced and play with it just because we know that Valve's gamemode will have that weapon allowed (regardless of whether you think the Loose Cannon is unbalanced). The argument is fundamentally flawed in that if you just want to appease Valve then why not unban everything. It doesn't make sense to me.
If you want to argue for/against the banning of weapons then that is fine, but this thread is about one specific weapon and whether it should be allowed, not whether we should start to adapt our competitive game to be in line with Valve's new gamemode.
BLoodSireNot only does that starve the weapon of the competitive context needed to see a meaningful fix, it sends the weapon to the grave yard as those that are eventually fixed in some way, almost never (is there even 1 example?) make it back into the whitelist.
Oh yeah, regarding this point: I know the Liberty Launcher got unbanned after being fixed. However, I think that's the only one.
[quote=BLoodSire]Not only does that starve the weapon of the competitive context needed to see a meaningful fix, it sends the weapon to the grave yard as those that are eventually fixed in some way, almost never (is there even 1 example?) make it back into the whitelist. [/quote]
Oh yeah, regarding this point: I know the Liberty Launcher got unbanned after being fixed. However, I think that's the only one.
I think it should be banned just like the loch and load was at first, it gives enough damage to 1 shot lower health classes. Yesterday my team in a pug was going to push process last on even ubers i walked into rollout spamed 2 cannons at the med, one double donked and the other one killed him because of the shorted self det time. Another thing is the knock back, on some map like gullywash and badlands sometimes snakewater even you can just use it and it can deny an uber almost like having a pyro im sure you guys have seen it in some kaidus frag videos.
I think it should be banned just like the loch and load was at first, it gives enough damage to 1 shot lower health classes. Yesterday my team in a pug was going to push process last on even ubers i walked into rollout spamed 2 cannons at the med, one double donked and the other one killed him because of the shorted self det time. Another thing is the knock back, on some map like gullywash and badlands sometimes snakewater even you can just use it and it can deny an uber almost like having a pyro im sure you guys have seen it in some kaidus frag videos.
Imagine if liberty launcher had a chance to donk. I don't think there'd even be a discussion about it.
Imagine if liberty launcher had a chance to donk. I don't think there'd even be a discussion about it.
bl4nkImagine if liberty launcher had a chance to donk. I don't think there'd even be a discussion about it.
That literally makes no sense. How would that even work?
[quote=bl4nk]Imagine if liberty launcher had a chance to donk. I don't think there'd even be a discussion about it.[/quote]
That literally makes no sense. How would that even work?
the loose cannon is one of those weapons that can completely change the tide of a push or even an uber exchange by blasting people away. It definitely needs some sort of nerf, but I would be sad to see it get banned from competitive play. I love what it brings to the game both physically and mentally. A skilled demo can completely shut down chokes and hold sticky traps with the donk spam, but it takes a skilled demoman to be able to use the cannonballs to power through the other team. If a team facing the cannonballs works together, it's not too hard to pick off the demo. When you think about it, pipes that can deal ridiculous 100 damage spam from a fairly large distance is just as over powered as the cannonballs, but the loose cannon just takes more skill.
the loose cannon is one of those weapons that can completely change the tide of a push or even an uber exchange by blasting people away. It definitely needs some sort of nerf, but I would be sad to see it get banned from competitive play. I love what it brings to the game both physically and mentally. A skilled demo can completely shut down chokes and hold sticky traps with the donk spam, but it takes a skilled demoman to be able to use the cannonballs to power through the other team. If a team facing the cannonballs works together, it's not too hard to pick off the demo. When you think about it, pipes that can deal ridiculous 100 damage spam from a fairly large distance is just as over powered as the cannonballs, but the loose cannon just takes more skill.
Would be an improvement if the projectile size and speed was lowered to the same as pipes.
Some small nerf is best for this weapon, but moving backwards on the whitelist is a bad move. It's not a large adaptation to have this weapon in the game, and you've gotta be prepared for some HUGE adaptations. This is peanuts compared to MM.
Would be an improvement if the projectile size and speed was lowered to the same as pipes.
Some small nerf is best for this weapon, but moving backwards on the whitelist is a bad move. It's not a large adaptation to have this weapon in the game, and you've gotta be prepared for some HUGE adaptations. This is peanuts compared to MM.
