The problem is, TF2 is a really old game now. It would be really stupid for Valve to throw money at an old game to save a handful of competitive TF2 players. You have to remember that Valve is a business and while the whole TF2 competitive community wants these big prize pools, weekly leagues and tournaments, we simply do not have the player-base in the competitive community to warrant it.

Everyone knows about TF2. It's a free game and so a tonne of people have played the game and enjoyed it. It's not like you're suddenly going to getting a massive influx of players just by adding some money to it. The only way that TF2 can grow is the way it has been growing for a while; through slow and steady community efforts and frequent game updates / content. The issue with this is that at the same time that new competitive players join the scene, old ones are leaving for new games, or to move on with their lives. This has kept the TF2 scene pretty constant in size. I mean... if you add all the players who have retired back into the scene, TF2 would be absolutely massive, but sadly that isn't the case.

Valve do not even need the competitive scene to continue with TF2. We are a small form of advertising for them with our tournaments and articles, so it is worth doing a few things for us (such as adding some things to the game and some balance changes), but the majority of their money comes through public players, traders and crafters. It's better for them to spend their resources to satisfy those people and sadly there are much more cost effective ways than to throw 5 figure sums at a 6vs6 prize pool.

Overwatch is new. Players will play it. It's worth throwing money at it at the start to get people to play the game and potentially become another eSports title for Blizzard. They will invest heavily in the game and if enough people jump on board, they will continue to invest in it. Valve simply will not be willing to plough in that same level of investment. The best thing that Valve could do at this point is to let Blizzard invest in OverWatch and then introduce a TF2 sequal that can steal the overwatch player base further down the line. All speculation of course as I'm not Valve, Blizzard, nor do I know how they run their businesses.

edit: im dumb

But valve doesn't even have to throw their own money after TF2 - As an example the main dota2 prize pool is player contributed. Give players a little item or badge to profess their support and x% of the money goes into a prize pool for a competitive tournament. No need for them to even plunk down their own cash (in fact they will get even more). They need to do very little if they want to pursue that.

Competitive or casual, overwatch is a threat to their playerbase. If they have zero interest in expanding TF2 why are they bothering with matchmaking this late in the game?

Parts of what you said I aren't exactly correct. Valve aren't making matchmaking to appease the competitive community, they are doing it out of an incredibly large shift in player habits. The days of community servers are pretty much over and party matchmaking is key for any games success. This is why Valve is adding it in to the game, they are just using 6v6 as a baseline and will probably make the changes that they feel it needs.

Other things to take in to account is that Overwatch has no pre existing player base to cater too, there isn't an ageing game for it to really replace, the only similarities that TF2 has to Overwatch is that it's class based, it looks like a completely different game in many aspects.

And Valve will be willing to put the investment in this game if it's worth the return, TF2 at i55 had really good numbers, some of the Heroes of the Storm tournaments (Not a good comparison but it's the only other team based game Blizzard do that they've been throwing money at) has pretty shit numbers considering how much work they are throwing at it.

Just because Blizzard are going to be throwing money at the game doesn't mean that everyone is going to flock over to them, Blizz are becoming incredibly shaky with their new IPs and drawing in player numbers and I don't think this game will be any different, their most successful games all come from existing IPs again.

And finally, as Pheesh has said, they really don't need to plug in their own money a whole lot, Dota2 tournaments pretty much live off crowd funding stuff and referring to TI5, I think valve only put what? $1,5 Million? And it went all the way to $18 Million.

lol I mean I cant say if valve is reacting to overwatch or not, but after ignoring comp TF2 for 8 years and having 2 games that have had matchmaking for 3-5 years, I find it hard to believe this isn't at least somewhat related to overwatch. WoW/LoL/dota/csgo have had matchmaking for years, 2 of them are valve titles. They just now realize "hmm community servers are pretty much over, we should add matchmaking to tf2" ?