Pendathe loose cannon is one of those weapons that can completely change the tide of a push or even an uber exchange by blasting people away. It definitely needs some sort of nerf, but I would be sad to see it get banned from competitive play. I love what it brings to the game both physically and mentally. A skilled demo can completely shut down chokes and hold sticky traps with the donk spam, but it takes a skilled demoman to be able to use the cannonballs to power through the other team. If a team facing the cannonballs works together, it's not too hard to pick off the demo. When you think about it, pipes that can deal ridiculous 100 damage spam from a fairly large distance is just as over powered as the cannonballs, but the loose cannon just takes more skill.
lol
[quote=Penda]the loose cannon is one of those weapons that can completely change the tide of a push or even an uber exchange by blasting people away. It definitely needs some sort of nerf, but I would be sad to see it get banned from competitive play. I love what it brings to the game both physically and mentally. A skilled demo can completely shut down chokes and hold sticky traps with the donk spam, but it takes a skilled demoman to be able to use the cannonballs to power through the other team. If a team facing the cannonballs works together, it's not too hard to pick off the demo. When you think about it, pipes that can deal ridiculous 100 damage spam from a fairly large distance is just as over powered as the cannonballs, but the [b][size=14]loose cannon just takes more skill[/size][/b].[/quote]
lol
I personally haven't ever felt like "oh my god what a stupid weapon". However, if I was to play against Bdonski at LAN, my opinion might change. Kaidus used it to great effect on viaduct in my ETF2L game against [R]eason, but I honestly think that was just a map thing, rather than his clever unlock usage.
I love the weapon, but strongly agree about that fucking unsurfable any direction knock-back thing being a massive negative.
Having used it pretty much half and half with Grenade Launcher for Season 21 in ETF2L, I'm still undecided on it's position in competitive.
I personally haven't ever felt like "oh my god what a stupid weapon". However, if I was to play against Bdonski at LAN, my opinion might change. Kaidus used it to great effect on viaduct in my ETF2L game against [R]eason, but I honestly think that was just a map thing, rather than his clever unlock usage.
I love the weapon, but strongly agree about that fucking unsurfable any direction knock-back thing being a massive negative.
Having used it pretty much half and half with Grenade Launcher for Season 21 in ETF2L, I'm still undecided on it's position in competitive.
BLoodSireI think you are missing the bigger picture here. When VALVE releases MM it will eventually be a success or failure (in terms of revitalizing the game). The comp community wants it to be a success so that heaps of people will care about a structured form of TF2, thereby bringing support to our game in a similar (albeit diminished) way CS and DOTA have support. If at such a time, the comp communities dreams come true and MM is a success, the success will be in the MM version of structured TF2. Not our current 6v6 meta. The 2 can probably (and ideally) work to meet somewhere in the middle, but if this community decides "Valves Game" is too foreign from "our" current meta to be taken seriously, this community will be left by the wayside. Players will quit. 90% of the scene could quit and refuse to play, and it wouldn't matter. If we are pulling for MM, and MM succeeds, then MM is the new meta, the new 6v6, the new comp.
I don't think people realize the cake they're trying to hold on to is the cake they're also trying to eat.
This community has been "left by the wayside" for years now. And that's fine. We will play Valve's 6v6 no matter what unlocks are allowed, but until it's at least vaguely balanced our community won't abandon what is already here. In the mean time we shouldn't try to conform to a ruleset that hasn't even come out yet.
[quote=BLoodSire]
I think you are missing the bigger picture here. When VALVE releases MM it will eventually be a success or failure (in terms of revitalizing the game). The comp community wants it to be a success so that heaps of people will care about a structured form of TF2, thereby bringing support to our game in a similar (albeit diminished) way CS and DOTA have support. If at such a time, the comp communities dreams come true and MM is a success, the success will be in the MM version of structured TF2. Not our current 6v6 meta. The 2 can probably (and ideally) work to meet somewhere in the middle, but if this community decides "Valves Game" is too foreign from "our" current meta to be taken seriously, this community will be left by the wayside. Players will quit. 90% of the scene could quit and refuse to play, and it wouldn't matter. If we are pulling for MM, and MM succeeds, then MM is the new meta, the new 6v6, the new comp.
I don't think people realize the cake they're trying to hold on to is the cake they're also trying to eat.[/quote]
This community has been "left by the wayside" for years now. And that's fine. We will play Valve's 6v6 no matter what unlocks are allowed, but until it's at least vaguely balanced our community won't abandon what is already here. In the mean time we shouldn't try to conform to a ruleset that hasn't even come out yet.
I'm fine with it, as I see it as a trade of 0 short-range killing capability for increased mid-range capability (and slightly reduced long-range capability b/c earlier explode times).
I'm fine with it, as I see it as a trade of 0 short-range killing capability for increased mid-range capability (and slightly reduced long-range capability b/c earlier explode times).
bl4nkImagine if liberty launcher had a chance to donk. I don't think there'd even be a discussion about it.
it would do 60 damage on a point blank direct instead of 40?
[quote=bl4nk]Imagine if liberty launcher had a chance to donk. I don't think there'd even be a discussion about it.[/quote]
it would do 60 damage on a point blank direct instead of 40?
DontI'm fine with it, as I see it as a trade of 0 short-range killing capability for increased mid-range capability (and slightly reduced long-range capability b/c earlier explode times).
You don't need to kill somebody close range when you can hit them with one cannonball and they are suddenly 10 ft away from you
[quote=Dont]I'm fine with it, as I see it as a trade of 0 short-range killing capability for increased mid-range capability (and slightly reduced long-range capability b/c earlier explode times).[/quote]
You don't need to kill somebody close range when you can hit them with one cannonball and they are suddenly 10 ft away from you
It makes me very sad when people DM with the loose cannon and the targe
Honestly I think that its not the damage but the movement that really bothers me
Get rid of the rediculous knockback, change the projectile speed and radius, and boom you have a weapon that isn't obnoxious to play against, although I'm sure the double donks could still be argued about
It makes me very sad when people DM with the loose cannon and the targe
Honestly I think that its not the damage but the movement that really bothers me
Get rid of the rediculous knockback, change the projectile speed and radius, and boom you have a weapon that isn't obnoxious to play against, although I'm sure the double donks could still be argued about
BLoodSire"Doesn't deserve a spot in comp play," is a throw away phrase. We need to think long and carefully about what gets banned because of imbalance as opposed to what gets banned because of annoyance. For years "annoyance" has been winning as far as the ban list is concerned. It's what originally kept the boston bashed banned. It's why people always fall back on "ban heavy" cries. With MM on the way, the community should be looking less to ban current legal items unless they are causing a significant change to the 6v6 meta. Let's be real, the loose cannon is not. If a team's demo can use it to deny an uber, great job for him, that works into the meta. It doesn't cut it.
I guess "doesn't deserve a place in comp" is a bad way to say it. They way it currently works doesn't deserve a place in comp. I have next to no issue with knockback, what I do take issue with is walking through a choke and getting double donked randomly and dropping because of it. This type of play doesn't reward skill, it just rewards spamming cannonballs while hoping you hit someone at the right distance.
At least randomly hitting a pipe doesn't do 140+ damage in addition to sending them flying with the mini-crit. If the double donk was removed and the only advantage was the knockback, I would be completely ok with it.
Hell, raise the damage up to normal pipe levels, that wouldn't bother me either, but the randomness of the double donk is just silly.
[quote=BLoodSire]"Doesn't deserve a spot in comp play," is a throw away phrase. We need to think long and carefully about what gets banned because of imbalance as opposed to what gets banned because of annoyance. For years "annoyance" has been winning as far as the ban list is concerned. It's what originally kept the boston bashed banned. It's why people always fall back on "ban heavy" cries. With MM on the way, the community should be looking less to ban current legal items unless they are causing a significant change to the 6v6 meta. Let's be real, the loose cannon is not. If a team's demo can use it to deny an uber, great job for him, that works into the meta. It doesn't cut it.[/quote]
I guess "doesn't deserve a place in comp" is a bad way to say it. They way it currently works doesn't deserve a place in comp. I have next to no issue with knockback, what I do take issue with is walking through a choke and getting double donked randomly and dropping because of it. This type of play doesn't reward skill, it just rewards spamming cannonballs while hoping you hit someone at the right distance.