Also, Blizzard being shaky with new IPs ? Havent they only released heroes of the storm? That game definitely seems like a failure, but I don't think anyone can really compete with LoL/dota2 at this point. OW is kind of a new genre and its unfair to measure its chance for success with HotS poor results, considering it was an attempt to take on the two biggest games in the world. Just a completely different situation.

I agree that valve doesnt have to put much effort or investment into TF2 though. Obviously it wouldn't reach the millions like dota2, but I could see it being enough to support top players. That makes it a little sad though, all this time they could have attempted a crowd funded tournament but 8 years after release the comp tf2 community can only speculate that theres a *chance* because matchmaking is on the way.

I'm only suggesting that in my opinion, the community should be on-board at least until it is released. There's a chance it could be the game a large number of this community have been waiting for. It makes sense to get involved early, especially while it is being developed because you can get your voice heard and listened to. If Blizzard hear that the entire TF2 competitive community is interested, they might listen to our feedback in beta and we may end up with a game that is much more suited to our likings. If it doesn't work out... TF2 is still here, it's not like we have to cancel all the leagues and close down the forums.

If you don't get involved, maybe the game is a TF2 killer. Maybe the money attracts the top teams away from this game and it's too late for the TF2 voice to have any input. Maybe the public scene flock to OverWatch and Valve see no reason to continue to further develop the game after significant number drops. It becomes a game that's even further from the core TF2 values that we enjoy.

Anyway, it started as just my opinion and now it feels like I'm upsetting the whole TF2 scene, so I'll stop. I'm personally excited for the title as it feels like it will be something that I will really enjoy, and I'm excited that there's a strong chance a similar game style game may finally become a recognised eSports title with some real $$$ thrown at it. Maybe others don't feel the same and that is just fine! :).

The game was in alpha/beta last year and has only truly been released to the public during June of this year. I wouldn't say it seems like a failure to soon, it's doing decently well in viewership though not as much as many would have expected.
There are pro teams such as complexity, Cloud 9, and MVP being part of the scene, as they also have the KR's approval a bit. It'll take time for the scene to grow, but the game itself is very casual and easy to learn considering there are no items, you could really the basics of the game within about 3-5 games which is important for gaining players. If there ever was a competitor to Dota 2/LoL, HotS has the biggest chance compared to all the other MOBAs that have failed. Also I'm a Dota 2 player so hope I didn't show much bias, just my insight on HotS. In the end it's a Blizzard game that is free, so it'll do fairly well for a while I would guess, as long as they continue to update and make good changes of course.

Ah my bad, honestly It seemed like war was implying that its been a failure, and last time i saw a stream of it, it didnt have that many views. Tbh thats like one of the only games I haven't really followed though. My point still stands though, I don't think the success of HotS will have any relevance on OW.

The investment that people have in dota2 with in game items, market, workshops and custom games is huge. LoL has the same and a larger player base with people already investing a heavy amount of time and money in to it.

HotS has a F2P system which offers nothing unique compared to the other games, if Dota2 had the same F2P model as LoL it would never be where it is now. And with Blizzard adopting a similar F2P style for overwatch it very much will go down the same. And I know calling HotS a failure so soon is pretty bad but if it didn't hit the ground running and having a huge start it will eventually fall to the side.

Dota2 only had such a good start because of the way Valve handled it, give it a fucking big prizepool and get everyones attention, everyone sees the "2" after "dota" and then allow everyone to play their favourite heroes for free.

It's entirely possible this MM update nothing to do with expanding but rather maintaining to ensure that their player base doesn't all migrate to Overwatch.

Is it possible that old players will come back or new players will start playing after MM hits? Sure.

But it's entirely likely that MM is intended to keep the still large active player base from leaving the game that has essentially given them a hefty amount of free income for years now with an actual strong competitor on the horizon.

Overwatch's payment model hasn't been announced yet, they might learn from what they did wrong in hots and fix it for this game

I started off playing CS 1.6 with a little Q3 on the side, then Dota, then TF2, but at this point I have to say I can no longer play games that don't feature innate skill-based movement mechanics and twitch aim with the same amount of enjoyment I used to. I get that Overwatch has some of these things, but most of them seem to be push-button abilities that take no skill beyond targeting the ability.