At least randomly hitting a pipe doesn't do 140+ damage in addition to sending them flying with the mini-crit. If the double donk was removed and the only advantage was the knockback, I would be completely ok with it.
Hell, raise the damage up to normal pipe levels, that wouldn't bother me either, but the randomness of the double donk is just silly.
you miss shots and you can still do damage, absolutely stupid
you miss shots and you can still do damage, absolutely stupid
For the record I don't like the donk.
The *main* complaint I have with it is that its hitbox feels gigantic.
The jag was also banned once, and now it's back also. It can happen :D
For the record I don't like the donk.
The *main* complaint I have with it is that its hitbox feels gigantic.
The jag was also banned once, and now it's back also. It can happen :D
Davidchoiyou miss shots and you can still do damage, absolutely stupid
yeah dude remove the rocket launcher while we're at it
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fuck off retard
[quote=Davidchoi]you miss shots and you can still do damage, absolutely stupid[/quote]
yeah dude remove the rocket launcher while we're at it
[spoiler]fuck off retard[/spoiler]
It's fucking AIDS. If I have uber, hearing that weapon scares the shit out of me since I know I can drop to it completely blindly if I've taken any kind of spam damage.
It would be balanced IF:
- Double donks did less damage
- There was some kind of visual indicator that shows how close how it is to exploding (cannonball changing colour etc.)
- Hit radius was reduced since it's big enough to be considered a small planet right now
It's fucking AIDS. If I have uber, hearing that weapon scares the shit out of me since I know I can drop to it completely blindly if I've taken any kind of spam damage.
It would be balanced IF:
- Double donks did less damage
- There was some kind of visual indicator that shows how close how it is to exploding (cannonball changing colour etc.)
- Hit radius was reduced since it's big enough to be considered a small planet right now
xattuui think the issues is the explosion radius. its very hard to tell when and where the projectile is going to explode, making it hard to avoid. it doesnt do much damage (around 60ish when spamming) as a pocket counter spamming its nothing but as medic they can roll past your pocket or even bounce off him and two not even direct cannons will bring you down to sub 50 hp. also when a demo is good using it on the opposing team, you might not even consider going to mid on gully. and dont even talk about via.. oml
Honestly whenever I play demo on gully I go choke rollout and spam all 4, I have dropped meds, demos going big door, etc. Completely changes the rollout of the other team. Maybe an even bigger hit to range or something to combat this? Or damage, 121 is still a lot, and leaves the lighter classes alive if they have full health without a buff. Just my 2 cents.
[quote=xattuu]i think the issues is the explosion radius. its very hard to tell when and where the projectile is going to explode, making it hard to avoid. it doesnt do much damage (around 60ish when spamming) as a pocket counter spamming its nothing but as medic they can roll past your pocket or even bounce off him and two not even direct cannons will bring you down to sub 50 hp. also when a demo is good using it on the opposing team, you might not even consider going to mid on gully. and dont even talk about via.. oml[/quote]
Honestly whenever I play demo on gully I go choke rollout and spam all 4, I have dropped meds, demos going big door, etc. Completely changes the rollout of the other team. Maybe an even bigger hit to range or something to combat this? Or damage, 121 is still a lot, and leaves the lighter classes alive if they have full health without a buff. Just my 2 cents.
"it's not fun to play against" (read : harder as it actually requires adaptation, like countless unlocks before eg gunboats) so better ban it, yeah, right.
When you play fucking clan arena do you complain about retards spamming 25 nades in chokes? Do you ask id software to nerf grenades? No, because you know you can work around it. It's the same in tf2.
Yes it buys time in chokes. It's the purpose of the weapon! Take into account where the demo is before pushing (LIKE YOU WOULD DO WHEN CHECKING FOR STICKY TRAPS) instead of saying "when you push on advantage you have to take the fastest route" and you'll be fine. Do you complain about dieing to stickies when +forwarding a demo in an alley? No, because it's a bad play.
Hell 3 years ago some people were complaining about buffed gunboats roamers being unkillable..
Work around it, enjoy learning new skills in the process about how to deal with the weapon, and let demos have fun with it too.