As an aside, what the actual fuck at the guy who kills people with...sound? And I thought some of the cosmetics in TF2 were ridiculous.

Forgot to add; I really like their level design and setting, though I don't think some of their character design is that great.

Hopefully you have the option to buy skins/cosmetics, and not spend $20 on a hero each time it is released; having them all available will be nice but highly doubtful.

I was talking to some guys today about esports, and one guy (who will go unnamed) said that the secret about esports is that every major esport that you see today is a game that has been around for at least a decade. There aren't any major esports that are brand new games that nobody has heard of. You do have games like Rocket League that are trying to become esports, but I don't think you'll be seeing Rocket League on the main stage anytime soon.

The point still stands -- people won't watch a sport that they don't understand, and it takes time for people to learn the game. That's why the pool of traditional sports remains the same from year to year and games like field hockey or handball don't rise in popularity.

Quake / TF2 has been around for a very long time. People know the game and they have a general idea about how the rules work. So yes, Overwatch may be a new IP, but it's just another iteration on the same game that we've been playing for over a decade. This could work in the same way that Hearthstone is another version of Magic or other card games.

LoL and Heathstone

dota and magic the gathering

It's an interesting point. I don't think you need to see the same game, just _some_ familiarity. Looking at a game like League of Legends. Yes Dota was around, but do you think even a significant portion of the League of Legend's audience had an interest or understanding of how the original dota worked?

My opinion on what a game needs to become a successful eSports title is based on a few things. Firstly the public game needs to be almost the same as the competitive one. This is what gets your fans interested in how the professionals play as they are able to instantly transfer any professional ideas into their own game. Secondly, there can only be one or two of any type of game alive at any time. Thirdly the professional players need to be able to transfer their skills from a previous game into the new game. Last but not least, the game needs to be new and have hype that pulls an competitive scene and public players in at the same time.

Point 1 applies to League, Dota, CS, HotS, Starcraft II and Hearthstone. The public game is almost the same as the competitive one. Games this does not include are TF2, Battlefield and many more.

Point 2 applies to a number of games with the exception being the trio of League, Dota and HotS. This may explain why HotS is struggling because the moba market is over-saturated. Games like CS:GO have grown in popularity by the unification of the 'Realistic FPS shooter' genre. Gamers from Call of Duty and even Battlefield have moved over to CS:GO out of necessity.

Point 3. Original dota players and HoN players transferred to League and retained a large amount of their skill set. Original Dota, HoN and League players transferred to Dota 2. CoD players transferred to CS:GO. Starcraft and Warcraft 3 players transferred to Starcraft II. This meant there was instantly a professional scene and professional players didn't feel like their previous hours on a previous game were a complete waste.

Point 4: When a new game is released, professional players move to it in hope they can refine their skills early and become the best in that game (when maybe they aren't quite there in their current game). Public players jump on new games because they are new and shiny. Simultaneous hype on release between the two levels of play is a big part of what makes an eSports title.

Of course there's loads more factors. The game has to look and play well. It has to have the right systems to enable competitive play, but those 4 points are assuming that the other factors are in place to begin with.

I think Overwatch is a bit of a risk. It has enough familiarity with existing games (from different genres) on the market that people will feel quite at home while playing and watching it, however it is clearly a niche game with a market doesn't currently exist on the eSports stage and with TF2 (a non-eSport title) being its closest resemblance. The kind of player I see getting on with Overwatch are basically team FPS players who also have an interest in moba style gameplay. I'm one of those which is why the game appeals to me and I know of a fair few others in this community but I guess it isn't everyone which is fair enough. If you're a die hard FPS only fan with no interest in any other genre of game, then understandably Overwatch looks like a disaster on paper. At the same time, in a dream world, Overwatch could be the perfect unification of the FPS and Moba genres producing a game with an an absolute epic following. I don't think that would be the case, but who knows! :P.

Yes because some of the people that worked on the original dota moved over to help with LoL, even the dota allstars website forwarded to the LoL website iirc. So LoL had a large player base already tapped in to and combining that with a new moba based on a very old game you had a guaranteed success.

I think I'll try it, every game deserves a chance imo. Haven't read much on the latest iteration of it but I hope the FOV is fixed, that was my biggest issue with it.

Has anyone who played it described the DM? Is it possible to 2 shot people with your default primary as in TF2?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRQyH0H1kgg
new gameplay
warning: mute sound

You don't lose your "I Win" button on death and if you die mid-usage, you keep 50%. I'm not so sure how I feel about that, but at least the "I Win" buttons aren't as invincible as I thought. Random spread too, ech.

That fuckin Reinhardt gameplay tho lol, reminds me of playing Heavy in a pub.

I think Pharah's rockets do 120 dmg, and some classes have 600 hp or shields.

It just sucks where the skill set is heading. A lot less movement mechanics, and for some people that's what they like best about games like tf2. I know I may not like overwatch that much but that's probably because I started tf2 on jump servers rather than pubs. By watching the videos I could see people playing some of these classes with a controller.

Overall it just seems less intuitive. Sure tf2 has its oddities like uber, blast jumping, and double jumping, but nothing compared to OW. It's easy to grasp the physics of tf2.

I think that's really why some people like me don't enjoy mobas; they're really counter-intuitive and it feels a lot like learning the game rather than playing or grinding a mechanical skill. After long hours of schoolwork people like to sit down and play a game rather than think about dozens of abilities. Obviously tf2 requires thought, but it's more intuitive, easy-to-grasp thought; you don't need to worry about weird moba-like abilities that seem so foreign.

Is there damage fall off? if there isn't 600 hp isn't that much, 5 directs spammed across that map with that insane speed

The pellet scatter on certain hitscan weapons really doesn't look very fun to play with, and the game seems like it often becomes a clusterfuck of effects(a much worse clusterfuck of effects than TF2).

As for the point about TF2 players giving Blizzard feedback in order to "Mould the game into something playable by comp TF2 standards", I find that to be a little naive. The way I see it there's likely going to be as many MOBA and traditional FPS players giving "feedback" with their own agendas in mind, and for all you know they may even far outnumber the amount of TF2 players who switch to Overwatch. This of course is assuming Blizzard even takes community feedback in any meaningful sense for the purposes of balance and gameplay.

I think complaining about random spread in pellet based guns is a legitimate complaint. Its the same element that makes crits unfun to play with. Why should someone do more damage because their gun randomly shoots straighter and vice versa(why should someone do less damage because their gun randomly shoots funny). I don't think anyone is trying to mold ow into something its not. It is what it is: an fps with moba elements.

I can already hear myself in skype calls/mumble with friends in the future though complaining about how bullet spread fucked me on that last life though. Random elements in the only part of the game that seems to take any level of raw skill(aiming) is really obnoxious though.

i don't know why people think blizzard is going to listen to the community's suggestions, i mean look how hard they had to complain to get blizzard to add something as simple as a fucking fov slider to a first-person shooter. they also don't have the best track record with sc2 in terms of listening to their communties.

My point on that was referring to someone or some people's comment saying competitive TF2 players unsure about Overwatch being as fun/skill-based can join up early to influence the devs to make the game something more enjoyable for the average comp TF2 player.

I'm going to try it, largely because a lot of my friends who moved from TF2 to LoL will be playing it, and I'm lonely. However, from what I can see so far, I'm with Hellbent. The skill set doesn't look like my jam at this point in time. Awesome movement mechanics are why I love quake and source games; they add depth to the game for me, and reward players who are good. Having advanced movement on a cool-down just seems incredibly boring; there's no skill ceiling beyond timing.

It looks fun, and I will give it a shot, but MOBA's and I don't get along. If it's simply a MOBA with a first person perceptive I'm going to be disappointed.