"it's not fun to play against" (read : harder as it actually requires adaptation, like countless unlocks before eg gunboats) so better ban it, yeah, right.
When you play fucking clan arena do you complain about retards spamming 25 nades in chokes? Do you ask id software to nerf grenades? No, because you know you can work around it. It's the same in tf2.
Yes it buys time in chokes. It's the purpose of the weapon! Take into account where the demo is before pushing (LIKE YOU WOULD DO WHEN CHECKING FOR STICKY TRAPS) instead of saying "when you push on advantage you have to take the fastest route" and you'll be fine. Do you complain about dieing to stickies when +forwarding a demo in an alley? No, because it's a bad play.
Hell 3 years ago some people were complaining about buffed gunboats roamers being unkillable..
Work around it, enjoy learning new skills in the process about how to deal with the weapon, and let demos have fun with it too.
if you guys hadn't played this game for years and it just came out, would you still think the same way? or would you complain that you can get knocked around by rockets, pipes, etc.?
if you guys hadn't played this game for years and it just came out, would you still think the same way? or would you complain that you can get knocked around by rockets, pipes, etc.?
I just think the projectiles need to move a little slower and the knock back needs to be reduced significantly. I don't have a particular problem with the damage, although it sucks to get donked as med when you're 130 hp and normally wouldn't even think of popping.
It just shouldn't be able to deny ubers as well as it does, and it shouldn't be so damn difficult to dodge with how fast the projectiles move.
Barring a nerf I'd rather see it allowed than banned though. It's not super fun to play against but it's nowhere near as bad as the truly game breaking stuff like quick fix and gunslinger/wrangler.
I just think the projectiles need to move a little slower and the knock back needs to be reduced significantly. I don't have a particular problem with the damage, although it sucks to get donked as med when you're 130 hp and normally wouldn't even think of popping.
It just shouldn't be able to deny ubers as well as it does, and it shouldn't be so damn difficult to dodge with how fast the projectiles move.
Barring a nerf I'd rather see it allowed than banned though. It's not super fun to play against but it's nowhere near as bad as the truly game breaking stuff like quick fix and gunslinger/wrangler.
kosIt's fucking AIDS. If I have uber, hearing that weapon scares the shit out of me since I know I can drop to it completely blindly if I've taken any kind of spam damage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxxuV66XV7I
smh kos
[quote=kos]It's fucking AIDS. If I have uber, hearing that weapon scares the shit out of me since I know I can drop to it completely blindly if I've taken any kind of spam damage.
[/quote]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxxuV66XV7I
smh kos
You can list all the reasons that you're all for it and all against it, but nobody wants to fucking deal with possibly being double donked. That shit's incredibly annoying.
You can list all the reasons that you're all for it and all against it, but nobody wants to fucking deal with possibly being double donked. That shit's incredibly annoying.
BLoodSire If at such a time, the comp community's dreams come true and MM is a success, the success will be in the MM version of structured TF2. Not our current 6v6 meta... If we are pulling for MM, and MM succeeds, then MM is the new meta, the new 6v6, the new comp.
I don't think people realize the cake they're trying to hold on to is the cake they're also trying to eat.
Even csgo MM varies from comp csgo re the bomb and round timers, MM won't replace comp, it's just a more accessible introduction to it.
[quote=BLoodSire] If at such a time, the comp community's dreams come true and MM is a success, the success will be in the MM version of structured TF2. Not our current 6v6 meta... If we are pulling for MM, and MM succeeds, then MM is the new meta, the new 6v6, the new comp.
I don't think people realize the cake they're trying to hold on to is the cake they're also trying to eat.[/quote]
Even csgo MM varies from comp csgo re the bomb and round timers, MM won't replace comp, it's just a more accessible introduction to it.
Platinumif you guys hadn't played this game for years and it just came out, would you still think the same way? or would you complain that you can get knocked around by rockets, pipes, etc.?
the amount you get knocked around by rockets is wayyyy less
[quote=Platinum]if you guys hadn't played this game for years and it just came out, would you still think the same way? or would you complain that you can get knocked around by rockets, pipes, etc.?[/quote]
the amount you get knocked around by rockets is wayyyy less